Does the Thief on the Cross bypass the Invesigative Judgement..

tall73 · Jan 12, 2012

Stryder06 said:
If you don't mind, could you explain to me how you understand the following verses?

If you don't mind, can you explain where you see a text that indicates all of the following elements of the IJ?

a. pre advent judgment
b. beginning in 1844
c. ONLY on the professed people of God.
d. in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type

Stryder06 · Jan 12, 2012

tall73 said:
If you don't mind, can you explain where you see a text that indicates all of the following elements of the IJ?

a. pre advent judgment
b. beginning in 1844
c. ONLY on the professed people of God.
d. in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type

I'm not very interested in arguing this with you. I just wanted to understand your take on the scriptures I provided after looking at what you read.

tall73 · Jan 14, 2012

tall73 said:
can you explain where you see a text that indicates all of the following elements of the IJ?

a. pre advent judgment
b. beginning in 1844
c. ONLY on the professed people of God.
d. in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type

Anyone else want to provide a text?

JohnMarsten · Jan 14, 2012

Stryder06 said:
I'm not very interested in arguing this with you. I just wanted to understand your take on the scriptures I provided after looking at what you read.

Not very interested or simply unable?

rainbowinthesky · Jan 15, 2012

The parable of Matt.22 was spoken more for the Advent people than for the Jewish people. When Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on the 22nd of October in 1844 this parable began its final application. Notice that at the end of the third call of the parable (end of the loud cry) the King comes into the room to examine the guests (verse 11) to see who is worthy to be present at the wedding which takes place in Heaven.

If this is not the investigative judgment of the living, what is it?

The parable of the net teaches the same thing.

At the end of the loud cry the ship comes to shore and the fish are examined, sorted. The bad fish are thrown back into the sea. This is a work of investigative judgment.

The Scriptures tell us that the judgment begins at the house of God. 1 Peter 4:17.

sky

JohnMarsten · Jan 15, 2012

rainbowinthesky said:
The parable of Matt.22 was spoken more for the Advent people than for the Jewish people. When Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on the 22nd of October in 1844 this parable began its final application. Notice that at the end of the third call of the parable (end of the loud cry) the King comes into the room to examine the guests (verse 11) to see who is worthy to be present at the wedding which takes place in Heaven.

If this is not the investigative judgment of the living, what is it?

The parable of the net teaches the same thing.

At the end of the loud cry the ship comes to shore and the fish are examined, sorted. The bad fish are thrown back into the sea. This is a work of investigative judgment.

The Scriptures tell us that the judgment begins at the house of God. 1 Peter 4:17.

sky

what I like about that parable is actually that god and bad people alike are invited to the wedding (at the last minute actually) it is one of those parables where you dont really know what its about... is it about long standing christians who at the final hour didnt wanna be saved? or is it about people who didnt care their whole life and then because the others didnt want to join were taken to fill the seats?

I just hope that in the end I will be present at that wedding with a suitable garnment and I hope that I wont have to prepare it myself but that the cloak of rightuousness of Jesus Christ will be sufficient for me...

As far as the investigative judgment is concerned I still dont see no reason why it is important to know about it. I read testimonies where people write they were afraid that their name would come up at this very moment and then they might be lost forever, I cant imagine that EGW wrote something like that, but there seems to be some paranoia regarding it... personally I believe in accepting Jesus and hoping for the best, I mean the good book says that the Holy Spirit will accomplish this whole mystery of sanctification, there isnt much that we can do about it...

and thats another problem with EGW, once you start reading her books you might actually start doing things on your own and then if the Holy Spirit is doing is, why do you need her writings?

tall73 · Jan 15, 2012

rainbowinthesky said:
The parable of Matt.22 was spoken more for the Advent people than for the Jewish people. When Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on the 22nd of October in 1844 this parable began its final application. Notice that at the end of the third call of the parable (end of the loud cry) the King comes into the room to examine the guests (verse 11) to see who is worthy to be present at the wedding which takes place in Heaven.

If this is not the investigative judgment of the living, what is it?

It is not the Adventist IJ.

Mat 22:1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying,
Mat 22:2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son,
Mat 22:3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.
Mat 22:4 Again he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.'
Mat 22:5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business,
Mat 22:6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them.
Mat 22:7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
Mat 22:8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.'
Mat 22:10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.
Mat 22:11 "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment.
Mat 22:12 And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

First off, I don't think it was more for the Advent people, unless you are contending that the Advent people killed the servants of God.

