Does The "Woke" Crowd Need To Take a Nap?

[MehGuy]

Sometimes I do wonder if psychologically we do associate darker skin with more fear. I have read studies that black men are seen as bigger and stronger than lighter men of similar height and build. From my own research of colorism in the black community it effects women and men differently. With lighter skinned women being more highly valued by men and darker skinned men being more highly valued with women. Darker skin giving more of an air of aggression and toughness. I have read that testosterones makes the skin somewhat darker and that within almost all races the men are slightly darker than the women. The middle of the phrase "tall, dark, and handsome" might exist for that reason. Couple that with a possible evolved sense of wanting to avoid the dark and finding the light more comforting.. black people and darker people in general will always have a somewhat cognitive biological bias against them. Even if at times it might work to their favor. Especially men.

 

[MrMoe]

Take the black prefix at the start of your post. I KNOW you completely misrepresented their point; though I'm not saying you did it maliciously

How did I misrepresent their point? I simply asked if the word black is now racist. That is a logical conclusion to make since the whole discussion is about racism and the graphic literally has the word racism next to these words.

Their argument is that the word black is put in front of bad things.

Not always. For example, blackjack, Black Canary and Black Panther.

The word itself tends to evoke negative images.

Because for centuries black or darkness has been associated with bad things, since black/darkness is the absence of light, and light, which is represented as white is often associated with good things.

For example, black has represented things like darkness, death, evil, bad luck etc. White has represented things like light, God, holiness, purity, etc.

It isn't referring to skin colour.

And they are called black. Why is that?

Well who started calling black people, black? Was it the same people who put black in words that have a negative connotations?

Their colour is pretty clearly brown.

If black people are clearly brown then should we start calling them brown people from now on? And how would we differentiate them from people like this

who has brown skin but is clearly a different race.

Anyways, that's their point.

"Why is that?" isn't really a point, it's a question.

It can't really be argued.

I just did, so that's not true.

It's factually correct.

Which part?

The question is how much impact does that particular behaviour have on our society?

Which behaviour? The behaviour of putting the word black into words with negative connatations?
Do you have any data to show how much impact if any this particular behaviour has had on our society?

Some white folks will argue it has none but, and I mean no disrespect, what do they know?

They know quite a lot actually. They are responsible for many advances that have made our lives as comfortable as they are now. For example, the internet we are both using right now.

I mean what do they know about how blacks perceive this?

I hope you're not saying that all black people percieve things the same. There are black people that see things like this as ridiculous non-issues.

Do they talk to black people?

I'm sure many do.

Do their black friends tell them these things?

I'm sure many do.

Do their black friends have trouble in the world around them?

I'm sure they do, just like people of all races have trouble in the world.

And do their poc friends even feel comfortable telling them these things because they know their experience will be validated with a response like "gee, that sucks" and not "aww. That doesn't sound too bad"

I'm sure many do.

 

[MrMoe]

The graphic says, correctly, that they are phrases with negative connotations.

That's just stating the obvious. Why bring up these specific phrases in a discussion about racism if it wasn't about race, like you told me before you edited your post.

 

[MrMoe]

What I can't figure out is why so many people can get so hurt, triggered, upset, and angry over any of those proposals. They can make all those changes as far as I'm concerned and I'll adapt, it's no big deal.

Which proposals are you referring to?

What is making you so upset about any of that???

The part were people are falsely accused of being racist and sometimes being suspended or even fired from their job. Being falsely accused of doing something you didn't do can affect your mental health and can lead to depression which can lead to suicide.

Don't you have far more important things to worry about in life? I know I sure do.

I'm pretty sure mental health, being falsely accused and losing your source of income rank very high on the "more important things to worry about" as you put it.

