Does this Question Invalidate Arminianism/Wesleyanism?

[jinc1019]

Hi Everyone,

I'm not trying to start any Calvinist/Arminian battles here, but there is one issue I have with Arminianism that I just cannot get past and was wondering if anyone here who is an Arminian/Wesleyan can provide a different perspective.

Question: Even if we imagine that all human beings have absolute free will (and I'm not saying Arminians believe this), and thus every single human chooses to accept or reject Christianity freely, because God is absolutely all-knowing and all-powerful, chose THIS universe with all of the events that would ever occur throughout history when God could have chosen among an infinite other possible universes. In other words, even if free will is absolute and salvation is conditional, God knew when he created the universe how the universe would turn out and still CHOSE this universe instead of another. God could have created the universe in any other way, but this is the universe God allowed to exist, even if everything that happens is the result of "free" choices.

Doesn't this basically invalidate all of Arminianism?

Thanks and God bless.

-Justin

 

[dayhiker]

This doesn't invalidate free choice in my mind. God knows what decision we are going to make before we make them. Thus is we are to make a different choice God would know that we well.

I think God choice this world because in the end it gets His creation to where He wants it. I don't see God wanting robots that He programs, that wouldn't be being created in His image. God wants relationships and so He created people that could create a dynamic relationship and love Him as He first loved us.

 

[jinc1019]

This doesn't invalidate free choice in my mind. God knows what decision we are going to make before we make them. Thus is we are to make a different choice God would know that we well.

I think God choice this world because in the end it gets His creation to where He wants it. I don't see God wanting robots that He programs, that wouldn't be being created in His image. God wants relationships and so He created people that could create a dynamic relationship and love Him as He first loved us.

Hi! Thanks for responding. I don't disagree with anything you said (except the first part). I agree that God wants a relationship, which requires some freedom, but my point is that logically, I don't see how it's possible God, at the very least, CHOSE one group over another.

Think about it: If God knew everything that would happen before creating the universe, God could have created a different universe if he was unhappy with some aspect of how THIS universe would exist. The very fact that God CHOSE this universe instead of some other universe is evidence that God is pleased with his choice. If God wanted some person to have faith who now doesn't, he could have just created a different universe that's exactly the same except that person freely chooses faith because of different circumstances, etc.

 

[ServantJohn]

Hi! Thanks for responding. I don't disagree with anything you said (except the first part). I agree that God wants a relationship, which requires some freedom, but my point is that logically, I don't see how it's possible God, at the very least, CHOSE one group over another.

Think about it: If God knew everything that would happen before creating the universe, God could have created a different universe if he was unhappy with some aspect of how THIS universe would exist. The very fact that God CHOSE this universe instead of some other universe is evidence that God is pleased with his choice. If God wanted some person to have faith who now doesn't, he could have just created a different universe that's exactly the same except that person freely chooses faith because of different circumstances, etc.

It seems to me to actually validate Arminianism. God could have chosen to create circumstances that in effect remove free will or give an allusion of free will where the will is so manipulated as to remove any semblance of actual choice (sounds Calvinistic doesn't it), but He didn't.

 

[jinc1019]

It seems to me to actually validate Arminianism. God could have chosen to create circumstances that in effect remove free will or give an allusion of free will where the will is so manipulated as to remove any semblance of actual choice (sounds Calvinistic doesn't it), but He didn't.

I see your point, but it's not really addressing my question. Even if everyone has free will, God still, at the very least, saw before creating this universe who would say yes and who wouldn't. Thus, God CHOSE this universe and not any other potential universes where more or less people could have had faith for any number of reasons.

 

[ServantJohn]

I see your point, but it's not really addressing my question. Even if everyone has free will, God still, at the very least, saw before creating this universe who would say yes and who wouldn't. Thus, God CHOSE this universe and not any other potential universes where more or less people could have had faith for any number of reasons.

Oh, I thought the question was "Does this Question Invalidate Arminianism/Wesleyanism?"

 

[jinc1019]

Oh, I thought the question was "Does this Question Invalidate Arminianism/Wesleyanism?"

It is! Doesn't it? Arminianism relies on the idea that God doesn't choose who will have faith and who will not...but my point is, by choosing this existence, God has chosen that all those who now have faith will have faith. God could have chosen another universe where a whole different set of people have faith, but he didn't. He chose this one.

 

[ServantJohn]

It is! Doesn't it? Arminianism relies on the idea that God doesn't choose who will have faith and who will not...but my point is, by choosing this existence, God has chosen that all those who now have faith will have faith. God could have chosen another universe where a whole different set of people have faith, but he didn't. He chose this one.

