Does the time exist?

[Tina W]

It seems that God exists outside of time.
Many "miracles," as we classify them, give
the impression that "things happen" outside
of our time stream.

CREATION of the universe, including plants, animals and humans (Genesis 1-2)
SUPERNATURAL CONCEPTION—Isaac conceived by very elderly Sarah and 100 year old Abraham at Gerar (Gen. 21:1)
The SUN AND MOON STAYED MOTIONLESS (longer day) to enable the Israelites to win a crucial battle (Josh. 10:12-14)
DISEASE AND HEALING—Jeroboam’s hand instantly withered and then restored (1 Kings 13:4-6)
Naaman instantly healed of leprosy, Gehazi instantly afflicted with it (2 Kings 5:10-27)
Syrian army smitten with blindness at Dothan (2 Kings 6:18)
King Uzziah instantly struck with leprosy, Jerusalem (2 Chr. 26:16-21)
2 blind men healed(Matt 9:27-31)
Deaf and dumb man healed (Mark 7:31-37)

Adam was originally eternal.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

This could be because time "did not begin" until Adam sinned.
So, time is a way to measure our decay towards the first death.
"Time" is an indicator of our sinful condition.

The part about time did not begin until Adam sinned makes sense except in Genesis when God said "Let there be light" that's when time began because then the Bible says the evening and the morning were the first day, and goes on to say how He created things each day then rested on Sunday. So that is time. But it is true that God lives outside time and can do things outside time too. Time is no barrier for God. He made the sun not go down in Joshua, that's like stopping time, and He also made the sun dial, their version of a clock back then go backwards for Hezekiah in Isaiah 38:8, that's the same as time going backwards. So whatever time is, God is outside of time and can stop time and make time go backwards. Time is no barrier to Him.

 

[Hoghead1]

I not quit sure what you mean about time beginning or God existing outside time. I take time to mean change, motion, moving forward, something happening. I have trouble with you saying time began when this universe was created, s that means God was idle, asleep, or unconscious up t this point. I have no time for lazy, idle Gods. That's why I believe God is eternally creative. Hence, here was another universe before this one, and so on, ad infinitum. The classical Christian model or picture of God as he or she is in his or her own nature did argue was was atemporal, not subject to change, etc. However this model came largely from Hellenic schools of philosophy that had difficulty accepting the reality of time and change. I feel God is temporal in the sense the he has a direct awareness of us who are temporal beings. I also believe God is temporal, because God is continually changing. I also believe God is temporal, because all causality assumes a before and an after. Hence, if God is outside time, then nothing he is involved with refers to a before or after and therefore he cannot cause anything to happen.

 

[Tina W]

I not quit sure what you mean about time beginning or God existing outside time. I take time to mean change, motion, moving forward, something happening. I have trouble with you saying time began when this universe was created, s that means God was idle, asleep, or unconscious up t this point. I have no time for lazy, idle Gods. That's why I believe God is eternally creative. Hence, here was another universe before this one, and so on, ad infinitum. The classical Christian model or picture of God as he or she is in his or her own nature did argue was was atemporal, not subject to change, etc. However this model came largely from Hellenic schools of philosophy that had difficulty accepting the reality of time and change. I feel God is temporal in the sense the he has a direct awareness of us who are temporal beings. I also believe God is temporal, because God is continually changing. I also believe God is temporal, because all causality assumes a before and an after. Hence, if God is outside time, then nothing he is involved with refers to a before or after and therefore he cannot cause anything to happen.

Think of time as like a language that we use to understand and make meaning of the things that are happening to us and around us. Time is how we understand things. Now think of another language that is used to understand things other than time. Before God created time as we understand it, there was another language or way of making sense of things but it's beyond our comprehension because our language is time. God can move and do things outside of that language. God can speak both languages God always existed and Heaven and angels existed outside our language of time. It's just beyond our comprehension because the only way we know how to measure things, understand things and make sense of the world or universe is through time. There is life outside time we just can't comprehend it yet, not till we go to the afterlife then we will be outside time too.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The education is critical to me. Otherwise, I would not understand how to count time. (Do you think the atomic clock, or rock layers, has nothing to do with the sun, moon and stars?)

Your point is muddled. Are you suggesting that geology taught you how to "count time"? Or the sun, moon, and stars? Or the Bible?

