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I prefer Orthodox beliefs, they’re more straightforward and don’t require jumping around from one verse in one book to another verse in another book to determine what was clearly said by Jesus. You see there’s no secret code to what Jesus was saying. It’s a simple discussion of the importance of bearing fruit and abiding in Christ. There’s no hidden meaning.
I will confess... I do not believe in the disabling of man’s will... and in this sense... I do not subscribe to the specific doctrine of total depravity.
What allows you and I to theologically be in step is a mechanism I note, called “Privation”.
“Privation”
(a state in which things that are essential for human well-being such as food and warmth are scarce or lacking.)
What this means to me is that in Eden, mankind was in the True Vine... theologically speaking. Mankind had all provision of Food, Health, Wealth, Love, Companionship, Selfless Authority and Sustenance... etc. etc. This included access to the Tree Of Life. I see the Tree Of Life as literal and simultaneously a symbol of Being In the Son. Mind you... the “did man eat of the Tree” Question spawns debates of all types... but is irrelevant to this point.
Mankind was deceived... (Specifically Eve) by a malevolent Force Of corrupted Will, as in Will that was so arrogant it fancied itself as wise as God!
This malevolent Force convinces Eve to join in its arrogance. People read Romans 1 to condemn a certain group of sinners... but the actual context is Temple prostitution. Leave it to mankind to fixate on the Carnal and ignore the Spiritual!
Spiritually speaking... Eve became Spiritually unfaithful to God and bound to Satan as her governing leader. She was literally subject to “Death”... which is a fine name for the Deceiver with all scripture taken into context. (We turn to dust and his curse was to “eat dust”)
Temple prostitution on the other hand wasn’t just a Spiritual infidelity, but people that literally thought sexually joining themselves to the Religious elite would draw them closer to God! This is why the Romans 1 Verbiage circles towards placing the Creation over the Creator!
When Paul talks about fornication with a prostitute... he is likening joining with a false gospel to Copulating with a temple priest!
You know how “gentle” Paul is with his analogies,This even binds to “cutting the whole thing off”... because Paul is calling people of false gospels... “harlots”... sexually joined to one another... which Disgusts Paul so much he wishes they would be unable to blaspheme God with their wicked False Gospels! (Unable to join to one another)
The male aspect of the analogy binds to men who speak in place of God and thus declare themselves ... “God”... and thus teach other men to join in their Pride. This removes the “female” subordination of the “marriage” from the equation of Hebrew Patriarchy (Always intended to point to God) and makes all members of a Prostitute Body, Men “Joined” to men! These men place their faith in one another and thusly are an abominable body comprised of Creations that have placed the Creation over the Creator and thus are turned over to “Their Reprobate Minds”.
These people are of the same Spiritual type as those that sacrificed their children to Ba’al! They are Murderous of Spiritual Truth and Blaspheme the Blessed Hope.
Round about to say... No man has responded to Privation without Sinning except the Son Of God, God the Son... (Proven in the wilderness) thus proving God is the Champion and defender of Humanity... not only because He is our Creator and Savior, but He is the only perfectly Selfless Being in all of Existence. In the face of Privation, God does not choose SELF. He is Infinite in Being, in every wonderful way and able, by His Will, to know Evil and never choose it!
Bottom line, other than God the Son, The Son Of God, mankind proves itself selfish and thus sinful, in the flesh... Daily.
IMO... in knowledge that our mechanisms of understanding probably differ here.
I figured now was a fair time to share my insanity.
I differ in the sense that I believe Genesis was literal when it said that God has finished all his works from the beginning to the end.
Me personally I find the miracle of our existence so outside the realm of imagination that it could not have been anything short of the act of an all powerful being such as God.
I have had a number of experiences in life which reaffirm this type of belief. The idea of "Working all things for good to those who believe" encompasses everything that we witness to in life. This is where I believe Jobs understanding comes into play, when faced with the sheer magnitude of his circumstance he did not for one second yield into giving the glory to God even for the things which he now suffered, and when God finally responded to him, God openly rebuked him by humbling his heart before his utter majesty.
It is similar to the arguments that God cannot be allowed to be credited for evil. Which I agree, but that does not explain the fact that God was the one who created the angels such as Lucifer who afflict us, and only by God's permission they can touch us. The gospel speaks to this idea when men give power to evil, by allowing it operate as an independent entity of thought, instead of part of God's will to glorify himself.
