Does The Third Temple...

[ebedmelech]

One of the few times we agree to agree

Old agreeing Jack

It's like a former pastor I had said, when it comes to the new birth:

"To be born twice is to die once...to be born once, is to die twice".

It doesn't work with the resurrection though...

 

[shturt678s]

It's like a former pastor I had said, when it comes to the new birth:

"To be born twice is to die once...to be born once, is to die twice".

It doesn't work with the resurrection though...

Although do recall hearing something similar decades ago, I still had to put on my thinking cap, ie, good job.

Made an undercut on a large 80 foot tree so to fall away from my girl friend's Hawaiian orchids, well, didn't work out so well, ie, the tree spun a quarter turn or more, and smashed her orchids - I never knew she could yell and hate me for a minute or two, ie, my end point: thank you for agaping a difficult to agape old fuddy woddy that can't even fall a tree correctly (mispelling to top it off - lol) - still can't believe I did that?

Tomorrow will be another day, and has to be better

Old

 

[salvation3in1]

hi, have just read a few posts here and would like to offer my personal view. Using scripture, there is very strong evidence for a pre trib
rapture. But i am still open to a mid trib or post trib rapture. Why? Because these 3 views are non essentials to the christian faith. Essentials would be things like salvation by faith alone, partaking of communion etc. In non essentials its ok to 'agree to disagree'. Whats important to me is that when that trumpet sounds, i get "raptured".

 

[shturt678s]

hi, have just read a few posts here and would like to offer my personal view. Using scripture, there is very strong evidence for a pre trib rapture. But i am still open to a mid trib or post trib rapture. Why? Because these 3 views are non essentials to the christian faith.

Only a head's up: Removing the Trumpets of delusions (Rev.8:7-9:21) with a pre-trib. "rapture" [A 'boost' from Mr. Ribera in 1593 "In Sacrum Beati Ionnis Apostoli" Evangelistate Apocalypsin commenturi where M. MacDonald in 1830, and the Irvingites gave it a second 'boost'] removes the 'essential' warnings regarding who remains in through the "Triblation" (Rev.7:14) being measured at Rev.11:1 even at this moment ["Tribulation" = Rev.7:14, out of the tribulation, the great one" Grammatically and contextually all the tribulations (mostly spiritual) throughout the whole N.T.] in a compressed vision, ie, definitely including the horrors of the delusions in Rev. chapter 9 coming to pass this moment.

Essentials would be things like salvation by faith alone, partaking of communion etc. In non essentials its ok to 'agree to disagree'. Whats important to me is that when that trumpet sounds, i get "raptured".

Faith effected through repentance is also essential of course,

Old Jack walking on egg shells today

 

[Douggg]

... make and break Premillennialism and its Rapture eschatology?

not the rapture, but premellnialism. Because there cannot be the animal sacrifices without it.

And because of the animal sacrifices, that eliminates some peoples idea' that 2thessalonians2, the temple of God is individual Christians.

 

[shturt678s]

not the rapture, but premellnialism. Because there cannot be the animal sacrifices without it.

And because of the animal sacrifices, that eliminates some peoples idea' that 2thessalonians2, the temple of God is individual Christians.

Only a head's up. IIThess.2:4, "sanctuary" = individual Christians.

Old Jack

naos always = "Sanctuary" in the N.T. less the courtyards and etc., ie, the most Holy Place, and Holy Place that have already been united.

 

[Shocker]

Only a head's up. IIThess.2:4, "sanctuary" = individual Christians.

Old Jack

naos always = "Sanctuary" in the N.T. less the courtyards and etc., ie, the most Holy Place, and Holy Place that have already been united.

ιερόν
hieron
hee-er-on'
Neuter of G2413; a sacred place, that is, the entire precincts (whereas G3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere): - temple.

ναός
naos
nah-os'
From a primary word ναίω naiō (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple: - shrine, temple. Compare G2411. (G3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself)

Sanctuary is the temple.


The reason naos is rendered Temple in nearly all translations is because its the most accurate translation of the koine Greek vernacular to English.

By saying that the temple is spiritual takes away focus from the prophetic temple the Jews are going to build, our indicator as Christians of where we are prophetically in the Bible.


Temple complex= Heiron (Temple with courtyard and its precincts)
Temple itself= Naos

 

[Douggg]

Only a head's up. IIThess.2:4, "sanctuary" = individual Christians.

Old Jack

naos always = "Sanctuary" in the N.T. less the courtyards and etc., ie, the most Holy Place, and Holy Place that have already been united.

Jack, the Antichrist also stops the daily sacrifices which there has to be a temple to conduct those animal sacrifices... in order for them to be stopped and the abomination of desolate setup to be worshiped for the 1335 days.

Even if there was a temple rebuilt in the near future, I don't think some will recognize it as being bible prophecy fulfilled, just as they don't recognize that Israel, the country over there is the fulfillment of prophecy, and also Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews is the fig tree generation. It's just deny, deny, deny. Why? Because people cannot come to grips with it that the preterist view and the historist view are wrong.