 

[MrMoe]

My main point is that the woke left exacerbate the very thing they claim to be fighting against. For the most part, from what I've seen, moderate left wingers usually just turn a blind eye, severely downplay these incidents or they will sometimes even defend these people either by directly defending them or by redirecting attention away from them...​

This summary paragraph of the OP attempts to justify the logical fallacy of the entire post which is an argument strategy called 'tainting the pool'.

I did a Google search for this fallacy and don't get any results for 'tainting the pool'. Seems like you made the phrase up. Can you provide a link.

Just raise a few ridiculous examples - then smear them around until your opponent's whole side sounds silly.

You do realize the "woke left" isn't referring to the whole left, Right?

Of course these excessive 'woke' memes are ridiculous - especially comparing the Xenomorph in Aliens to black women. I mean, what on earth?

You and I must have different definitions of what a meme is.

But hey, the right has the KKK or Proud Boys. Imagine if I just turned it around a little and said you right-wingers just turn a blind eye or severely downplay these incidents?

I would call that legitimate criticism. I've seen right wingers complain about antifa and other groups on the far left but then turn a blind eye or downplay groups on the far right. Both sides do it. It's not 'tainting the pool' as you put it.

 

[HARK!]

I am offended by the phrase "person of color" because it discrimination against the color blind.

Reminds me of this song.

Extreme - Color Me Blind Lyrics
Artist: Extreme

Album: III Sides To Every Story

Genre: Rock

Color me blind
Color me blind

I had a dream that
That I was blind
And I couldn't see
See color of any kind

Picture the world, minus a rainbow
When day becomes night, then where will the sun go
Dancing alone, just me and my shadow
Color me blind, so I can see no evil

Why do we dream in black and white?
Color me blind
Why do we dream in black and white?
Color me blind

I had a dream
I was looking over the mountain
But I've, I've yet to see the
The so called Promised Land

Picture the world, without any color
You couldn't tell one face from the other
I don't understand, why we fight with our brother?
Color me blind just to love one another

Why do we dream in black and white?
Color me blind
Why do we dream in black and white?
Color me blind

Why do we dream in black and white?
Color me blind
Why do we dream in black and white?
Blind
Color me blind
Color me blind

Picture the world, minus a rainbow
When day becomes night, then where will the sun go
Dancing alone, just me and my shadow
Color me blind, so I can see no evil

Picture the world, without any color
You couldn't tell one face from the other
I don't understand, why we fight with our brother?
Color, color me blind

Why do we dream in black and white?
Color me blind
Why do we dream in black and white?
Color me blind

Why do we? Why do we? Why do we?
Color me blind
Why do we? Why do we? Why do we?
Color me blind

Color me, color you
Color me blind
Color me, color you
Color me blind

==============================

(CLV) Re 7:9
After these things I perceived, and lo! a vast throng which no one was able to number , out of every nation and out of the tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lambkin, clothed in white robes and with palm fronds in their hands.

 

[MehGuy]

I do not think society deliberately uses the label "black" for negative things for racist reasons. If that is where other people are getting at. Your post reminds me of the scene in Malcolm X, where Malcolm is in prison and a prisoner decides to open his eyes about white people and makes him go through a dictionary and pointing out the words "black" being used for negative things and "white" positive. The part of the movie where I thought.. ok this is going off the rails.. lol.

Sorry but "white" and "black" most likely represents light and darkness. These connotations probably exist in many cultures and in European ones long before the slave trade ever existed.

Only thing I can agree with is that the design of the alien in Predator is pretty racist and used to play off a fear of black people. Had these thoughts ever since I first watched the move when I was 12 and will probably die believing this, lol.

Although I guess the point would be that while white and black have natural/biological negative and positive connotations, society didn't necessarily have to label Africans as "black" and Europeans as "white". Even though these two racial groups pretty much represent the two extremes in racial color hues. I think it's just an easy way to label the races especially considering other races can qualify for the "brown" color, although I guess it's not out of the question that Africans were called "black" to fit in with the already negative connotations of such a shade. Even though whatever color they are, I think their darker appearance has real world biological consequences that will probably never fade away no matter how many racial sensitive courses one is forced to sit through.