I use the analogy of jumping off of a roof. You can make the choice to jump, but nothing is going to stop you from hitting the ground.
What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."
Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?
The Bible clearly says that one who is born of God does not commit sin (1 John 5:18) The idea here is committing sin as a usual practice or habitually. The one who is truly born again, born of the Holy Spirit, a new creature in Christ, and led by the Holy Spirit, has a new mind that thinks righteously and a new heart that loves God and hates sin. Sin is distasteful to him. Is he perfect? Of course not. Yet his life is framed, not in sin, but in obedience to God out of love for God!
Good point.Not necessary, only those who follow the leading of the Holy Spirit are called sons of God.
I'm sorry you had to dilute scripture with your additions.The Bible clearly says that one who is born of God does not commit sin (1 John 5:18) The idea here is committing sin as a usual practice or habitually. The one who is truly born again, born of the Holy Spirit, a new creature in Christ, and led by the Holy Spirit, has a new mind that thinks righteously and a new heart that loves God and hates sin. Sin is distasteful to him. Is he perfect? Of course not. Yet his life is framed, not in sin, but in obedience to God out of love for God!
I'm sorry you had to dilute scripture with your additions.
If the bible says one who is born of God doesn't commit sin, it means no sin at all.
Or are you saying that fig trees CAN bring forth grapes?
Seeds only bring forth of their own kind...including God's seed from which men are to be reborn.
I'm sorry you had to dilute scripture with your additions.
If the bible says one who is born of God doesn't commit sin, it means no sin at all.
Or are you saying that fig trees CAN bring forth grapes?
Seeds only bring forth of their own kind...including God's seed from which men are to be reborn.
You've got this backwards: I'm not the one blaming God, I blame humans. But a theology that says humans have no choice in the matter of being evil, and then are held accountable for that evil anyway to the degree of being eternally punished for it, places the real blame squarely on God. That is a confused theology.And here is your other error: no one who seeks God does so in absence of His will. We don't seek God period because we don't want God. That is the state of all humanity. That is what it means to be dead in trespass and sin.
See you are assuming there is something inherently naturally spiritually "good", "awake" or "alive" in man. Some "spark" that brings about spiritual life. But the truth of the reality is that does not exist. Dead men have no will. One has to be made alive in order to have a will to act upon. Because your will is affected by both your sin as well as your fallen nature - it's not "free". None of us have a "free will" as it pertains to God's demands for us to obey.
Now obviously in this life, you do have the ability to make choices independent of the desires of others (God included); but that is not a "free will" in theological terms because those choices are driven by a nature totally corrupted by sin. That is what "total depravity" is; but "total depravity" is not the same thing as being
sin they've committed. Those are the wages they earned.
Now you could argue; (which you seem to be with this "just throw them in hell at the beginning of creation" statement) that because of the fallen nature and being dead in trespass and sin that "Oh this is God's fault anyway because I don't have a free will." Though you'd have no justification of accusing God because the fall was man's choice and if you were Adam, you would have made the same decision he did. (That is why the fall was inevitable.)
You'd certainly have reason to despair if God did not provided a redemption plan. But you have nothing to complain about because God is gracious enough to not only address the wrath of God aspect of your predicament; but also the dead in trespass and sin aspect of your predicament. If you can't believe and God was not willing to make you able; that would certainly be cause for great despair. But that is not the case! So... maybe you should thank God instead of being mad at him for your own state of deadness.
So, why not send an innocent human into an evil world where injustices and crimes are committed by evil creatures?
Well you know what - THAT is exactly what happened to Jesus Christ! God "throws" His only begotten Son into a created world where - what happens? He get's murdered! Now obviously he was not 5 years old when this happened, yet he was morally more innocent than any 5 year old of the first Adam. And of course we can't "blame" God the Father when the Son agreed to willingly take on this task back before creation ever commenced.
Yet to address the evil of humans who rape and kill 5 year olds. You level these accusations against God claiming He is evil; yet if that were true, you would not be offended by people who rape and murder 5 year olds. It's quite the fallacy to accuse God of being evil because humanity is. Yet in the end, your accusation does nothing to God because you are not eternal and self existent. So, of what ever accusation you desire to throw at Him - He's where the buck stops!
