Does the Thief on the Cross bypass the Invesigative Judgement..

OntheDL · Jan 30, 2012

tall73 said:
But that is just the point. Daniel 8 does not describe the Day of Atonement. The whole context is of the actions of the little horn. And the restoration of the sanctuary is from the activities of the little horn.

The question was how long will it go on. 8:14 was the answer.

So to bring in an "interpretation" on a different verse not being referenced is not correctly understanding Daniel 8.

Read again

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

The daily is tammid. Using the law of first mention, this is the daily service that takes place in the sanctuary continually.

The little horn after its rise to power, by its substitutes, sacraments, rituals and traditions had taken away the daily and cast down the sanctuary: deceived the church about the plan of salvation took their direct access to Jesus' and his ministry on their behalf.

The question was asked, how long for vision of the daily, the abomination of desolation, the trodding down of the sanctuary and the host?

The answer: when the sanctuary is cleansed.

The word atonement (at one ment) does mean restoration/reparation/reconciliation: to repair the damage done by the little horn and restore Christ' ministry to the people and to examine the evidence to vindicate the saints.

OntheDL · Jan 30, 2012

tall73 said:
We certainly agree that God taking action against the little horn is pictured in both Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.

However, your reading into chapter 7 and 8 the Adventist IJ only on professed believers is where we have the issue.

Chapter 7 includes non-professed believers. It is a judgment on nations, not individuals. The saints are seen as a group and their identity is never in question. Their deliverance is from oppressive powers who are judged.

This is not the Adventist IJ.

Chapter 8 deals with nations and then the activities of the little horn. The end of the chapter deals with a question about how long it will go on. The answer actually answers that question.

It does not reference the Day of Atonement.

It is not the Adventist IJ either.

In a controversy between two opposing groups, if one group is vindicated, what does it say about the other group? The fact the wicked are not included in the first judgment says they are judged by default.

OntheDL · Jan 30, 2012

tall73 said:
A. you never demonstrated 1844 in Revelation.

B. You never answered the issues with cutting off or the starting time or the complete vision in regards to Daniel 8 and 9.

C. If one connects the little horn and Babylon then you could well see similar descriptions of judgment in Daniel 8 and Rev. 14. However, it is executive judgment promised in Daniel 8 and played out in Revelation.

Nor is God's judgment on powers the same as the Adventist IJ which is on individual professed believers.

And Daniel 7 where you claim to see the judgment includes the Medes, Persians, etc. which were not professed people of God.

A. the date of 1844 came from Daniel 7, 8 & 9. The Rev 10's bitter sweet experience came with the reference to the unsealing of the book in the end time.

B. This post already answered the questions on the cutting off/starting date and the completion of the 2300 days.

C. God always investigates before he executes judgment. IJ before EJ: judgment on Adam and Eve, on Cain and Abel, on Achan, on Israel...

tall73 · Jan 30, 2012

OntheDL said:
Daniel 7 does not say judgment was for people such as Medes, Babylonians, Greeks...

But it does.

Their authority was stripped away by that judgment.

Dan 7:11 "I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

OntheDL said:
In a controversy between two opposing groups, if one group is vindicated, what does it say about the other group? The fact the wicked are not included in the first judgment says they are judged by default.

But they are included. The little horn is actively destroyed. It is quite definitely judged. And the other powers have their power stripped. That is again active judgment.

This is a picture of God judging the nations.

The saints are pictured as a group being persecuted and no reference at all is made to individual scrutiny on the saints. The saints are delivered as a group and the beast power is destroyed.

Now another issue never addressed is why the onlooking universe that needs so much evidence to believe God on every action every taken by someone who professes to follow God would not also want to review the wicked case by case to see if they ever professed God.

If they don't believe God on the merits of each individual case, why would they believe Him on who gets to be in the first judgment in the first place?

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

OntheDL said:
Read again

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

The daily is tammid. Using the law of first mention, this is the daily service that takes place in the sanctuary continually.

The little horn after its rise to power, by its substitutes, sacraments, rituals and traditions had taken away the daily and cast down the sanctuary: deceived the church about the plan of salvation took their direct access to Jesus' and his ministry on their behalf.

