Does the Father have higher authority than the Son?

[Wayne Gabler]

That's above unbelief. . .heresy is different.

What is the fate of a heretic? That is what my question was about, is there no ready answer??
I've been a sincere reader for 30 years or so, you comment doesn't even rate a reply really as it contains your opinion only. I doubt you are any more special to God than any of His other creations, so your post basically is, 'I have no informative reply to make at this time.'
What you said about me would have God move you from being part of the 1,000-year group to the GWT group, as you are promoting you are saved, and I am not.
Lu:6:37:
Judge not,
and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not,
and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive,
and ye shall be forgiven:

When I encounter an obvious sinner I can say, 'He is not saved yet'. Like 1Cor:5 mentions sinners. A Christian can work side by side and not be in sin, when he starts eating with sinners then God will treat him like a sinner, Vs:5 resurrection rather than Vs:4.
Da:12:1-2:
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That was an instruction from Adam that God never placed on Adam.

Just for your consideration: You really don't know that. The fact that it is not mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[Clare73]

There are lots of false doctrines and one single accurate version.
1Tm:1:10:
For whoremongers,
for them that defile themselves with mankind,
for menstealers,
for liars,
for perjured persons,
and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

2Tm:4:3:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears;

You should be able to supply an answer to the question I will be supplying an answer to:
1Th:5:1-6:
But of the times and the seasons,
brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say,
Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child;
and they shall not escape.
But ye,
brethren,
are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day:
we are not of the night,
nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep,
as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.

The party when the two witnesses are in the grave:
Re:11:7-15:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them,
and kill them.
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them,
and make merry,
and shall send gifts one to another;
because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Re:16:1-2:
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels,
Go your ways,
and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast,
and upon them which worshipped his image.
.
.
Re:16:15-21:
Behold,
I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth,
and keepeth his garments,
lest he walk naked,
and they see his shame.
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven,
from the throne,
saying,
It is done.
And there were voices,
and thunders,
and lightnings;
and there was a great earthquake,
such as was not since men were upon the earth,
so mighty an earthquake,
and so great.
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And every island fled away,
and the mountains were not found.
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,
every stone about the weight of a talent:
and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail;
for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The 1st day of the 1,000 years is the day the two witnesses are resurrected.


I'm going to assume they are in that long list of references another poster left. Under your theory the Gentiles in Acts:10 were not saved as their only confession would have been they believed the doubting Thomas story was a real event. Further along is Matt:25 and the dividing of the sheep/goats using the same 7 vials. People feeding the poor, and confessing the story was true, will be resurrected to life if they are not alive before the vials are poured out.
Your sect seems to have added so many other items, it would be a wonder if anyone is resurrected as a Christian at all.

The 7 letters have 14 different relations a person can have with God, 7 are good enough you will survive the vials, 7 are lacking qualities, they are resurrected 1,000 years later. I would belong to the hot/cold Church based on my path to God so far. I doubt there are many Christians who even know they are part of one of those Churches, as this verse covers everyone alive when the trumps start sounding.

I don't take my doctrine from prophetic riddles.

That and more if I can give you the 'big picture' that I just did. You have read a bit of what I have to say about a few topics related to the Bible. Since I do all my own writing, the past 30 years was not wasted time.
I'm not out to convert anyone, my long explanations are to show by doctrine is based on many long passages rather than a single verse and pages explaining why the Bible's plain meaning is far from the truth.
Do you pass the test that you are more of an expert about the Bible than I am?

The little I know about you so far involves 'the trinity, the pre-trib rapture, and by extension the 7 year trib should also be part of what you believe.

Sorry, do not believe in "pre-trib rapture" nor "7 year trib."

That is based on the 70th week of Daniel:9 being split off and mover from the past to the future. There are a few 'flaws' with the way the references are used. Rome is in the brass kingdom rather than in the iron/clay one:
Loading Google Docs, The Brass Kingdom with Rome included.docx

Is there a rapture thread as my post about that topic is a few pages long?

 

[Clare73]

What is the fate of a heretic? That is what my question was about, is there no ready answer??

If he is born again, his fate is heavenly glory. If he is not born again, his fate is eternal damnation.