Nor is there a distinct city that would be destroyed as with Jerusalem.

Moreover, the King coming to see the guests and interact with them does not match up to the Adventist IJ.

The attendants take him right then and cast him out, which shows execution of the sentence, which does not happen at the IJ.

Moreover, in a related wedding feast parable the coming of the bridegroom at an unexpected time came before the wedding feast.

Mat 25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, lord, open to us.'
Mat 25:12 But he answered, 'Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

The feast followed the coming.

There is no reference to 1844. There is no reference to it being the fulfillment of the day of Atonement type.

tall73 · Jan 15, 2012

rainbowinthesky said:
The parable of the net teaches the same thing.

At the end of the loud cry the ship comes to shore and the fish are examined, sorted. The bad fish are thrown back into the sea. This is a work of investigative judgment.

This is not the Adventist IJ.

Mat 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.
Mat 13:48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad.
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

A. People, both bad and good are PRESENT. The IJ is only on the professed people of God, and they are not present.

B. Sentence is carried out, it is not in the IJ.

There is no reference to 1844.

There is no reference only being on the professed people of God, in fact it is clearly involving both.

There is no reference to it being the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type.

tall73 · Jan 15, 2012

rainbowinthesky said:
The Scriptures tell us that the judgment begins at the house of God. 1 Peter 4:17.

sky

Already addressed above, re-posting here

1Pe 4:14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And "If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

He sees it applying to his time, and the events involving the Christians being persecuted. He warns them that their actions during this time have eternal weight, not only for them, but for unbelievers who are in a worse position, but could be influenced by them.

No indication of 1844, in fact the construction suggests that it is happening at that time, beginning with them.

No indication of a fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type.

Stryder06 · Jan 16, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
Not very interested or simply unable?

I've had this conversation with Tall before

My reason for asking my questions was because, and please correct me if I'm wrong, he stated that judgement would occur at the 2nd coming, and that at that time "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess".

I believe scripture point out that judgment for the righteous, and judgment for the wicked occur at separate times. Thus I presented a few of the texts that pointed that out, and wanted to see what his understanding of that was.

tall73 · Jan 16, 2012

Stryder06 said:
I've had this conversation with Tall before

My reason for asking my questions was because, and please correct me if I'm wrong, he stated that judgement would occur at the 2nd coming, and that at that time "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess".

I believe scripture point out that judgment for the righteous, and judgment for the wicked occur at separate times. Thus I presented a few of the texts that pointed that out, and wanted to see what his understanding of that was.

I was addressing the idea that there had to be a judgment before hand for Jesus to know who to save. That is not the case as He knows His own.

The other texts I posted to indicate that all confess, so you don't need prolonged investigation. Several of these texts do indicate this happens at Jesus' coming, but that was not my main burden to show. The point is there is no dispute over God's justice if all confess.

What I was asking for from you or others is a text that includes the elements characteristic of Ellen White's IJ:

a. pre advent judgment
b. beginning in 1844
c. ONLY on the professed people of God.
d. in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type

So far no text has been presented.

OntheDL · Jan 16, 2012

tall73 said:
If you don't mind, can you explain where you see a text that indicates all of the following elements of the IJ?

a. pre advent judgment
b. beginning in 1844
c. ONLY on the professed people of God.
d. in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type

Hi tall,

Nice to see you in the 1844 discussion again.

Our 1844 message is based on the understanding of the sanctuary message that is taught throughout the bible. It's well documented that all the supporting arguments were presented to you in the days before you got off the SDA payroll. You do not agree with our interpretation. But they have been shown to you many times. And it's not EGW's IJ message.

Jesus didn't need a judgment to know who's saved. But He needs it to demonstrate his justice because it's questioned.

BTW, do you still believe the sabbath is binding on the NT Christians?

tall73 · Jan 17, 2012

OntheDL said:
Hi tall,

Nice to see you in the 1844 discussion again.

Our 1844 message is based on the understanding of the sanctuary message that is taught throughout the bible. It's well documented that all the supporting arguments were presented to you in the days before you got off the SDA payroll.

a. Well we certainly had a lot of discussion on particulars of my big issue, Hebrews, and also such things as sin transfer.

This is something rather simpler. I am asking what text has the needed elements. Rather than me tell you the issues with the doctrine as was done before, I am asking you to show its biblical support.