 

[rambot]

How did I misrepresent their point? I simply asked if the word black is now racist. That is a logical conclusion to make since the whole discussion is about racism and the graphic literally has the word racism next to these words.

as opposed to you making a logic conclusion, could you tell me what their argument was precisely? Is it that the word black is racist or that the word black is pejorative?

Not always. For example, blackjack, Black Canary and Black Panther.

two fictional superheros; one of which specifically was meant, and named to reclaim black power. And a card game named after a hand? I'm not sure that really discredits the list they provide but ok. You for those three.

Because for centuries black or darkness has been associated with bad things, since black/darkness is the absence of light, and light, which is represented as white is often associated with good things.
For example, black has represented things like darkness, death, evil, bad luck etc. White has represented things like light, God, holiness, purity, etc.

"it's the way we've always done it". Yes, I know.

Well who started calling black people, black? Was it the same people who put black in words that have a negative connotations?

slave traders called them Negros....from the Spanish word. Didn't call them browns.

If black people are clearly brown then should we start calling them brown people from now on? And how would we differentiate them from people like this

who has brown skin but is clearly a different race.

I'm not advocating we change. I'm pointing out that historically we have made that choice.

Which behaviour? The behaviour of putting the word black into words with negative connatations?
Do you have any data to show how much impact if any this particular behaviour has had on our society?

it's an undeniable part of our social conscious. Data makes it easier to see the impact

They know quite a lot actually. They are responsible for many advances that have made our lives as comfortable as they are now. For example, the internet we are both using right now

.nonsequitor

I hope you're not saying that all black people percieve things the same. There are black people that see things like this as ridiculous non-issues

.no I'm not. But I appreciate you stopping the strawman before you built it.

I'm sure they do, just like people of all races have trouble in the world

.
Do they have those troubles because of the colour of their skin)?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Which proposals are you referring to?

Ones like those mentioned in the OP.

The part were people are falsely accused of being racist and sometimes being suspended or even fired from their job.

Where is this happening? Please provide an example. A verifiable example, NOT an anecdotal one.

Being falsely accused of doing something you didn't do can affect your mental health and can lead to depression which can lead to suicide.

I'm pretty sure mental health, being falsely accused and losing your source of income rank very high on the "more important things to worry about" as you put it.

Again, show me that this is a big problem happening in our nation where people are being falsely accused of racism, losing their jobs, falling into deep mental illness and depression. And again, please give me some reliable sources, I don't want to hear "Well my friend's cousin's brother-in-law's sister said that..." or any other kinds of anecdotes.

 

[essentialsaltes]

That's just stating the obvious. Why bring up these specific phrases in a discussion about racism if it wasn't about race, like you told me before you edited your post.

These phrases demonstrate that 'white' and 'black' carry value judgments of 'good' and 'bad' attached to them in the language, and these value judgments may bleed into perceptions of race, when the same terms are used to describe people.

 

[Fantine]

The early feminist movement used to do "consciousness raising." They wanted to make other women, and society at large, realize the inequities women face.

When I was a young married woman in the 1970's, banks would not consider my salary alongside my husband's, although our incomes were equivalent, because "I would have a baby and quit my job."

One time my husband asked me to go to car dealerships and scout out new cars. He had just become a VP and was able to select a company car from several models, and he was also working long hours. I went to the Miracle Mile in Manhasset, Long Island, and the first salesperson looked at me with my two toddlers and said, "Come back with your husband and I'll talk to you." Needless to say we didn't use that dealer.

My consciousness was raised as I lived those experiences. I have many black friends whose experiences in life were very different from mine. I will never be able to share their experiences, but I can have my consciousness raised by listening to their stories.

And so can you.

In the 1970's, Betty Friedan called it "the problem that has no name." Feminists turned to "consciousness raising."

And that's what "wokeness" is today.