 

[ebedmelech]

Jack, the Antichrist also stops the daily sacrifices which there has to be a temple to conduct those animal sacrifices... in order for them to be stopped and the abomination of desolate setup to be worshiped for the 1335 days.

Even if there was a temple rebuilt in the near future, I don't think some will recognize it as being bible prophecy fulfilled, just as they don't recognize that Israel, the country over there is the fulfillment of prophecy, and also Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews is the fig tree generation. It's just deny, deny, deny. Why? Because people cannot come to grips with it that the preterist view and the historist view are wrong.

Really? I think what's happening is futurism just flat denies prophetic history.

This was Antiochus Epiphanes! He did this in 167 BC. I certainly don't see it's going to happen in the future.

Jesus likened the A of D in Matthew 24 for the specific point that this event would be of importance to the Jews, as it had occurred when Antiochus stopped sacrifice and defiled the alter with a pig sacrifice. That is historical fact! He even denied the Jews to circumcise their children...and killed those who did!!!

It was the Maccabeans Revolt, where Judas Maccabeus successfully defeated Antiochus' army..that the temple was cleansed and rededicated! What do the Jews call that day?...Hanukkah!!! They celebrate it to this day...so how are preterist or historicists wrong?

Rome took the temple in 70 AD...HOW COULD IT NOT BE DEFILED according to what we KNOW the Law says??? They surrounded Jerusalem (as Luke says). When the Romans entered the temple, the Jews went berserk trying to protect it. However Rome took it in the name of their pagan gods. Josephus' account is very explicit of this.

I really don't think a temple is going to be built. I don't think God will allow such a thing...but we'll see.

The temple is the church and...I don't care how hard you try, neither Jesus nor the apostles EVER said a word of a third temple.

The apostles clearly teach the church is the "temple of the living God".

I do understand the *possibility* of a temple being built because the Jews look to do that...but will the Lord allow such a thing???

 

[shturt678s]

ιερόν
hieron
hee-er-on'
Neuter of G2413; a sacred place, that is, the entire precincts (whereas G3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere): - temple.

ναός
naos
nah-os'
From a primary word ναίω naiō (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple: - shrine, temple. Compare G2411. (G3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself)

Sanctuary is the temple.

So you're concluding that the Hohy Place and the most Holy Place structure in the center ("Sanctuary") + the four courtyards + gates + alter, staircase, and columns = Sanctuary?

The reason naos is rendered Temple in nearly all translations is because its the most accurate translation of the koine Greek vernacular to English.

The reason naos is rendered "Temple" is spacious, ie, the worse translation.

By saying that the temple is spiritual takes away focus from the prophetic temple the Jews are going to build, our indicator as Christians of where we are prophetically in the Bible.


Temple complex= Heiron (Temple with courtyard and its precincts)
Temple itself= Naos

Old Jack

btw Temple = / = Sanctuary, however the Sanctuary is within the Temple.

 

[shturt678s]

Jack, the Antichrist also stops the daily sacrifices which there has to be a temple to conduct those animal sacrifices... in order for them to be stopped and the abomination of desolate setup to be worshiped for the 1335 days.

Even if there was a temple rebuilt in the near future, I don't think some will recognize it as being bible prophecy fulfilled, just as they don't recognize that Israel, the country over there is the fulfillment of prophecy, and also Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews is the fig tree generation. It's just deny, deny, deny. Why? Because people cannot come to grips with it that the preterist view and the historist view are wrong.

Good to hear your voice again my friend. You know I'm from the Histerical interpretation group - lol, ie, I mean the "historical group" that interprets the visions of Revelation synchronous in light of the "7" endings of the world, all being the "1" ending of course.

Still appreciate you and your view,

Old Jack

I like "nowism" where Preterism and Futurism projects the warnings (I want to warned of impending doom before the 'doom' and 'gloom' hits me, ie, the older I get, the less I like the forever surprises) of preliminary judgments out of touch with us today, eg, Rev.6:1 - 9:21.

 

[shturt678s]

Let me give you a

Old unagapable Jack

 

[Shocker]

So you're concluding that the Hohy Place and the most Holy Place structure in the center ("Sanctuary") + the four courtyards + gates + alter, staircase, and columns = Sanctuary?

The reason naos is rendered "Temple" is spacious, ie, the worse translation.


Old Jack
btw Temple = / = Sanctuary, however the Sanctuary is within the Temple.

naos=Temple

And in the NT, is aptly translated as such.

Words of Christ in red.

Mat_23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat_23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mat_23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

Mat_23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


The word temple is the correct translation for naos.


The 3 most literal word for word translations all use temple.

There are over 150 greek scholars, Ill assume they know more than you in this regard.

KJV
Mat_23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

ESV
Mat 23:17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?