OK, just because this looks to be a bit entertaining. I will actually argue that there are no other possible universes that would fulfill all of God's purposes as this one does and ask you to prove there is. My support would be that in everything God created, He said it was good. I know of no other possible universe that has God's stamp of approval nor can I know.

 

[ParentofChildren]

Hi Everyone,

I'm not trying to start any Calvinist/Arminian battles here, but there is one issue I have with Arminianism that I just cannot get past and was wondering if anyone here who is an Arminian/Wesleyan can provide a different perspective.

Question: Even if we imagine that all human beings have absolute free will (and I'm not saying Arminians believe this), and thus every single human chooses to accept or reject Christianity freely, because God is absolutely all-knowing and all-powerful, chose THIS universe with all of the events that would ever occur throughout history when God could have chosen among an infinite other possible universes. In other words, even if free will is absolute and salvation is conditional, God knew when he created the universe how the universe would turn out and still CHOSE this universe instead of another. God could have created the universe in any other way, but this is the universe God allowed to exist, even if everything that happens is the result of "free" choices.

Doesn't this basically invalidate all of Arminianism?

Thanks and God bless.

-Justin

He CHOSE this universe to seed life with the freedom to build up, or tare down, laugh or cry, etc... God created no unclean things. He created man with a little piece of emptiness that only he can fill. It was his design so we would look for him. When we accept Christ we are full. IMHO <><

 

[Dave-W]

IMO the whole question of possible alternate universes is moot. God created this one. We have no information that He considered alternatives.

Now as to free will vs pre-knowledge, it seems to me to be a false dichotomy. Someone can know a thing without influencing that thing.

So that means God can know if you or I will choose Him or something else at every point in our lives WITHOUT predetermining or influencing those choices. He just weaves it all into HIS ultimate plan.

 

[circuitrider]

IMO the whole question of possible alternate universes is moot. God created this one. We have no information that He considered alternatives.

Now as to free will vs pre-knowledge, it seems to me to be a false dichotomy. Someone can know a thing without influencing that thing.

So that means God can know if you or I will choose Him or something else at every point in our lives WITHOUT predetermining or influencing those choices. He just weaves it all into HIS ultimate plan.

Agreed DaveW-Ohev. Pre-knowledge is not pre-action or pre-determination.

As to God's ultimate plan, I believe God's plan is that God desires that none perish but that all come to life. But because he has given us free will I don't think that is what is going to happen.

When God gave us free will God gave up making everything come out in each individual human life how God wants it to come out. Otherwise there really is no free will. It just becomes an illusion.

Or I suppose to could say that God's ultimate plan is that we get to choose.

 

[Qyöt27]

This is one of those areas where theology's ability to fully address the issue breaks down, IMO. I'd argue that arguing about multiple universes is pointless as well, not because of the idea that we only know the one we're in right now, but because I honestly don't see it being a topic Scripture addresses.

There's lots of different perspectives on what sparked things off anyway. It's human pride that says that God created all of this specifically for us; the old 'pinnacle of creation' argument, which is very damaging to our ability to reason. It's just as likely that the creation (I'm using this lightly; I'm not a Creationist in any way, shape, or form) originated from God's natural creative urges without any planned 'end game' at all. There's nothing about trying to intersect with the Anthropic principle or some theological variant of it, it simply happens (and one can make the argument that this is just as likely, given the whole point of Man being in the image of God; we know we have that creative urge, so...). Arminianism doesn't address anything like this, AFAIK, so poking at the topic is not really capable of 'invalidating' it.

I'm not even going to bring up the idea of Open Theism, because while that sits perfectly fine in such a situation, that idea is more of an outcropping of Evangelical theology than it is from any of the others (also, the lion's share of the controversy surrounding Open Theism is from the Evangelical camp). Supposedly, there are traditional strains of classical theism that don't set themselves up in a paradox about God's 'omni-' attributes because they pre-date the marriage of Platonic idealism with Christianity. So you don't even necessarily have to go as far as Open Theism does in order to resolve the dissonance.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Hi Everyone,

I'm not trying to start any Calvinist/Arminian battles here, but there is one issue I have with Arminianism that I just cannot get past and was wondering if anyone here who is an Arminian/Wesleyan can provide a different perspective.

