Does The Third Temple...

[Old Timer]

Where we are in agreement is this:

1. The Second Coming

2. The Resurrection

3. New Heavens, New Earth, New Jerusalem

What's your scriptural basis for the second coming of Christ?

 

[bibletruth469]

The temple that fell in 70 AD has not one stone left upon another, but the temple that is to be built and will be the tribulation temple has no bearing on the time of the rapture and will be built as soon as Psalm 83 is fulfilled which gives them their entire land borders back. They will prosper, be in peace, and dwell in security and without walls. The Psalm 83 war is the closest thing to happening and even that has no bearing on when the rapture will occur, but that fulfillment is a sign to Israel that the Messianic age is upon them. I think Psalm 83 will happen very soon. I will look forward to seeing it, whether I see it from here, by media reporting on earth or from there, in heaven, just watching the events unfold, it will be a time of great rejoicing for all who love Israel and pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.

Amen! We all need to pray for the nation of Israel . In the very beginning , God declared a promise to those who pray for the Jewish people. Gen 12:2-3," And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee , and make thy name great ; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee , and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed".

 

[Shocker]

What you are overlooking is that your whole eschatology its very essence wholly depends upon the construction of the Third Temple.

Not really, The antichrist could stand in Jerusalem and Id believe it, temple or not..

As a amillennialist partial preterist, there are three basic things in which we are in disagreement over:

Id say there is much more..

1. I don't believe in a secret Rapture

Neither do I

2. I don't believe in a literal millennial kingdom rule, instead I believe Christ is reigning right now in heaven

That's just plain foolish. Christ is God, over course he is reigning now in Heaven, what does that have to do with Christ ruling on earth?

3. Christ could come right this second, or tomorrow, or a week from today, or a thousand years from now, and His coming is not at ALL dependent upon the Third Temple event and the Antichrist entering the temple and claiming to be God event... before, while, or 3.5-7 years after... His coming.

Couldn't agree more..

Where we are in agreement is this:

1. The Second Coming

Yeah, you really cant talk your way outa that one.. You dont really have much choice to believe this, you aren't a Christian if you dont..

2. The Resurrection

Of Christ? Lazarus? Saints?

3. New Heavens, New Earth, New Jerusalem

Sure, Id say we agree those events are coming..

 

[random person]

Not really, The antichrist could stand in Jerusalem and Id believe it, temple or not..


Neither do I



That's just plain foolish. Christ is God, over course he is reigning now in Heaven, what does that have to do with Christ ruling on earth?

This passage here:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. " (1 Corinthians 15:25-26)

Christ must reign until death is abolished. When is death abolished, at His Second Coming naturally.

But according to Pre-Mills there are three resurrections.

The Secret Rapture resurrection - 1 Thess. 4:16

The "First" Resurrection of the Tribulation saints 3.5-7 years later - Rev. 20:4

The "Second" Resurrection 1007 years later - Rev 20:5

But according to my eschatology there is one Second Coming and one Resurrection - John 5:28-29

 

[Shocker]

This passage here:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. " (1 Corinthians 15:25-26)

Christ must reign until death is abolished. When is death abolished, at His Second Coming naturally.

But according to Pre-Mills there are three resurrections.

The Secret Rapture resurrection - 1 Thess. 4:16

The "First" Resurrection of the Tribulation saints 3.5-7 years later - Rev. 20:4The "Second" Resurrection 1007 years later - Rev 20:
But according to my eschatology there is one Second Coming and one Resurrection - John 5:28-29

I think the resurrection of the righteous started with Christ, and is happening almost in waves.

Have a look and tell me what you think.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



The second Resurrection

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.




"THIS is the first resurrection, as in the "the dead must wait, because this is the first resurrection.

That's how I understand it..

1st is at Christs second coming.

2nd is at the end of the 1000 years, but its for the damned based on what Im reading..

 

[random person]

I think the resurrection of the righteous started with Christ, and is happening almost in waves.

Have a look and tell me what you think.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



The second Resurrection

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.




"THIS is the first resurrection, as in the "the dead must wait, because this is the first resurrection.

That's how I understand it..

1st is at Christs second coming.

2nd is at the end of the 1000 years, but its for the damned based on what Im reading..

The first resurrection is spiritual. (Alive in Christ)
The second resurrection is physical. (The Resurrection)

The first death is spiritual. (Dead in sin)
The second death is physical. (Damnation) Rev. 20:14

Let's not forget that Rev. 20:4 speaks of souls not glorified resurrected bodies.

 

[Old Timer]

The first resurrection is spiritual. (Alive in Christ)
The second resurrection is physical. (The Resurrection)

Anyone who takes perhaps a minute or two to think about this can see where it does not make any sense..

Rev 20 first of all is in the context of the things which shall be hereafter and is contextually tied to the coming of Christ in Rev 19.