Where is the text that has the needed elements?

b. If you think it was all covered before, and is documented, it should be easy to find that text.

And it's not EGW's IJ message.

No, not just Ellen's, it is a fundamental belief. Or at least in theory, but few Adventists anymore will claim it. However, I reference Ellen White because the modern IJ is a moving target. Folks tend to morph it different directions, depending on their leaning in the church. Ellen White's statements on the subject form a baseline so that we can have a general working definition that most Adventists would accept.

If you doubt this, let me ask you, do you accept Ellen White's description of it as the accurate church belief?

Jesus didn't need a judgment to know who's saved.

Good, we agree.

But He needs it to demonstrate his justice because it's questioned.

When all confess it will no longer be in question. I provided several texts where the Bible pictures this happening.

But if you feel that the Adventist version of the IJ is what shows God's justice,, show the text that has the needed elements.

Stryder06 · Jan 17, 2012

tall73 said:
I was addressing the idea that there had to be a judgment before hand for Jesus to know who to save. That is not the case as He knows His own.

The IJ doesn't teach that this is necessary so that Christ know who to save.

The other texts I posted to indicate that all confess, so you don't need prolonged investigation. Several of these texts do indicate this happens at Jesus' coming, but that was not my main burden to show. The point is there is no dispute over God's justice if all confess.

Truth. There's really no dispute over God's justice at all since God is God. He's doing this however so there won't be a doubt left in anyone's mind. What I was pointing out was that the confession will not be at the second coming, nor the judgment of the righteous.

What I was asking for from you or others is a text that includes the elements characteristic of Ellen White's IJ:

a. pre advent judgment
b. beginning in 1844
c. ONLY on the professed people of God.
d. in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type

So far no text has been presented.

As far as I can tell, no text presented would suffice for you. Peter stated that judgment was to begin at the house of God. Revelations declares within the 3rd angels message that the time for judgment was at hand. It also shows that the wicked aren't judged until the white throne judgment, which occurs after the thousand years.

JohnMarsten · Jan 17, 2012

will it have any effect if somebody doesnt believe in the investigative judgment theory?

I mean if it truly exists, awareness of the judgment doesnt change anything or does it?

tall73 · Jan 17, 2012

Stryder06 said:
The IJ doesn't teach that this is necessary so that Christ know who to save.

And yet some in this thread contend that:

EastCoastRemnant said:
We do know that when Jesus comes again He brings His reward with Him so the judgement of the righteous would have already been done.

Hence my addressing it.

Jesus doesn't need the judgment to know His own.

Stryder06 · Jan 17, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
will it have any effect if somebody doesnt believe in the investigative judgment theory?

I mean if it truly exists, awareness of the judgment doesnt change anything or does it?

It helps in so much that it gives a better explanation as to what's going on. It also serves as a reminder as to how one should live their lives in these last days.

tall73 · Jan 17, 2012

Stryder06 said:
The IJ doesn't teach that this is necessary so that Christ know who to save.

Truth. There's really no dispute over God's justice at all since God is God. He's doing this however so there won't be a doubt left in anyone's mind. What I was pointing out was that the confession will not be at the second coming, nor the judgment of the righteous.

We can always discuss the timing of the confession in another thread, but since you acknowledge that it happens, that is sufficient for my point.

If everyone confesses there is no issue of justice. People are confronted in the judgment and confess--and that is not the IJ, where people are not confronted, are not present, and do not confess.

Stryder06 · Jan 17, 2012

tall73 said:
And yet some in this thread contend that:

Hence my addressing it.

Jesus doesn't need the judgment to know His own.

I don't know if anyone here is contending that. It could be that what they're saying is coming across wrong to certain individuals. Given the nature of God, I highly doubt someone here is thinking that Jesus is doing this because He doesn't know who He will and won't save.

tall73 · Jan 17, 2012

Stryder06 said:
As far as I can tell, no text presented would suffice for you.

A text that contains the criteria would. The absence of such is not my failing.

Peter stated that judgment was to begin at the house of God.

Have you assessed what I mentioned about the text earlier?

You have not yet responded to what was noted about that text when you mentioned it the first time. So mentioning it again, without addressing what was said before does not support your position.

I still would like you to read what I said before on it. But let me make it as simple as possible:

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God

He was speaking about this beginning in his day.

Did Peter live in 1844?

Does the Thief on the Cross bypass the Invesigative Judgement..

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