The question was asked, how long for vision of the daily, the abomination of desolation, the trodding down of the sanctuary and the host?

The answer: when the sanctuary is cleansed.

The word atonement (at one ment) does mean restoration/reparation/reconciliation: to repair the damage done by the little horn and restore Christ' ministry to the people and to examine the evidence to vindicate the saints.

A. The vision deals with how long the power will cast down. The same activity you don't like about the Catholic church is still ongoing. It did not end in 1844, which was what the question asked.

Until when means just that. The restoration was from the activities that were casting it down.

Now a more straight-forward fulfillment would be that the power that was doing the defiling was dealt with and the temple was restored from that defiling.

B. Even the notion of the IJ developed after 1844. They were still believing the shut door for a while in Adventism. So no sudden change of understanding of the means of forgiveness occurred.

C. The context simply doesn't discuss the Day of Atonement which your own scholars admit.

Now naturally, you will reject them on this basis. But the text still remains talking about restoration from the activity of the horn.

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

OntheDL said:
A. the date of 1844 came from Daniel 7, 8 & 9. The Rev 10's bitter sweet experience came with the reference to the unsealing of the book in the end time.

IE, you STILL haven't demonstrated 1844 in Revelation. You just again decide to read it in.

You know what you need to show to put 1844 in Revelation? Something in Revelation talking about 1844.

But when you are looking to find something the standard of demonstration is lowered.

By all means, go point by point through this text and demonstrate how you get 1844, what book is being unsealed, etc.

And your reading of 1844 depends on your mistaken notion that the vision was incomplete. He already sealed it up in chapter 8. It didn't need finishing.

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

OntheDL said:
B. This post already answered the questions on the cutting off/starting date and the completion of the 2300 days.

Maybe it is a system issue but that doesn't seem to take me to a post by you.

Can you give the number?

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

OntheDL said:
C. God always investigates before he executes judgment. IJ before EJ: judgment on Adam and Eve, on Cain and Abel, on Achan, on Israel...

Which is not an issue at all when we see a number of texts that talk about judgment in His presence, bowing the knee, confession, etc. all of which do in fact show confrontation, investigation, etc. but do not happen at the Adventist IJ.

But you can't show the texts that demonstrate the elements of the Adventist IJ.

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
Unless you watch some of the Seven Thunders presentations, you will not understand the verse. In a very condensed nutshell, the curse spoken of against God's people began with the 10 tribes being taken ito captivity in 723BC. Thus the persecution began... 2520 years later, in 1798, the curse was ended and the persecution ended as supported by Rev.

The remaining two tribes of Judah were taken into captivity in 677 BC which signalled the final scattering of God's people... 2520 years later, in 1844, God's people were again gathered, consecrated with the cleansing of the sanctuary on the anti typical day of Atonement.

There is much, much more supporting evidense of this, both Biblical and SOP. Here's an interesting fact, the persecution of God's people was equally divided between paganisn and papalism, 1260 years each.

By all means, enlightens us here by spelling it all out. This is a discussion forum. Discuss.

EastCoastRemnant · Jan 31, 2012

tall73 said:
Now another issue never addressed is why the onlooking universe that needs so much evidence to believe God on every action every taken by someone who professes to follow God would not also want to review the wicked case by case to see if they ever professed God.

If they don't believe God on the merits of each individual case, why would they believe Him on who gets to be in the first judgment in the first place?

The resurrected saints will be doing the investigation of the wicked during the 1000 years so that when they will come down in the city and the wicked encircle it and are destroyed, there will be no question as to their guilt and need of destruction along with Lucifer and his angels.

Again, I'm sure this isn't the first time you've heard this. Seems like you just like to omit or feign ignorance on certain doctrines we have.

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
The resurrected saints will be doing the investigation of the wicked during the 1000 years so that when they will come down in the city and the wicked encircle it and are destroyed, there will be no question as to their guilt and need of destruction along with Lucifer and his angels.

Again, I'm sure this isn't the first time you've heard this. Seems like you just like to omit or feign ignorance on certain doctrines we have.

I think you missed the point.

Folks keep talking about how when Jesus comes He already has his reward, so it has been determined by then. But the court only looked at some of the cases and not those of others. So how would that provide evidence?