Question: Even if we imagine that all human beings have absolute free will (and I'm not saying Arminians believe this), and thus every single human chooses to accept or reject Christianity freely, because God is absolutely all-knowing and all-powerful, chose THIS universe with all of the events that would ever occur throughout history when God could have chosen among an infinite other possible universes. In other words, even if free will is absolute and salvation is conditional, God knew when he created the universe how the universe would turn out and still CHOSE this universe instead of another. God could have created the universe in any other way, but this is the universe God allowed to exist, even if everything that happens is the result of "free" choices.

Doesn't this basically invalidate all of Arminianism?

Thanks and God bless.

-Justin

This doesn't invalidate free choice in my mind. God knows what decision we are going to make before we make them. Thus is we are to make a different choice God would know that we well.

I think God choice this world because in the end it gets His creation to where He wants it. I don't see God wanting robots that He programs, that wouldn't be being created in His image. God wants relationships and so He created people that could create a dynamic relationship and love Him as He first loved us.

Hi! Thanks for responding. I don't disagree with anything you said (except the first part). I agree that God wants a relationship, which requires some freedom, but my point is that logically, I don't see how it's possible God, at the very least, CHOSE one group over another.

Think about it: If God knew everything that would happen before creating the universe, God could have created a different universe if he was unhappy with some aspect of how THIS universe would exist. The very fact that God CHOSE this universe instead of some other universe is evidence that God is pleased with his choice. If God wanted some person to have faith who now doesn't, he could have just created a different universe that's exactly the same except that person freely chooses faith because of different circumstances, etc.

Does God knowing how things are going to work out mean that God foreordains them just because he could change the working out of history but does not? I don't think so. Imagine this, tomorrow the final game of the NCAA tournament is to be played for the year. Now, God who knows all things is already aware of how that game will be played out even though it is a day off. According to your theory, if God could choose between two options and chooses only one of them (thus rejecting the other) this means that God must have an actual preference for the one that occurs. Since only one of the two teams can win, and since God is aware of it and is not choosing the history in which the other team wins, then it must mean that God has a preference for the winning team. Not only a preference for them, but that in every sporting event that has ever taken place, God has an interest and a preference and has chosen that particular winner. It also means that God has chosen all of the accidents that have ever taken place. All of the injustices that have ever taken place. Indeed, that there is no event in history, including the sins individuals have committed that God not only didn't choose, but actually forordained. In other words God was the cause behind every action, every reaction, every choice, every thought, every good deed, every bad deed, every sin, including those of Stalin, Hitler, and Judas. For, in the world you have proposed, people have as much freedom to resist sin if God so wills it (and we would only sin if God wills it) as a stone does to resist the law of gravity and float in the air of its own free will. It has none and so it follows the law of gravity, and every falling stone is evidence of that law. And by the same token, every sin would be evidence of God's willing of a person to sin if there is no such a thing as free will.

And yet, though God foreordained all of these events by all of these people, including yours and my actions that he judged to be sins. We, not God, are held responsible for them.

Does that sound like the God you know who calls us to repent and choose a different way to live? Especially when, if things are like you said, I have been living exactly as God has willed for me to live in every respect of my life and its history and I cannot repent of my own free will, but only if God wills for me to. The God you describe is a demigod, not the God who calls men to himself, but at the same time allows me to "choose for yourself this day whom you will serve."

 

[lori milne]

Does God knowing how things are going to work out mean that God foreordains them just because he could change the working out of history but does not? I don't think so. Imagine this, tomorrow the final game of the NCAA tournament is to be played for the year. Now, God who knows all things is already aware of how that game will be played out even though it is a day off. According to your theory, if God could choose between two options and chooses only one of them (thus rejecting the other) this means that God must have an actual preference for the one that occurs. Since only one of the two teams can win, and since God is aware of it and is not choosing the history in which the other team wins, then it must mean that God has a preference for the winning team. Not only a preference for them, but that in every sporting event that has ever taken place, God has an interest and a preference and has chosen that particular winner. It also means that God has chosen all of the accidents that have ever taken place. All of the injustices that have ever taken place. Indeed, that there is no event in history, including the sins individuals have committed that God not only didn't choose, but actually forordained. In other words God was the cause behind every action, every reaction, every choice, every thought, every good deed, every bad deed, every sin, including those of Stalin, Hitler, and Judas. For, in the world you have proposed, people have a much freedom to resist sin if God so wills it (and we would only sin if God wills it), as a stone does to resist the law of gravity and float in the air of its own free will. It has none and so it follows the law of gravity, and every falling stone is evidence of that law. And by the same token, every sin would be evidence of God's willing of a person to sin if there is no such a thing as free will. And yet, though God foreordained all of these events by all of these people, including yours and my actions that he judged to be sins. We, not God, are held responsible for them. Does that sound like the God you know who calls us to repent and choose a different way to live? Especially when, if things are like you said, I have been living exactly as God has willed for me to live in every respect of my life and its history and I cannot repent of my own free will, but only if God wills for me to. The God you describe is a demigod, not the God who calls men to himself, but at the same time allows me to "choose for yourself this day whom you will serve."

