Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Grip Docility]

 

[Phil W]

This is Pelagian doctrine, not orthodox Reformed.

Sorry, I don't read code words.
Think about it...if someone holds something as more dear than Jesus Christ or God His Father...isn't that idolatry?

 

[Grip Docility]

Sorry, I don't read code words.
Think about it...if someone holds something as more dear than Jesus Christ or God His Father...isn't that idolatry?

I’m not speaking towards your cloak of Christ’s Righteousness, but your Carnal flesh...

Are you sinlessly perfect in thought, deed, heart and action?

 

[Phil W]

I read Pealgian writings on Grace that were amazing, then I read where he got duplicitous.
I’m going to just say it... Sinless doctrine rarely leads anywhere good, and by rarely, I mean never!
That old Isaiah 14:14 pops up!

Then Jesus died for nothing, and we are still in bondage to sin and the Law.
"For by the Law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20)
Paul writes..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

 

[Phil W]

Water baptism is nothing more than a ceremonial public acknowledgment that one has received Christ as Saviour. It has no intrinsic spiritual or mystical effect on a believer.

Scripture, please.

Jesus is the living bread from heaven. He is the Person who has saved us, and He is the One who through the indwelling Holy Spirit causes us to grow in grace and our sanctification.

Kind of a derail, but, Amen.

 

[Grip Docility]

Then Jesus died for nothing, and we are still in bondage to sin and the Law.
"For by the Law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20)
Paul writes..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

If you can be sinlessly perfect in your tent of death... than Christ died for no thing. You still haven’t answered if you are sinlessly perfect in word, thought, deed and heart, in your literal flesh.

The context of 1 Corinthians 15 is death and resurrection into our new bodies.

As in... 6 feet under! Absent from the Body, present with the Lord.

Do you deny that?

 

[Phil W]

You are talking about the fake, Mickey Mouse Baptism.

Agreed.
Baptism without a turn from sin is just a bath.

This Baptism is "actionable".

Functional, practical, effective, utile, and commanded by both Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Phil W]

The two greatest errors in our churches today are legalism and antinomianism.
Legalism demands Justification by perfect compliance to the Law

Which has already been shown to be impossible.

Antinomianism say that because we are Justified we don't have to worry about the Law at all but can live just as we please and sin as much as we like.
Both are shortcuts to hell.

Amen.

Justification is by faith in Christ alone and not by the Law.
But those who are genuinely Justified, love Christ and His Law.
Therefore Sanctification is by the Law and not by faith alone. Sanctification requires obedience to the Law but knows that it will never be perfect obedience to it

Scriptures, please.
I would like to add..."Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb 10:29)
Also..."By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:14)

Those who hold to the notion that we are sanctified by faith because we are in "the Spirit" is antinomianism in another form and is another pathway to hell.

What is the manifestation of sanctification? ie...set apart, atoned for, made holy, consecrated?
Wouldn't it be a life free from sin?

 

[Phil W]

The 10 commandments are the Law of Moses of which Paul said, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

I don't agree, as there is much more in "the book of the law" than just ten commandments.

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

We can see from this that there is a difference between believers of the OT and NT.
The OT folks tried to please God by adhering to the Law and customs...and never able to comply.
The NT folks DO please God by adhering to the law of Christ...love God above and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Why could the OT folks not succeed?
They were not given the ability to cast off the flesh, to permanently turn from sin, to walk in the Spirit, or to crucify and bury the flesh and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
NT folks have no excuse not to succeed.

 

[Phil W]

But you've been claiming essentially that you and the rest of us are not presently saved, but rather that ones salvation status will be determined after death based upon ones performance. That's a completely different gospel than what Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

The key to your wonderful verse is this..."and believes Him who sent me".
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin...in John 8:32-34.
Do you believe it?

 

[Phil W]

So you are without sin and do not sin, in word, thought or deed and are carnally perfect, now, apart from Christ’s imputed Righteousness, in your very flesh?

Not apart from Christ's imputed righteousness, but in affirmation of it.
His righteousness is manifested in me every time I find the escapes from temptation promised by God. (1 Cor 10:13)
New creatures don't sin...that is the old creature's way.
Those walking in the light, God, are not walking in darkness/sin.
There is no darkness in God.

Where is the imputed righteousness of God manifested by the sinners?

 

[Phil W]

Would you submit your thoughts, deeds, words and heart as Sinlessly Perfect, apart from Jesus Christ’s imputed Righteousness... according to your flesh?

My "flesh" was killed and buried with Christ at my water baptism. (Rom 6:3-6)
I am reborn of God's seed...which cannot bear evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

 

[Phil W]

I’m not speaking towards your cloak of Christ’s Righteousness, but your Carnal flesh...

Again, my flesh was killed, and I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

Are you sinlessly perfect in thought, deed, heart and action?

