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Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

  • No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

    Votes: 10 33.3%
  • Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

    Votes: 20 66.7%

  • Total voters
    30

CharismaticLady

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I agree. No one is saved who is not born again of the Spirit. But we still have our free will, and even though it would now be against our new nature, it is still possible to willfully sin; otherwise Paul would not have written Hebrews 10:26-39. Note there the person has been sanctified. They have received the Holy Spirit. No one without the Spirit belongs to Christ. Romans 8:9
 
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bcbsr

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And it also says, "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved." Heb 10:39 How does that fit into you soteriology? How could he predict whether people will shrink back or not? How could he predict that future event? It's because it's inevitable for true believers because of the principles of the regenerate nature. Those who are set apart as members of the visible church are not necessarily saved. Only those among them who have genuine faith in Christ are saved. Note that he speaks of those who fall away as merely having information. They received the knowledge of the truth. Doesn't mean they have Christ in them. Of apostates it is written, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 How could John say, "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us"? The same reason for Heb 10:39. Namely that its inevitable given the regenerate nature. True believers never fall away.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Shrunk back from what?? The problem is posited as a house that needs to be built, an army that must be faced. When faced with this situation, you can't count your cost and give up.

You have to count your cost, and ask for an extension of the deadline, terms of peace.

Hebrews 3
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,

8do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion,

during the time of testing in the wilderness,

9where your ancestors tested and tried me,

though for forty years they saw what I did.

10That is why I was angry with that generation;

I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,

and they have not known my ways.’

11So I declared on oath in my anger,

‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ” b

12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion.” c

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
 
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Grip Docility

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John 16:9 ; John 5:39-40
 
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Wordkeeper

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John 16:9 ; John 5:39-40
My choice of interpretation :

The people shrank back because they knew that they would have to eventually cut all links to mammon, put all their property at the feet of Peter:

Acts 5
13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

Once you leave Egypt and are following God, you have to be ready for the call.

These are the options:

Hear God's voice: choose who you will serve.

1. Some chose God.

2. Some chose to return to Egypt. They stayed in the church, but God sent leanness in their lives. Dead men walking.

3. Some chose to ask for extensions of the deadline. They had to swallow their pride, as they wilted away like a flower in the sun, or as James put it, the rich man took pride in his humiliation, as his worldly resources slowly ran out.

4. Some chose to pretend they heard the call, and had cut all links to mammon, but kept a secret stash. This was so wrong, as it was a contamination of the House of God.
 
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Phil W

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He either did, or Scripture lied.
Which scripture says that he endured till the end?

We fail, God doesn’t! Isn’t it time you allowed that mustard seed to become the massive tree God wills it to be?
If we are born of God, we won't fail either.
New creatures don't fail.
Those with the seed of God in them don't fail.
A true repentance precludes failure.
By "fail", I "mean commit sin".
 
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Phil W

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If you? You have that much confidence in your Carnal endurance?
What do you mean by "carnal endurance"?

I don’t say I’m saved based on me. I know I’m Saved because of WHO He Is!
Where’s your mustard seed, brother? Isn’t it time your faith grew so tall, it offers relief to others?
If it was all God's doings, you would be right.
But we have our part to play.

How many will use your line of thought to justify getting the mark of the beast?
I mean, if "I am saved...permanently", so a mark doesn't mean anything!
We have choices to make everyday that will be used to determine our salvation.
 
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Phil W

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Correct.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
 
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CharismaticLady

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How can an unregenerate be sanctified?
 
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Grip Docility

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Personally, I don’t think anyone that exalts Christ... Genuinely would “Take that Mark”.

Choices? I chose to live and die for Belief in Jesus Christ’s Work... and trust His Holy Spirit... to finish the work He started within me, when I asked Jesus into my heart and placed His Will over mine, despite my Carnal frailty.
 
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Grip Docility

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Correct.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

Oh, but the Fig Tree did bear the root of the grape vine.

Jesus can take Stone Jars filled with water and turn it to... wait for it... Delicious Wine.
 
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Grip Docility

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How can an unregenerate be sanctified?

The word “unregenerate” theologically binds to Romans 1 use of the word Reprobate... have the people that anchor to this idea ventured into Romans 2:1-2?
 
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Grip Docility

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Which scripture says that he endured till the end?


If we are born of God, we won't fail either.
New creatures don't fail.
Those with the seed of God in them don't fail.
A true repentance precludes failure.
By "fail", I "mean commit sin".

The one where Paul declared them “Saved” if x... and they did x.

And... This idea of perfect Carnal Obedience Being insinuated is the root of the issue, is it not?
 
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CharismaticLady

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The word “unregenerate” theologically binds to Romans 1 use of the word Reprobate... have the people that anchor to this idea ventured into Romans 2:1-2?

I'm using "unregenerate" as in not born again of the Spirit. They are not sanctified.
 
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Phil W

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Who is "her/she"?

The thief lacked nothing.
He met the requirements for salvation, was paid the "wages of sin"-death, was crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and Jesus promised that he would be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life....just like our baptism into Christ and into His death. {Rom 6:3-6)
If the thief held on to his faith unto death, all of Jesus' promises would be granted.
 
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Grip Docility

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I'm using "unregenerate" as in not born again of the Spirit. They are sanctified.

The root of this type of argument lies in the conflation of Sanctification and Justification.

We are saved and sealed (Justified) the instant we abide in HIM.

Sanctification is a process that goes forward till death and has no salvational bearing ... as God doesn’t lose what is placed in His hands by those that fall on their knees in repentance, in response to 1 John 2:2
 
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Phil W

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The one where Paul declared them “Saved” if x... and they did x.
Doing x doesn't mean y and z will be done.
Didn't Paul say a bunch more while the jailer dressed his wounds?
Don't you think the jailer asked "What lord"?

And... This idea of perfect Carnal Obedience Being insinuated is the root of the issue, is it not?
That is the message of the NT.
Freedom from the oppressor. (John 8:34)
 
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