NASB
Mat 23:17 "You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?

 

[shturt678s]

naos=Temple

And in the NT, is aptly translated as such.

Words of Christ in red.

Mat_23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Matt.23:16, "whoever swears by the Sanctuary....but whoever swears by the gold of the Sanctuary," The Holy and the Holy of Holies in the Temple. Unless the Pharisee swore "by the gold of the Sanctuary" (not Temple with its four courtyards, and etc. and etc.), he was under no moral obligation.

Mat_23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mat_23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

Matt.23:21, And he that swears by the Sanctuary" contextually and grammatically "Sanctuary".

Mat_23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Matt.23:35, "whom you murdered between the Sanctuary and the altar. Zachariah's martyrdom is a murder that was so terrible, his blood being shed between the Sanctuary (Holy and Holy of Holies - not between the four courtyears or between courtyards or between a gate and staircase?) and the altar of burnt sacrifice, thus in the very presence of God, that even the Talmud deplores it as one of the most heinous of Jewish crimes against God's servants.

The word temple is the correct translation for naos


The 3 most literal word for word translations all use temple.

There are over 150 greek scholars, Ill assume they know more than you in this regard.

KJV
Mat_23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

ESV
Mat 23:17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?

NASB
Mat 23:17 "You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?

naos = Sanctuary

Old Jack

btw I wonder why in Matt.4:5, ieron = Temple, and not the Santuary? Eg. Lk.21:37, "temple". Acts2:46, "temple" ieron for some reason, ie, maybe had more room than the small naos?

 

[Shocker]

btw I wonder why in Matt.4:5, ieron = Temple, and not the Santuary? Eg. Lk.21:37, "temple". Acts2:46, "temple" ieron for some reason, ie, maybe had more room than the small naos?

Because you don't study the Koine Greek vernacular.


hieron
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Naos
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


The courtyard and buildings are translated as a whole, "Temple" or Hieron.

The actual temple itself, the place where the priests are, is called the "Temple".


You might understand it more in a modern English vernacular.

Hieron=Temple complex

 

[shturt678s]

Because you don't study the Koine Greek vernacular.


hieron
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

I'm glad you are scrutinizing the Koine vernacular for me Agreeing to agree!

Naos
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Matt.27:5, "And having hurled the silver into the Sanctuary," Greek vernacular is pretext without context my friend. Judas flung it into the open entrance of the Holy Place, ie, not into one of the courtyards or in the Temple gate?

The courtyard and buildings are translated as a whole, "Temple" or Hieron.

The actual temple itself, the place where the priests are, is called the "Temple".


You might understand it more in a modern English vernacular.

Hieron=Temple complex

Old Jack, ie, all Greek to me, however we are agreeing to agree in a few places which is astounding?

 

[Shocker]

Greek vernacular is pretext without context my friend.

That doesn't make any sense.

Pretext is a means of concealing something.

(Excuse, ploy, ruse, masquerade)

 

[shturt678s]

That doesn't make any sense.

Pretext is a means of concealing something.

(Excuse, ploy, ruse, masquerade)

Sorry, ei, I wasn't clear

Text = "Greek vernacular" is pretext without Context, ie, find one passage using naos that includes either the 4 courtyards or includes the staircase + gates + pillars contextually then I'll concede, ie, almost 3 decades ago I wasn't able to, however maybe you can in the N.T? No sarcasm as I'm one of a very few that places myself below IITim.3:16, ie, I'm absolutely refutable.

Or find one passage using ieron = the central building in the Temple ("Sanctuary") contextually, and again, I'll concede?

Old correctable Jack

 

[Shocker]

Sorry, ei, I wasn't clear

Text = "Greek vernacular" is pretext without Context, ie, find one passage using naos that includes either the 4 courtyards or includes the staircase + gates + pillars contextually then I'll concede, ie, almost 3 decades ago I wasn't able to, however maybe you can in the N.T? No sarcasm as I'm one of a very few that places myself below IITim.3:16, ie, I'm absolutely refutable.

Or find one passage using ieron = the central building in the Temple ("Sanctuary") contextually, and again, I'll concede?

Old correctable Jack

Lets get to the root first so I can better understand you.


What is your definition of sanctuary?

 

[Douggg]

This was Antiochus Epiphanes! He did this in 167 BC. I certainly don't see it's going to happen in the future.

Jesus likened the A of D in Matthew 24 for the specific point that this event would be of importance to the Jews, as it had occurred when Antiochus stopped sacrifice and defiled the alter with a pig sacrifice.

And why wouldn't that be sometime in the future? There is not a temple in place for it to happen, yet.

Jesus in Matthew 24, indicated that the Abomination of Desolation was a future event, after the gospel has been preached unto all the world, all nation. Antiochus lived at least 167 years earlier to Jesus's statement.

Anitiochus's action typified what the end times Abomination of Desolation will be. Which requires a temple, right?