In this case, Rev 20 is being taken out of its declared context and is being placed within the context of the the things which are. ie, the present time.. right here, right now.

But here's the deal..

Those who are raised 2nd, had no part in the first resurrection.. so calling the first resurrection spiritual (ie, confusing it with being born again) would not have been the case for those who are raised 2nd..

I think that this is simply another blatantly obvious contradiction which is blown off as some super spiritual application of the present..

They know it's bogus, and either can't admit that they're wrong.. or can't fathom that idea in itself.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I think the resurrection of the righteous started with Christ, and is happening almost in waves.

Have a look and tell me what you think.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



The second Resurrection

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.




"THIS is the first resurrection, as in the "the dead must wait, because this is the first resurrection.

That's how I understand it..

1st is at Christs second coming.

2nd is at the end of the 1000 years, but its for the damned based on what Im reading..

The first resurrection is in three stages: First of Firstfruits; full harvest; gleanings.

First of Firstfruits is fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead and resurrected bodily those who came out of their graves on that Feast Day of First of Firstfruits which is now totally fulfilled. To fulfill that Oracle He had to raise bodily those saints who were His "wave offering" in the temple in heaven mid-morning of that day, as the Law said the priest must do.

As High Priest of the Everliving Patriarchal order of the Redeemer/Kinsman who adopts the sons of Adam for the Glory [whosoever will], He ascended to the heavenly temple mid-morning and offered before the Glory those saints as the "Wave Offering of earth's harvest of sons of God who were raised "perfected in cleansed souls, regenerated in the Spirit of Adoption, and regenerated in the resurrected body of Adoption" like His glorious body.

Then the full harvest of Pentecost is ingathered, which harvest is ongoing in this age of the Gentiles, but not yet ingathered in the fullness of the Gentiles "come in". The place we come in to is to the "barn/Heaven's temple" from whence the Seed came out [at the incarnation: Haggai 2].

Then the gleanings of Pentecost are those resurrected martyrs at the end of the tribulation. After that, the first harvest is ended and there is no more resurrection of the dead in Christ, for no one dies in the millennial reign except sinners, for their own sins and they die "accursed" and do not get a second chance but apparently go straight to the Lake of Fire, for the earth shall no more cover her slain, after the first harvest is ended [which is at the gleaning]: Isaiah 26:19-21

So in this age of the Church the first harvest is ongoing and every soul born again in Christ is part of that harvest typed in Pentecost. After the gleanings, it is fulfilled totally, and the feasts after that have only to do with Israel and will all be fulfilled totally.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The first resurrection is in three stages: First of Firstfruits; full harvest; gleanings.

First of Firstfruits is fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead and resurrected bodily those who came out of their graves on that Feast Day of First of Firstfruits which is now totally fulfilled. To fulfill that Oracle He had to raise bodily those saints who were His "wave offering" in the temple in heaven mid-morning of that day, as the Law said the priest must do.

As High Priest of the Everliving Patriarchal order of the Redeemer/Kinsman who adopts the sons of Adam for the Glory [whosoever will], He ascended to the heavenly temple mid-morning and offered before the Glory those saints as the "Wave Offering of earth's harvest of sons of God who were raised "perfected in cleansed souls, regenerated in the Spirit of Adoption, and regenerated in the resurrected body of Adoption" like His glorious body.

Then the full harvest of Pentecost is ingathered, which harvest is ongoing in this age of the Gentiles, but not yet ingathered in the fullness of the Gentiles "come in". The place we come in to is to the "barn/Heaven's temple" from whence the Seed came out [at the incarnation: Haggai 2].

Then the gleanings of Pentecost are those resurrected martyrs at the end of the tribulation. After that, the first harvest is ended and there is no more resurrection of the dead in Christ, for no one dies in the millennial reign except sinners, for their own sins and they die "accursed" and do not get a second chance but apparently go straight to the Lake of Fire, for the earth shall no more cover her slain, after the first harvest is ended [which is at the gleaning]: Isaiah 26:19-21

So in this age of the Church the first harvest is ongoing and every soul born again in Christ is part of that harvest typed in Pentecost. After the gleanings, it is fulfilled totally, and the feasts after that have only to do with Israel and will all be fulfilled totally.

To add: for the reason Jesus/Yeshua was serving as High Priest of earth and had an appointment to enter heaven's temple with the wave offering of the First of Firstfruits, He said to Mary: Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father [to the Glory] -to fulfill the First of Firstfruits oracle. The Oracle includes remaining ceremonially clean to go into the temple to stand before the Glory to offer anything [Haggai 2]: being touched by Mary would have defiled His flesh for the entry into the Temple to offer the Wave offering.



Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Bible2]

parousia70 said in post 67:

And the crickets are getting louder as we await an answer on WHERE in the synoptic accounts of the Olivet, that Jesus answered the disciples question about WHEN the temple would be destroyed.....