Now yes, the scriptures say we will judge angels. How does that support the pre-advent IJ?

If anything it shows it is not necessary. There will be time to investigate all cases.

If humans can be content with finding it out after the fact why would not angels?

But if angels were not then why would they not want all the evidence?

If the angels needed evidence to show that God got the cases of the professed people of God correct, then why would they trust Him to select those who were not professed people of God in the first place?

EastCoastRemnant · Jan 31, 2012

tall73 said:
I think you missed the point.

Folks keep talking about how when Jesus comes He already has his reward, so it has been determined by then. But the court only looked at some of the cases and not those of others. So how would that provide evidence?

Now yes, the scriptures say we will judge angels. How does that support the pre-advent IJ?

If anything it shows it is not necessary. There will be time to investigate all cases.

If humans can be content with finding it out after the fact why would not angels?

But if angels were not then why would they not want all the evidence?

If the angels needed evidence to show that God got the cases of the professed people of God correct, then why would they trust Him to select those who were not professed people of God in the first place?

Christ our High Priest in His mediatorial work in the Most Holy is to preform the service of the typical day of atonement. The sanctuary and its services are essential for understanding this work that Christ began in 1844. I can get into the point by point comparison of the sanctuary service and our role in the confession, repentence and transfering of our sins upon the slain lamb and upon the sanctuary, but I'm sure you are aware of this. If the earthly sanctuary was a pattern for the Heavenly, then why is it so hard to see the different aspects having a Heavenly or Spiritiual fulfillment?

The sanctuary service was not for the unrepentant to be judged so I don't see how you can lump the two together at the end...

OntheDL · Jan 31, 2012

tall73 said:
But it does.

Their authority was stripped away by that judgment.

Dan 7:11 "I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

vs 12 says the rest of beasts had their dominion taken away and but their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The rest of the beasts (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Pagan Rome) did have their kingdoms taken away. But their religious systems, philosophies, laws were preserved in papal Rome until the Little Horn itself was judged and destroyed at the end of judgment.

OntheDL · Jan 31, 2012

tall73 said:
But they are included. The little horn is actively destroyed. It is quite definitely judged. And the other powers have their power stripped. That is again active judgment.

This is a picture of God judging the nations.

The saints are pictured as a group being persecuted and no reference at all is made to individual scrutiny on the saints. The saints are delivered as a group and the beast power is destroyed.

Now another issue never addressed is why the onlooking universe that needs so much evidence to believe God on every action every taken by someone who professes to follow God would not also want to review the wicked case by case to see if they ever professed God.

If they don't believe God on the merits of each individual case, why would they believe Him on who gets to be in the first judgment in the first place?

Yeah, the saints are judged first because the judgment shall begin with the house of God.

The saints are delivered as a group at the conclusion of judgment. The beast and the wicked are destroyed at the conclusion of judgment.

The wicked never accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. If they had, there would have been a record of blood of the lamb covering their sins. This is the whole point of the IJ. Examination of the record of the sins covered by the blood of the lamb vindicates the saints and the lack of the record thereof condemns the wicked. And this is the cleansing of the sanctuary to resolve the controversy between the two opposing groups.

OntheDL · Jan 31, 2012

tall73 said:
A. The vision deals with how long the power will cast down. The same activity you don't like about the Catholic church is still ongoing. It did not end in 1844, which was what the question asked.

Until when means just that. The restoration was from the activities that were casting it down.

Now a more straight-forward fulfillment would be that the power that was doing the defiling was dealt with and the temple was restored from that defiling.

The day of atonement presents a phase in the history of salvation. It's a period in which the whole fate of humanity is decided. The judgment of the Little Horn is just a part of it. Yeah, the activities didn't end in 1844. But restoration has taken place since 1844, the Millerites remnant began preaching of Jesus' ministry in the heavenly sanctuary since 1844. And in contrast the activities(substitutes, sacraments and traditions) of the Little Horn haven been brought into greater light and many have come out of the harlot and her harlot daughters.

This is the judgment of the Little Horn. It won't be destroyed until the completion of the judgment and the time when everyone decides for himself or herself who to follow: to honour God and His law or Satan, his agent the Little Horn power and their traditions.