I've been a sincere reader for 30 years or so, you comment doesn't even rate a reply really as it contains your opinion only. I doubt you are any more special to God than any of His other creations, so your post basically is, 'I have no informative reply to make at this time.'
What you said about me would have God move you from being part of the 1,000-year group to the GWT group, as you are promoting you are saved, and I am not.
Lu:6:37:
Judge not,
and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not,
and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive,
and ye shall be forgiven:

When I encounter an obvious sinner I can say, 'He is not saved yet'. Like 1Cor:5 mentions sinners. A Christian can work side by side and not be in sin, when he starts eating with sinners then God will treat him like a sinner, Vs:5 resurrection rather than Vs:4.
Da:12:1-2:
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Just for your consideration: You really don't know that. The fact that it is not mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen.

God never gave that instruction to Adam, did Eve invent it herself? Adam was older, he taught Eve what God taught him during all of day1.
Ge:3:2-3:
And the woman said unto the serpent,
We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,
God hath said,
Ye shall not eat of it,
neither shall ye touch it,
lest ye die.

Would Adam or Eve have died from touching the fruit?
Ge:2:16-18:
And the LORD God commanded the man,
saying,
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And the LORD God said,
It is not good that the man should be alone;
I will make him an help meet for him.

'That day' is based on Re:21 being the set of laws in place because of whom the 'sons of God' are. 1,000 years is equal to 1 day. Adam died at the age of 930 years, 70 years short of being judged as a sinner. By going to the grave, all sins committed in the flesh are left behind when a mortal person is resurrected as an immortal person. (Job:14)

 

[Mark Quayle]

God never gave that instruction to Adam, did Eve invent it herself? Adam was older, he taught Eve what God taught him during all of day1.
Ge:3:2-3:
And the woman said unto the serpent,
We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,
God hath said,
Ye shall not eat of it,
neither shall ye touch it,
lest ye die.

Would Adam or Eve have died from touching the fruit?
Ge:2:16-18:
And the LORD God commanded the man,
saying,
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And the LORD God said,
It is not good that the man should be alone;
I will make him an help meet for him.

'That day' is based on Re:21 being the set of laws in place because of whom the 'sons of God' are. 1,000 years is equal to 1 day. Adam died at the age of 930 years, 70 years short of being judged as a sinner. By going to the grave, all sins committed in the flesh are left behind when a mortal person is resurrected as an immortal person. (Job:14)

How does any of this prove that God didn't say not to touch it?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

If he is born again, his fate is heavenly glory. If he is not born again, his fate is eternal damnation.

'Damnation' ends at the Great White Throne. The ones that die as non-believers sleep until woken up at 'Judgment Day'. The ones sent to hell are the 2/3 of the living that are killed by the 7 vials. The ones the Seas give up are all the 6-fingered people from the OT that were exterminated during the exodus wars. They are part of the saved because all their mothers were f-fingered women, like all people who are 'the seed of Eve.
Re:7 is about the two groups created in these verses. The 144,000 represent the people who will be resurrected because they are in the Re:20:4 list. The 2nd group in Re:7 is a group that has come through 'great tribulation'. Being thrown into hell (Isa:14 and Isa:65) is 'great tribulation'. The punishments run for a set length of time, then they are viewed as being as sinless as the people alive at 6PM on the day the two witnesses are resurrected.

Hebrews:12 is an expansion on Judgment Day, it is a time of chastisement and forgiveness and then moving on with life in the sinless Kingdom of God. The ones gathered first are given New Jerusalem to call home. The rest are scattered across the universe to live the same existence Adam and Eve would have if sin had never entered the world. The task given to this group is to make the universe look like Eden did at the end of Ge:1. They and their children will come to New Jerusalem many times. Children come when they are 120 years old, that is when God changes a mortal into an immortal by letting them eat from both trees at the same time. After that, the child can go anyplace in the new earth as they no longer need food to stay alive.

Re:7:9-16:
After this I beheld,
and,
lo,
a great multitude,
which no man could number,
of all nations,
and kindreds,
and people,
and tongues,
stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes,
and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice,
saying,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne,
and about the elders and the four beasts,
and fell before the throne on their faces,
and worshipped God,
Saying,
Amen:
Blessing,
and glory,
and wisdom,
and thanksgiving,
and honour,
and power,
and might,
be unto our God for ever and ever.
Amen.
And one of the elders answered,
saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes?
and whence came they?
And I said unto him,
Sir,
thou knowest.
And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple:
and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more,
neither thirst any more;
neither shall the sun light on them,
nor any heat.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,
and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:
and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Heb:12:6-8:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers,
then are ye bastards,
and not sons.
Heb:12:22-25:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Isa:65:12-19:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
for,
behold,
I create Jerusalem a rejoicing,
and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.
.
.
Isa:65:21-25:
And they shall build houses,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and eat the fruit of them.
They shall not build,
and another inhabit;
they shall not plant,
and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock:
and dust shall be the serpent's meat.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,
saith the LORD.