The end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the December 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2 the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

parousia70 said in post 67:

And the crickets are getting louder as we await an answer on WHERE in the synoptic accounts of the Olivet, that Jesus answered the disciples question about WHEN the temple would be destroyed.....

Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean the tribulation, 2nd coming and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011 and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061 but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

 

[Bible2]

yeshuasavedme said in post 76:

... the tribulation is in the beginning of the seven thousandth year ...

Did you mean the beginning of the seventh millennium, i.e. since the creation of Adam? If so, that could have occurred over a century ago. For various scriptures make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18).

And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). And Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 (Genesis 5:18). And Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 (Genesis 5:15). And Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 (Genesis 5:12). And Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 (Genesis 5:9). And Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 (Genesis 5:6). And Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 (Genesis 5:3).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact our current human civilization began about 4000 BC. If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the 7th millennium began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't mean the millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has started yet.) Also, it's curious that the next year (1888 AD) Blavatsky published her book (The Secret Doctrine) referring to the "New Age". Also, it's curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC. Also, the numbers of years in the scriptures referenced above show that Abraham (who was first promised the land of Israel by God: Exodus 32:13) was born about 1948 years after Adam's creation, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.

*******

yeshuasavedme said in post 97:

The Psalm 83 war is the closest thing to happening and even that has no bearing on when the rapture will occur, but that fulfillment is a sign to Israel that the Messianic age is upon them.

If Psalms 83 wasn't referring to a threat against Israel in the time of Asaph (the author of Psalms 83), but to some future event, it may not happen until the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39), which won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15) and will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least two major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

*******

yeshuasavedme said in post 98:

The Millennial temple that Ezekiel saw the plans for and wrote down is not the one that will be built for the soon coming tribulation period.

Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen, like those in Revelation must happen (Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while it was still in Old Testament/Old Covenant times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were abolished by Jesus on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

Nonetheless, when Jesus returns and begins his millennial reign on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21), he will still build a New Covenant, 4th temple building in Jerusalem; and New Covenant animal sacrifices will be offered in front of that temple (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). Instead of these sacrifices being for sin, they could be for thanksgiving (cf. Leviticus 22:29). Jesus could build that temple, and it could be operated according to the description in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48, but leaving out the parts about animal sacrifices for sin. Another possibility is that New Covenant animal sacrifices for sin will be made, but only as a remembrance of Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28), like how communion is currently partaken of in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (Luke 22:19). The current practice of communion could cease at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 11:26).

Also, after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), when the literal city of New Jerusalem will land on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3), there will no longer be any temple building (Revelation 21:22).

yeshuasavedme said in post 98:

... Jesus will call us to come, and we will rise to meet Him in the air/heaven, and hear Him say, "Come in, shut the doors behind you, and hide yourselves for a little while, till the indignation be past..."-Isaiah 26:19-21

Regarding Isaiah 26:19-21, verse 20 can start a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in the KJV. And so nothing requires that Isaiah 26:20-21 has to happen after Isaiah 26:19. Instead, Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

*******

yeshuasavedme said in post 108:

The first resurrection is in three stages: First of Firstfruits; full harvest; gleanings.

Or rather, the resurrection of humanity as a whole can be in 3 stages, just as the 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 bodily resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits bodily resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); 2. the future bodily resurrection of the entire church at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 and right before the millennium (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the bodily resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 104:

But according to my eschatology there is one Second Coming and one Resurrection - John 5:28-29

Regarding John 5:28-29, it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John there will be two (still-unfulfilled) bodily resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future bodily resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the first and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the first resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5) might be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

*******

random person said in post 106:

The first resurrection is spiritual. (Alive in Christ)
The second resurrection is physical. (The Resurrection)

While there is the figurative resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal in the sense of bodily (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the first resurrection will be the same, bodily type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years are over.

Also, the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal/bodily because it won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church that will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a literal/bodily resurrection, just like Jesus' literal/bodily resurrection at his first coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39).

random person said in post 106:

The first death is spiritual. (Dead in sin)
The second death is physical. (Damnation) Rev. 20:14

Let's not forget that Rev. 20:4 speaks of souls not glorified resurrected bodies.

Every time the word "souls" is used in the Bible it doesn't have to refer to dead people (Acts 27:37). For living people consist of a body, a soul, and a spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

But we do seem to be agreed that there's no "soul sleep". For only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

 

[ebedmelech]

I did, but the Jews want the temple, not the Christians.. do you understand??

you are trying to imply that Christians believe the temple will have a desired effect, however I submit that the third temple will have an adverse effect.

Christians are not Jews, we are the temple..

This is outlined in the gospel.

No...what I'm saying is you have Christian teachers (like Tim Lahaye), that actually believe in this 3rd temple (if it is ever built, I don't think it will be) the sacrifices the Jews would make there would be recognized by God and will bring them salvation.