No one needs the Bible to understand how the the motions in the sky of the sun, moon, and stars may help one, like a natural clock, to measure time. Clocks are no doubt inspired by this. Even our sleep cycle helps us to understand time.

What I am struck with is your assertion that "God uses the sun, moon and stars to give us the sense of time we need. Gen 1:14. That is it. We do not know anything else about time."

I think that it is safe to say that Einstein would disagree.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[PsychoSarah]

This is a thread about time, not about radiometric dating.
I think you are trying to comfort yourself.

No, I just thought that you were trying to imply radioactive dating would be invalid based upon what I said. What with your "and you believe the earth is billions of years old" comment.

 

[Hoghead1]

OK, but see I have trouble understanding why in the first place you assume there is some "language" other than time. What is your evidence here? Secondly, if it is bey0nd our comprehension, something we cannot understand, why bother with it? Concepts to which we can give no specific context or character are absolutely meaningless, to start with. Thirdly, I'm not sure you understand what I mean by time. In the sense in which I use the word, to say there is no time in eternity amounts to saying everything there is dead, can't even move an inch, can't change, can't look forward to anything. I don't know about you. but that kind of deadness does not appeal to me. Furthermore, more than one major church father, Augustine, for example, argued that time itself is truly transcendent of us, is a mystery, is something so far beyond us that no one can define it or say what it is. I don't exactly are with that. I just mention it to show time can be considered as something nearly divine.

 

[juvenissun]

Your point is muddled. Are you suggesting that geology taught you how to "count time"? Or the sun, moon, and stars? Or the Bible?

No one needs the Bible to understand how the the motions in the sky of the sun, moon, and stars may help one, like a natural clock, to measure time. Clocks are no doubt inspired by this. Even our sleep cycle helps us to understand time.

What I am struck with is your assertion that "God uses the sun, moon and stars to give us the sense of time we need. Gen 1:14. That is it. We do not know anything else about time."

I think that it is safe to say that Einstein would disagree.


eudaimonia,

Mark

How many ways do you know about counting time through natural features? I know at least 30 ways. In fact, my current researches include two new ones.
But they are all traced back to "sun, moon and stars". That shows the power of geological knowledge.
If you like to learn, then ask.

 

[juvenissun]

No, I just thought that you were trying to imply radioactive dating would be invalid based upon what I said. What with your "and you believe the earth is billions of years old" comment.

There are various inconsistent ways to measure time. Radioactive dating is only one of them. So, the 4.5 Ga is just one version of the age of the earth.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Sounds contradictory,
I mean, "progress" is change. Change is only defined in terms of time.

See? Time is an essential concept, can't even explain it without it because really what is that? lol But what I mean is the object is the object of the moment and the object of "3 seconds ago" never actually existed and what exists is the object as it is in the moment it is being observed.

Time is used to record what the object was, possibly was, is, could be, and will be. But without time all there is is the object.

And if humans had never observed the concept of time we wouldn't understand change.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Do chessboards exit? One space they're black, another they're white...

I dun get it.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Has there not been over Man a long period of Time, when he was nothing - (not even) mentioned? - Koran surah Ad-Dahdr (the time)...

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I dun get it.

Sorry my minds half distracted at times. I like to use a chess board anallogy for Buddhist "emptiness" logic. The whole in this system is made form parts which have different properties to the whole, for instance "Is the chess board white?" has a "No" answer. Hence the chess board, being composite, lacks true existence. I am thinking time can be seen like that, (and it is by Buddhists) and maybe thats similar to your views. Theres no chess board, only the square of the present?

Personaly I dont like to philosophise experience away . Not saying you do that, but its a nihilistic trend to make an illusion out of what is foundaitonal.

 

[dysert]

Time does exist, but it didn't always. The Bible tells us that time was created (2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2). I think that all of creation is on the time line, and it only moves forward. God exists outside of time, so He can see backwards and forwards. I think of time as a movie strip (back when movies were on reels of film). Creation is in the movie and progresses forward. God, being outside of time, is the One handling the film strip and therefore is not constrained by it.

 

[durangodawood]

....God, being outside of time, is the One handling the film strip and therefore is not constrained by it.