The bible shows clearly
1.!We have free will to chose to " eat the apple or not" genesis 3 , have free will to willfully sin Hebrews 10:26
2. We having warnings and heedings to not sin or
Obey and keep my commandments or we shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven acts 5:29 Deuteronomy 13:4
3. God wants all of us to go to heaven
2 Peter 2:3 He Predestined that all go to heaven BUT not Everyman will choose wisely and they mite loose their crown Rev 3:11 Eph 1:4-5

In short, is their a contradiction in the word about predestined?
The word balanced this out for all to know who reads and understands

 

[lori milne]

Hi Everyone, I'm not trying to start any Calvinist/Arminian battles here, but there is one issue I have with Arminianism that I just cannot get past and was wondering if anyone here who is an Arminian/Wesleyan can provide a different perspective. Question: Even if we imagine that all human beings have absolute free will (and I'm not saying Arminians believe this), and thus every single human chooses to accept or reject Christianity freely, because God is absolutely all-knowing and all-powerful, chose THIS universe with all of the events that would ever occur throughout history when God could have chosen among an infinite other possible universes. In other words, even if free will is absolute and salvation is conditional, God knew when he created the universe how the universe would turn out and still CHOSE this universe instead of another. God could have created the universe in any other way, but this is the universe God allowed to exist, even if everything that happens is the result of "free" choices. Doesn't this basically invalidate all of Arminianism? Thanks and God bless. -Justin

A bible Christian only view based off what was written in my heart and confirmed in the word of God

If God willed us to have free will then
He willed or permitted "
Sin and gave us the choice to choose sin or righteousness. The tree of good and evil confirms that their was indeed a choice.
And the snake pushed it tricked us as well to make the a bad choice.

In job the devil received permission from God to have a go at job. He give the satan / devil free will and us as well.
This balances that out beautifully.

And God wanting all men that none should perish. Balances that out.

theologies /reformations add a lot of contradiction and battling to the word of God
When their isn't a balanced understanding of the ENTIRE word of God something is wrong with your belief of your idea of what it's saying.

Amen!

 

[GraceSeeker]

The bible shows clearly

If that was actually true, then I don't think we would have all the various understandings of what it means, do you?

 

[lori milne]

If that was actually true, then I don't think we would have all the various understandings of what it means, do you?

I don't know? That's a really good question
I swear it's almost like we are all saying the same thing and Lately I've been really going out of my way to connect all these different understandings together.
They are like variations of how we interpret scriptures based off of being totally different people or Gods individual walk in each persons life.

I heard a saying once and it goes well here .
Jesus has four men he loves standing all together
In a room.
the first he went up to and he held him tight warmly and lovingly, the next man he hugged not not as long but just enough to say I love you,
The next man he laid his hand on his shoulder firmly and just as lovingly
and the last he walked by looking into his eyes and nodding at him with a pleased look.

This isn't in scripture but it fits.
God knows what we need and when we needed it.

 

[circuitrider]

A bible Christian only view based off what was written in my heart and confirmed in the word of God

What is a "bible Christian?" I was always taught that we were supposed to be Jesus Christians.

 

[lori milne]

What is a "bible Christian?" I was always taught that we were supposed to be Jesus Christians.

It means I'm directed by the word of God the God of Abraham Jacob and Isaac.
not the word of man/ theology
I believe Jesus Christ is and was the son of God /
And the word became flesh.

 

[circuitrider]

It means I'm directed by the word of God the God of Abraham Jacob and Isaac.
not the word of man/ theology
I believe Jesus Christ is and was the son of God /
And the word became flesh.

Just checking that we are using "word" and "Word" the same way. The Bible says that, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." That "Word" is Jesus. Jesus is the divine Word. The Bible are words from God but is not God.

There is a tendency of some Christians towards worshipping the Bible rather than the Jesus of the Bible. So I have some concern when people claim to be a "Bible Christian" when the point of being a Christian is Jesus rather than the book about Jesus.

So I only refer to Jesus as the Word of God rather than the Bible since Jesus is the divine Son of God and the Bible isn't.