I also *think* Hal Lindsey believes that too.

I know Christians are the temple, whether Jew or Gentile we are a spiritual house of God...you're preaching to the choir on that.

 

[Shocker]

No...what I'm saying is you have Christian teachers (like Tim Lahaye), that actually believe in this 3rd temple (if it is ever built, I don't think it will be) the sacrifices the Jews would make there would be recognized by God and will bring them salvation.

I also *think* Hal Lindsey believes that too.

I know Christians are the temple, whether Jew or Gentile we are a spiritual house of God...you're preaching to the choir on that.

You talk about this lahaye guy a lot, can you "bring me up to speed" and let me know why you think he has some mystic effect on Christian beliefs??

You know how many Christian quacks are writing books?? Televangelists??

Its all about the money..

I am not a dispensationalist, I agree with a lot of their doctrine, but I don't believe in a secret rapture or the actual dispensational periods themselves, it sounds accurate, but the Bible doesn't objectively discuss the matter.


Like I said, when the Jews build their temple, it will only bring judgment all the faster.

God destroyed the second temple because they couldn't figure it out, this will be no different.

It was always about faith in God, never the temple.

 

[ebedmelech]

You talk about this lahaye guy a lot, can you "bring me up to speed" and let me know why you think he has some mystic effect on Christian beliefs??

LaHaye's eschatological series "Left Behind" is a HUGE money maker and very popular among futurists. When I agreed with it I bought the first video, but I had also began to take a second look at dispensational eschatology", so I stopped with the fist one. Check out his website:
Left Behind

You know how many Christian quacks are writing books?? Televangelists??

Its all about the money..

I know...but because we have so many Christians getting their teaching from many of them, instead of reading and studying the word...that's where we are. (I'm not at all implying you're one...just that that's where we are).

I am not a dispensationalist, I agree with a lot of their doctrine, but I don't believe in a secret rapture or the actual dispensational periods themselves, it sounds accurate, but the Bible doesn't objectively discuss the matter.

I know. I've read that from your other posts. I used to be that. I attended an "Independent Fundamental Baptist" church when I was first saved. My pastor would always say "check it out in scripture"...so I did. That's when my mind started to change.

Like I said, when the Jews build their temple, it will only bring judgment all the faster.

Maybe. I don't think God is going to permit a temple to be built there, especially since we have the Jerusalem above and the temple in heaven.

God destroyed the second temple because they couldn't figure it out, this will be no different.

I happen to believe God destroyed the 2nd temple because Hebrews is teaching Christ fulfilled all that.

It was always about faith in God, never the temple.

Indeed!!!

 

[Shocker]

LaHaye's eschatological series "Left Behind" is a HUGE money maker and very popular among futurists. When I agreed with it I bought the first video, but I had also began to take a second look at dispensational eschatology", so I stopped with the fist one. Check out his website:
Left Behind

I know...but because we have so many Christians getting their teaching from many of them, instead of reading and studying the word...that's where we are. (I'm not at all implying you're one...just that that's where we are).

I know. I've read that from your other posts. I used to be that. I attended an "Independent Fundamental Baptist" church when I was first saved. My pastor would always say "check it out in scripture"...so I did. That's when my mind started to change.

Maybe. I don't think God is going to permit a temple to be built there, especially since we have the Jerusalem above and the temple in heaven.

I happen to believe God destroyed the 2nd temple because Hebrews is teaching Christ fulfilled all that.

Indeed!!!

Ah.. Left behind.....

Now I see why this guy has so much influence...

Itching ears..


The rest is a waiting game I suppose..

 

[Shocker]

The first resurrection is spiritual. (Alive in Christ)
The second resurrection is physical. (The Resurrection)

The first death is spiritual. (Dead in sin)
The second death is physical. (Damnation) Rev. 20:14

Let's not forget that Rev. 20:4 speaks of souls not glorified resurrected bodies.

Can you link me scripture to the "spiritual resurrection"??

 

[ebedmelech]

Can you link me scripture to the "spiritual resurrection"??

How about Colossians 3:1?:
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

This is the word "raised", according to Blue Letter Bible:
Greek Lexicon :: G4891 (NASB)

I think that makes the case!

 

[Shocker]

How about Colossians 3:1?:
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

This is the word "raised", according to Blue Letter Bible:
Greek Lexicon :: G4891 (NASB)

I think that makes the case!

I think that makes a great case too..

I suppose we are talking about physical resurrection tho, and are trying to pinpoint the first and second..

Did you look at what I posted regarding the first and second?

I think its worth a look..

 

[shturt678s]

How about Colossians 3:1?:
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

This is the word "raised", according to Blue Letter Bible:
Greek Lexicon :: G4891 (NASB)

I think that makes the case!

One of the few times we agree to agree

Old agreeing Jack