If Satan is destroyed at the end of the 1,000 years nobody but fallen angels will be around him in the lake. The sinful children of Adam and Eve will join with the sinless ones and together they step into the eternity of the new earth exist. It cannot begin until this sinful earth is 'removed'.

Isa:66:22:
For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me,
saith the LORD,
so shall your seed and your name remain
Re:21:1-8:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city,
new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

How does any of this prove that God didn't say not to touch it?

Do you want to promote the text I'm reading is in error?
Re:22:18-19:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things,
God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life,
and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.

Should I adjust the book to say what I'm comfortable with?
How many 'born again' Christians think they are sin free because of grace? This verse would be 'problematic' without some magical meaning being applied.
Ro:5:19-21:
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered,
that the offence might abound.
But where sin abounded,
grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro:6:1-2:
What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin,
that grace may abound?
God forbid.
How shall we,
that are dead to sin,
live any longer therein?

Eph:2:8-9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works,
lest any man should boast.
Jas:2:14-17:
What doth it profit,
my brethren,
though a man say he hath faith,
and have not works?
can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked,
and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them,
Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled;
notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works,
is dead,
being alone.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I don't take my doctrine from prophetic riddles.

If any part of the Bible is a mystery to you, do what I did, keep studying until you have the answers to your question. Nobody but you will give it their 'best effort'
Isa:28:9-10:
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk,
and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept,
precept upon precept;
line upon line,
line upon line;
here a little,
and there a little:

Are these accurate?
Seals, trumps and vials..docx, Visions and explanations.docx

After you read the vision again after reading it and the explanation, will your understanding of what is being said change at all?

As for the missing part of your comment, 'Good for you'.

 

[Clare73]

'Damnation' ends at the Great White Throne. The ones that die as non-believers sleep until woken up at 'Judgment Day'.

Your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles is in disagreement with the plain and simple words of Jesus that punishment is eternal (Matthew 25:46).

 

[Clare73]

If any part of the Bible is a mystery to you, do what I did, keep studying until you have the answers to your question. Nobody but you will give it their 'best effort'

For our answers to be correct, they must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, which temporary damnation is not (Matthew 25:46).

 

[Wayne Gabler]

For our answers to be correct, they must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, which temporary damnation is not (Matthew 26:46).

M't:26:46:
Rise,
let us be going:
behold,
he is at hand that doth betray me.

Perhaps you were thinking of another verse.

If any of the conclusions are in error, the whole theory is in error. Do you agree with that, or would you just go into some sort of 'damage mode', like ignoring the references entirely? Christ was the one talking with Abraham, who are the two unidentified 'ones' if it was not God and the Holy Spirit?
Is this an example of the Holy Spirit speaking when God and Christ are also identified as being there as well?
Re:4:5:
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices:

M't:25:46:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal.
and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne,
which are the seven Spirits of God.

At the beginning of the 1,000 years, the 'servants' are alive and living the Zec:14 prophecy. The people Jesus kills are sinners, they go to hell. Hell is a locked cage in a place called 'the Pit'. It is an escap[e-proof prison for immortal being that cannot be put in a sleep mode like mortal people do when they die and enter the grave. They sleep until woken up, believers are first and the missing children of Adam and Eve are the last ones to be woken up.
The Pit was open during the flood, holy angels put sinful Ge:6 sons of God there until their appointed.
Most things in the Bible have a beginning and an end. The gathered are alive for all the 1,000 years and the 'eternity' of the new earth.
Eternity in hell for people is from the return until God releases them from that place. There are no 'days off' during that time.

Prophecy:
Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also,
the seventh from Adam,
prophesied of these,
saying,
Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Historical event:
De:33:2:
And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Re:12:7-9:
And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out,
that old serpent,
called the Devil,
and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.
Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Re:20:7-10:
And when the thousand years are expired,
Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth,
Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle:
the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about,
and the beloved city:
and fire came down from God out of heaven,
and devoured them.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

M't:25:41:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me,
ye cursed,
into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:

There is no Pit after that, there is no hell after that, yet your theory has the GWT event being more punishment when the book says the exact opposite:
Re:20:11-15:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead,
small and great,
stand before God;
and the books were opened:
and another book was opened,
which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Re:21:1-8:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city,
new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.