 

[JackRT]

The early feminist movement used to do "consciousness raising." They wanted to make other women, and society at large, realize the inequities women face.

When I was a young married woman in the 1970's, banks would not consider my salary alongside my husband's, although our incomes were equivalent, because "I would have a baby and quit my job."

One time my husband asked me to go to car dealerships and scout out new cars. He had just become a VP and was able to select a company car from several models, and he was also working long hours. I went to the Miracle Mile in Manhasset, Long Island, and the first salesperson looked at me with my two toddlers and said, "Come back with your husband and I'll talk to you." Needless to say we didn't use that dealer.

My consciousness was raised as I lived those experiences. I have many black friends whose experiences in life were very different from mine. I will never be able to share their experiences, but I can have my consciousness raised by listening to their stories.

And so can you.

In the 1970's, Betty Friedan called it "the problem that has no name." Feminists turned to "consciousness raising."

And that's what "wokeness" is today.

Your car salesman story reminded me of an event some 25 years ago when my wife and I went to a car lot to scope out things. After spending a while in the lot a very expensively dressed man came out to scope us out. He had rings on every finger. My wife and I looked at each other and rolled our eyes and walked away. After some more shopping about we retired to our favourite pub. We spoke to a regular there who ran a dealership and told him the story. Days later he told is that the day after our conversation he called his salesmen together and laid down the law --- nothing more than a wedding ring, no Rolex when a Timex will do the job, no flash/expensive suits, etc. Months later he said that sales were up. We found our new car through him.

 

[MrMoe]

as opposed to you making a logic conclusion, could you tell me what their argument was precisely?

Wait, so you don't know what their argument was? Yet you somehow knew I had misrepresented it.

Here's the link to the full seven minute interview.
Teaching kids about the complicated history of racism

Is it that the word black is racist or that the word black is pejorative?

The host starts the segment by saying:
"Many headlines refer to the stock market plunge yesterday as Black Monday, and that is just one of the subtle and not so subtle ways racism has been braided into our everyday culture."

The graphic they put up shows the word racism next to the words black highlighted in big bold letters.

This shows that they either think the word black is racist or that adding the word black to a negative phrase is racist.

two fictional superheros; one of which specifically was meant, and named to reclaim black power. And a card game named after a hand? I'm not sure that really discredits the list they provide but ok. You for those three.

It wasn't really meant to discredit the list, just to show not all phrases with the word black in them have negative connotations.

"it's the way we've always done it". Yes, I know.

Where is that quote from and what is it supposed to mean regarding what I said?

I'm not advocating we change. I'm pointing out that historically we have made that choice.

So you're fine with it?

it's an undeniable part of our social conscious. Data makes it easier to see the impact

So do you have any data regarding these phrases and their impact on society?

.nonsequitor

I don't think it is nonsequitor. A nonsequitor is "a statement (such as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said"
Definition of NON SEQUITUR

You asked the question "What do they know?" in regard to white folk and I responed to that question that they know quite a lot.

Do they have those troubles because of the colour of their skin)?

Yes. People of all colours can experience racism.

 

[MrMoe]

Ones like those mentioned in the OP.

Can you point them? Because I have no idea which ones you're talking about.

Where is this happening? Please provide an example. A verifiable example, NOT an anecdotal one.

Emmanuel Cafferty was fired from his job after some stranger accused him of doing the white power okay hand sign.

Stop Firing the Innocent

"Cafferty is a big, calm, muscular man in his 40s who was born and raised in a diverse working-class community on the south side of San Diego. On his father’s side, he has both Irish and Mexican ancestors. His mother is Latina. “If I was a white supremacist,” he told me, “I would literally have to hate 75 percent of myself.”"