Yes, to the praise and glory of God, and in thanksgiving to the Lord who allowed me to take part in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
God has allowed us to manifest the effects of the NT.
Do you?

 

[Phil W]

If you can be sinlessly perfect in your tent of death... than Christ died for no thing. You still haven’t answered if you are sinlessly perfect in word, thought, deed and heart, in your literal flesh.

"Tent of death"...colorful language, but not quite realistic.
As Paul writes..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
So technically...it is His "tent of life".

The context of 1 Corinthians 15 is death and resurrection into our new bodies.

Primarily the resurrection of our bodies.

As in... 6 feet under! Absent from the Body, present with the Lord.

Absent from the body that was buried at our demise. But present with the Lord, as it is He who raises us up.

Do you deny that?

Not at all. Though other topics are also broached.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't know why you think I believe in having the cart before the horse. Struggle with sin is before Christ. But when you cry out to Jesus to save you from your sin, He takes the desire for sin away, and gives you the power of the Holy Spirit to start your walk in holiness. You think I'm saying we must be holy in order to receive the Holy Spirit. I'm not. But, on the other hand, after all your sins are forgiven and you have been given the Holy Spirit, we must keep advancing, and not fall back into sin, for without holiness, no man shall see God.

Your last sentence describes the progressive sanctification I am talking about. I used to think that I was okay and didn't have to struggle with sin - until I went through my storm and stress years when my life turned to custard and I realised that I wasn't as good as I thought I was. It was a time that I realised that I was depending on my self-righteousness based on my performance instead of on the death and resurrection of Christ. During that time, I couldn't understand how, when in my heart all I wanted to do was to follow Christ and be the person He wanted me to be, and yet I found myself falling far short of His standards. It was then that I said to the Lord that the only way I was going to show that I was qualified to get to heaven was that Jesus died for me. He told me, "That's all you need." and then He said, "By the way, that's all you ever needed".

I don't know about you, but during those storm and stress years I actually experienced Paul's Romans 7 experience, and that changed my whole attitude to my performance and God's grace and mercy. We all have to go through it if we are going to be fit for heaven, so maybe your time is still coming.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"Tent of death"...colorful language, but not quite realistic.
As Paul writes..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
So technically...it is His "tent of life".


Primarily the resurrection of our bodies.


Absent from the body that was buried at our demise. But present with the Lord, as it is He who raises us up.


Not at all. Though other topics are also broached.

All this is great in theory and it is usually held by those who have never gone through a time when their Christian life has turned to custard and that they fully realise that there is no good thing in themselves and they are, in practice and reality, totally dependent on God's grace and mercy just to get into heaven, let alone be able to do anything for the Lord in this life.

Humility is not a pleasant experience, but it is a much more valuable experience than any Charismatic experience anyone can have. God resists the proud who think they are getting somewhere in their Christian experience and have amassed some brownie points with the Lord, but he gives grace to to the humble who realise that they are poor sinners and nothing at all, but Jesus Christ is their all in all.

The Charismatic "hallelujah hootenanny" types avoid that type of experience because it doesn't fit their happy, happy, sensory experiences, so they dream up the theory that because all their sins are forgiven and they have the Holy Spirit in them, they don't have to fight and struggle against their own sinful flesh. They've never experienced Paul's saying that the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, because they are in a state of denial about that struggle and fight in themselves, and are using the Scripture as an excuse.

 

[Grip Docility]

"Tent of death"...colorful language, but not quite realistic.
As Paul writes..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
So technically...it is His "tent of life".


Primarily the resurrection of our bodies.


Absent from the body that was buried at our demise. But present with the Lord, as it is He who raises us up.


Not at all. Though other topics are also broached.

Paul called it a tent and a body of death. But you probably knew that.

 

[Grip Docility]

Not apart from Christ's imputed righteousness, but in affirmation of it.
His righteousness is manifested in me every time I find the escapes from temptation promised by God. (1 Cor 10:13)
New creatures don't sin...that is the old creature's way.
Those walking in the light, God, are not walking in darkness/sin.
There is no darkness in God.

Where is the imputed righteousness of God manifested by the sinners?

I have to be real... I smell Tom foolery.

 

[Grip Docility]

Again, my flesh was killed, and I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.


Yes, to the praise and glory of God, and in thanksgiving to the Lord who allowed me to take part in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
God has allowed us to manifest the effects of the NT.
Do you?

I’m sure 1 John 1:8-10 is a minor inconvenience that simply has to be “commentaried” out of the picture?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Practically speaking though, this is only determinate upon whether or not there's genuine obedience. I think it's beneficial to recognize that our express use of language may be inadequate to articulate a truth living within us.

The Scripture supports genuine obedience for Christian believers, but accepts the reality that total obedience is not possible in this life.