Let me ask you this, please...After your sin or sins are forgiven can you not say you have no sin?So you are sinless???? I hope for your sake that you answer no. Otherwise you contradict plain Scripture: 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Jesus taught us to pray, forgive us our (sins) as we forgive those who sin against us" (Matthew 6:12). Did Jesus deceive us?? Beware of being a messenger for doctrines of demons.
[/QUOTE]You've got this backwards: I'm not the one blaming God, I blame humans. But a theology that says humans have no choice in the matter of being evil, and then are held accountable for that evil anyway to the degree of being eternally punished for it, places the real blame squarely on God. That is a confused theology.
Anyway, yes, fallen man is described as dead, but also asleep and in need of awakening, wounded and in need of healing, lost and in need of being found. He cannot find himself; he doesn't even know where to look and if can take time before he even realized he's lost, if he ever does. But he can come to sense that something's lacking-that's the real purpose of this world in fact, where the Master's effectively gone away. And yes, he dies still have a trace if that divine spark and if we're willing and hi est we can see it in even the most wounded of us. And so God uses all this to appeal to us as He calls and draws us. It's a matter of both man's seeking and God's calling, even if, again, the sheep will never find the Shepherd on their own. God created man a noble being, worthy of great dignity and respect even if we may act worse than beasts at times. But a are created good, as everything in creation, and God loves man lavishly, beyond our ability to imagine but made as evident as possible by His willingness to endure an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh at the hands of His own creation if that's what it takes to price a love that should never have had to be proved. The Cross is nothing if not an inviation, a blantant demonstration of God's sheer unwillingness to force His will upon man, an offer that we can navigate towards if and when we're willing-or not. If we don't get it by now that God never forces His will upon us we'll remain open to very confused false gospels.
Let me ask you this, please...After your sin or sins are forgiven can you not say you have no sin?
My sins were forgiven, and I continue to walk in the light...which is God. and there is no sin in God.
1 John 1 is addressing two very different kinds of men and their walks.
One is in darkness, sin. (Pro 4:19)
The other is in the light, God; wherein is no sin.
I don't commit sin because I don't walk in darkness...thanks be to God!
Can you provide a scripture that attests that anybody, besides Jesus, was sinless in the OT times Jesus walked the earth?I’ll move into blunt mode. IMO... The ones that approached Jesus as Sinless were the ones that rejected Him.
Can you provide scripture that disproves this?
Thanks.I’ll provide scripture that supports my stance.
Matthew 23
I realize those in authority over the Jews thought themselves righteous, but it was by the standards of the Law.
The Law made nobody righteous
But that is all OT stuff, shadows of what we can partake of now in the NT...thanks be to God 1!
Can you provide a scripture that attests that anybody, besides Jesus, was sinless in the OT times Jesus walked the earth?
They were all still men of the flesh, and nobody could yet walk in the Spirit.
It took Jesus' death and resurrection for that to happen.
Rebirth allows it...thanks be to God!
Thanks.
I realize those in authority over the Jews thought themselves righteous, but it was by the standards of the Law.
The Law made nobody righteous
But that is all OT stuff, shadows of what we can partake of now in the NT...thanks be to God 1!
If one remains in the light, there will be no more sin to cleanse.Gotcha!!! 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. Note the 'present' tense cleanses. The cleansing is present and *continuous.*
If one remains in the light, there will be no more sin to cleanse.
Men cannot hop back and forth between light and darkness, though they may think they can.
Those in darkness, sin, cannot say they have fellowship with God. (1 John 1:6)
Let me ask you this, please...After your sin or sins are forgiven can you not say you have no sin?
My sins were forgiven, and I continue to walk in the light...which is God. and there is no sin in God.
1 John 1 is addressing two very different kinds of men and their walks.
One is in darkness, sin. (Pro 4:19)
The other is in the light, God; wherein is no sin.
I don't commit sin because I don't walk in darkness...thanks be to God!
I think that people do not understand that there are two basic forms of sin; commission and omission. Commission is doing that we ought not do. Omission is failing to do that which ought to do. Nobody can honestly claim that the are perfect. Thus they must admit to one or the other sorts of sins or, as is usually the case, both.Is dishonesty a sin?
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