B. Even the notion of the IJ developed after 1844. They were still believing the shut door for a while in Adventism. So no sudden change of understanding of the means of forgiveness occurred.

The door is still shut to the outer court for those who have not enter into the Holy Place and then the Most Holy place by the merit of Christ.

Why would there be forgiveness for those have not accepted his forgiveness and willingly let him sanctify and prepare them for the judgment?

C. The context simply doesn't discuss the Day of Atonement which your own scholars admit.

Now naturally, you will reject them on this basis. But the text still remains talking about restoration from the activity of the horn.

Our own scholars? Under whose education most of the pastoral students don't understand and believe our own message?

I must say these scholars have done well scholarly.

It says cleansing of the sanctuary. I know you are trying hard to get around this text. But it is still the one and only cleanse of the sanctuary that takes place typically on the Day of Atonement.

It's restoration. Restoring the sanctuary to its original condition. Examining the blood stained evidence to decide who gets to who does not get to take part in the Feast of Tabernacle in which God will again tabernacle with man.

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
Christ our High Priest in His mediatorial work in the Most Holy is to preform the service of the typical day of atonement. The sanctuary and its services are essential for understanding this work that Christ began in 1844. I can get into the point by point comparison of the sanctuary service and our role in the confession, repentence and transfering of our sins upon the slain lamb and upon the sanctuary, but I'm sure you are aware of this. If the earthly sanctuary was a pattern for the Heavenly, then why is it so hard to see the different aspects having a Heavenly or Spiritiual fulfillment?

The sanctuary service was not for the unrepentant to be judged so I don't see how you can lump the two together at the end...

In the camp of Israel they were all professed believers or they were cut off.

However, I keep hearing justification for the ij that the angels needed evidence. And if that was the case you would expect they want evidence for all people.

However, by all means show where you find the IJ to be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement.

I am still waiting on a text that even includes the elements of the IJ.

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

OntheDL said:
vs 12 says the rest of beasts had their dominion taken away and but their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The rest of the beasts (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Pagan Rome) did have their kingdoms taken away. But their religious systems, philosophies, laws were preserved in papal Rome until the Little Horn itself was judged and destroyed at the end of judgment.

I take it you are agreeing with me at this point.

The judgment did take away their dominion. And it did judge the little horn power. Not all in the little horn would be professed believers necessarily either as some go with it only because of convenience.

So again, this is not a judgment only on the professed people of God.

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

OntheDL said:
Yeah, the saints are judged first because the judgment shall begin with the house of God.

The saints are delivered as a group at the conclusion of judgment. The beast and the wicked are destroyed at the conclusion of judgment.

And the other nations have their authority stripped. This again is a judgment that does not meet the criteria of the IJ. More than the professed believers are judged. It is not just on the righteous at all. The nations, the little horn, etc. are all judged here.

The wicked never accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. If they had, there would have been a record of blood of the lamb covering their sins. This is the whole point of the IJ. Examination of the record of the sins covered by the blood of the lamb vindicates the saints and the lack of the record thereof condemns the wicked. And this is the cleansing of the sanctuary to resolve the controversy between the two opposing groups.

But that is just the point. They wouldn't know who had or had not confessed Jesus without an investigation of every record.

If they doubted God got the cases of those with a record right, why would they think He got right who had a record in the first place?

And the only text you can find to support your view of this shows judgment on more than just the professed people of God, and therefore doesn't fit the criteria.

tall73 · Jan 31, 2012

OntheDL said:
Yeah, the saints are judged first because the judgment shall begin with the house of God.

The saints are delivered as a group at the conclusion of judgment. The beast and the wicked are destroyed at the conclusion of judgment.

The wicked never accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. If they had, there would have been a record of blood of the lamb covering their sins. This is the whole point of the IJ. Examination of the record of the sins covered by the blood of the lamb vindicates the saints and the lack of the record thereof condemns the wicked. And this is the cleansing of the sanctuary to resolve the controversy between the two opposing groups.

You still haven't shown a Day of Atonement context to Chapter 8 anyway. It is all about the activities of the little horn which did not cease in 1844.

Does the Thief on the Cross bypass the Invesigative Judgement..

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