"When Cafferty was wrongly accused of being a white supremacist, he fought hard to keep his job. He said he explained to the people carrying out the investigation—all of them were white—that he had no earthly idea some racists had tried to appropriate the “okay” sign for their sinister purposes. He told them he simply wasn’t interested in politics; as far as he remembered, he had not voted in a single election. Eventually, he told me, “I got so desperate, I was showing them the color of my skin. I was saying, ‘Look at me. Look at the color of my skin.’”

"The loss of his job has left Cafferty shaken. A few days ago, he spoke with a mental-health counselor for the first time in his life. “A man can learn from making a mistake,” he told me. “But what am I supposed to learn from this? It’s like I was struck by lightning.”"

Again, show me that this is a big problem happening in our nation where people are being falsely accused of racism, losing their jobs, falling into deep mental illness and depression. And again, please give me some reliable sources, I don't want to hear "Well my friend's cousin's brother-in-law's sister said that..." or any other kinds of anecdotes.

A female Chipotle manager who refused to serve a group of black men because she said they had a history of not paying was accused of racism by the men and by many on social media so she was fired. Fortunately these guys were stupid enough to admit to dining and dashing on social media in old tweets
that resurfaced and she was offered her job back. Now imagine these guys hadn't admitted to their crimes on social media. This woman would have remained fired from her job and would be known as the racist Chipotle manager.

Chipotle Rehired A Minnesota Manager After Racist Accusations In Viral Video Had Her Fired

"There was enough anger that the company headquarters issued an official statement on the incident on Friday and announced that they were firing the manager in the video."

 

[MrMoe]

These phrases demonstrate that 'white' and 'black' carry value judgments of 'good' and 'bad' attached to them in the language,

Yes, this has been done for a long time.

"These contrasting metaphors may go back as far as human history."
Black-and-white dualism - Wikipedia

and these value judgments may bleed into perceptions of race, when the same terms are used to describe people.

How would these value judgments bleed into perceptions of race in regards to the words they listed?

 

[FireDragon76]

I do not think society deliberately uses the label "black" for negative things for racist reasons. If that is where other people are getting at. Your post reminds me of the scene in Malcolm X, where Malcolm is in prison and a prisoner decides to open his eyes about white people and makes him go through a dictionary and pointing out the words "black" being used for negative things and "white" positive. The part of the movie where I thought.. ok this is going off the rails.. lol.

Plus there are situations where black is positive. Such as "being in the black" vs. "being in the red" financially.

 

[Arc F1]

That's not true at all. People think and say they're not racist while being totally racist all the while. That's what the real issue is these days. It's a complete lack of awareness based entirely on white privilege.

You mean like Facebook locking out a black group or like Blm that is mostly white? Is that the white privilege that you are talking about?

Facebook Suspends User Jamie Allman's Account After He Posts Video of Hundreds of Black Trump Supporters Chanting "We Love Trump!" in Washington DC (VIDEO)

 

[Arc F1]

It’s not coming back. China is losing the low end of the labor market as they are being undercut and advances in automation may soon undercut human labor totally in more areas than it already is. How than do you think we will see the return of mass low skill manufacturing in the US?

We shouldn't have lost it in the first place. Whole sections of our economy completely dropped out of the work force. Those automated jobs still provide employment. People have to do maintenance and some things can't be automated. Some jobs are better than none.

 

[Arc F1]

While I would agree thta the definition of racism seems to have morphed a bit (I like hte old standard of "superiority" being in the definition), I also think that the injustices, mild and not so mild, that don't fit under the OLD definition of racism, are still wildly inappropriate for a country whose constitution says that everyone is equal under the law (never mind that that document was written by people who owned slaves...)

I've met a few racists in my life. They all have one thing in common. They don't know the people that they hate. They know what they've been taught or what they've heard.

 

[essentialsaltes]

"These contrasting metaphors may go back as far as human history."
How would these value judgments bleed into perceptions of race in regards to the words they listed?

The words are just evidence that these value judgments exist. Fortunately, you have already recognized that there is an obvious, deep-seated, unconscious value judgment assigned to the words black and white.