"Handling" the filmstrip.
Thats a verb, an action, which requires time, for us to understand it.
No time = not comprehensible, in this case

 

[AlexDTX]

What is the time? It is different from the Time with a big T? Does the time exist, or it is just an illusion? After our death, are we still submitted in time or does it disappear? How can we explain that the time isn't the same everywhere, and that in some other galaxies it is passing more slowly? Does that mean that the time as we "picture" it is rather a concept than a concrete "thing"? Has the time always been? How could it just appear like this? Is the Time almighty? Do our lives begin out of time?

Sorry for this messy thread, my mind is messy as well.. I thought it would be interesting to have the opinion of both believers and unbelievers, in fact, to have a certain diversity of answers on the subject.

Time is a part of creation. As others have said, it relates to space and motion, hence it is called the space-time continuum. The measuring of time by mechanical clocks is affected by gravity. Two clocks, one at sea level and the other on a mountain top will have different times measured. Black holes have such strong gravitational forces that time stop at the event horizon.

There is a difference between eternal and everlasting. Only God is eternal in that He always exists without beginning nor end. Adam had a beginning because he is part of creation. He began life with everlasting life. Of course, all people have everlasting life in their spirit, but not their bodies. In reference to our future glorified bodies we will have everlasting life in the body.

In my opinion believers will have both eternal life and everlasting life. Eternal because God has joined His life to ours, and everlasting in that in the resurrection we will never die again. I think we will always exist in time since we are still created beings and time is a dimension of creation.

 

[lesliedellow]

How can time be affected by the presence of (real) massive objects without itself being real?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How can time be affected by the presence of (real) massive objects without itself being real?

It is "time" that is affected, or is it objects that are affected?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Sorry my minds half distracted at times. I like to use a chess board anallogy for Buddhist "emptiness" logic. The whole in this system is made form parts which have different properties to the whole, for instance "Is the chess board white?" has a "No" answer. Hence the chess board, being composite, lacks true existence. I am thinking time can be seen like that, (and it is by Buddhists) and maybe thats similar to your views. Theres no chess board, only the square of the present?

Personaly I dont like to philosophise experience away . Not saying you do that, but its a nihilistic trend to make an illusion out of what is foundaitonal.

Um, no. A little off mark. I'm saying Time is similar to math, it exists as what he make it to be. We can change the global clock to 25 hours in a day 8 days a week and 55 minutes in an hour. It is relative to what we define it as, but as for existing on its own without human influence it does not. There is only what we can perceive as what we call "the present" and everything in "the present" is all there is.

The Chessboard analogy fits more along the line of what I believe objects actually are. Objects are simply a composition of certain atoms together. Like if you chip a piece off of a rock, is it a different rock now? Is it no longer a rock without that piece? Humans are an abundance of chemical meshes and tissues, fundamentally. Removing a bit of blood or organs doesn't make them not human by our classification. Those atoms that make those chemicals and tissues will always be those atoms even if they're removed from the object.

It's a pretty interesting way of looking at things in the fact that you recognize you're basically recycled atoms. They will always be those atoms, but they can be put together to form newer objects. There's a long example I can try and illustrate but it's off topic.

 

[Hoghead1]

Interesting discussion. One issue is how should time be defined. Augustine, for example, said he really couldn't say what it was. I view time as motion, change, moving on, something happening. I take time to be real. Interestingly enough, Einstein felt time was a big illusion. The ancient Greeks had real problems dealing with the world of time and change. More than one major school argued the world of time and change was just a big illusion. The "really real," the divine, was seen as wholly simple and wholly immutable. Early on, Greek metaphysics were readily incorporated into the church and so the church fathers argued that God was wholly immutable, without even the shadow of movement, void of body, parts, passions, compassion, standing in no need of the creature, wholly independent of the world, etc. That is what Christian meant when it affirms god is outside time. In modern-day theology, this static, world-negating view of God has been challenged.

 

[029b10]

Adam was originally eternal.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Since eternal describes the nature of living things which have no beginning of existence, then the serpent's logic that if they were made by the eternal God then they must be eternal since as written, a good tree brings forth good fruit and cannot bring forth evil fruit. So if the eternal does not have a beginning of existence, nor does it have an end of it existence, neither does it change its nature or form since it always was and will always be. Then how could they die if they were eternal beings made in the likeness and image of the eternal God.