The Book of Life has the names of all created beings in it. Do the 1/3 of angels that are sent to their death have their names removed, (for the time they are in the lake) If you have trouble defining who is resurrected in the 'first resurrection' you will not be able to correctly identify who is covered by the 2nd resurrection.
If the Bible is so easy to understand, why do most Christians say the people called 'the rest' are punished for as long as fallen angels are?

1Co:15:23:
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Re:20:4-5:
And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

Here is another version that promotes the same thing, yet your faith is in a version that is 'selective', to say the very least.
Re:19:19-21:
And I saw the beast,
and the kings of the earth,
and their armies,
gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse,
and against his army.
And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Isa:65:12-19:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
for,
behold,
I create Jerusalem a rejoicing,
and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.

The 'servants' are in Jerusalem, this is New Jerusalem that is being referenced. If it is not the ones that were being punished building their homes outside the city then who is?

If you send a child to their room for 6 hours, is that 6 hours an 'eternity' for the child?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles is in disagreement with the plain and simple words of Jesus that punishment is eternal (Matthew 26:46).

Job:14:10-17:
But man dieth,
and wasteth away:
yea,
man giveth up the ghost,
and where is he?
As the waters fail from the sea,
and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
For now thou numberest my steps:
dost thou not watch over my sin?
My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

I also classify this as a hymn for obvious reasons, do you?

The Hooters - All You Zombies

 

[Clare73]

Job:14:10-17:
But man dieth,
and wasteth away:
yea,
man giveth up the ghost,
and where is he?
As the waters fail from the sea,
and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
For now thou numberest my steps:
dost thou not watch over my sin?
My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

I also classify this as a hymn for obvious reasons, do you?

OT revelation is incomplete. It must be understood in the light of NT revelation.
The OT is the NT concealed, the NT is th eOT revealed.

 

[Clare73]

M't:26:46:
Rise,
let us be going:
behold,
he is at hand that doth betray me.

Perhaps you were thinking of another verse.

Indeed, I was. . .Matthew 25:46. . .typo.

If any of the conclusions are in error, the whole theory is in error. Do you agree with that, or would you just go into some sort of 'damage mode', like ignoring the references entirely? Christ was the one talking with Abraham, who are the two unidentified 'ones' if it was not God and the Holy Spirit?
Is this an example of the Holy Spirit speaking when God and Christ are also identified as being there as well?
Re:4:5:
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices:

M't:25:46:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal.
and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne,
which are the seven Spirits of God.

At the beginning of the 1,000 years, the 'servants' are alive and living the Zec:14 prophecy. The people Jesus kills are sinners, they go to hell. Hell is a locked cage in a place called 'the Pit'. It is an escap[e-proof prison for immortal being that cannot be put in a sleep mode like mortal people do when they die and enter the grave. They sleep until woken up, believers are first and the missing children of Adam and Eve are the last ones to be woken up.
The Pit was open during the flood, holy angels put sinful Ge:6 sons of God there until their appointed.
Most things in the Bible have a beginning and an end. The gathered are alive for all the 1,000 years and the 'eternity' of the new earth.
Eternity in hell for people is from the return until God releases them from that place. There are no 'days off' during that time.

Prophecy:
Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also,
the seventh from Adam,
prophesied of these,
saying,
Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Historical event:
De:33:2:
And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Re:12:7-9:
And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out,
that old serpent,
called the Devil,
and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.
Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Re:20:7-10:
And when the thousand years are expired,
Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth,
Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle:
the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about,
and the beloved city:
and fire came down from God out of heaven,
and devoured them.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

M't:25:41:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me,
ye cursed,
into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:

There is no Pit after that, there is no hell after that, yet your theory has the GWT event being more punishment when the book says the exact opposite:
Re:20:11-15:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead,
small and great,
stand before God;
and the books were opened:
and another book was opened,
which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Re:21:1-8:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city,
new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.

The Book of Life has the names of all created beings in it. Do the 1/3 of angels that are sent to their death have their names removed, (for the time they are in the lake) If you have trouble defining who is resurrected in the 'first resurrection' you will not be able to correctly identify who is covered by the 2nd resurrection.
If the Bible is so easy to understand, why do most Christians say the people called 'the rest' are punished for as long as fallen angels are?

1Co:15:23:
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Re:20:4-5:
And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

Here is another version that promotes the same thing, yet your faith is in a version that is 'selective', to say the very least.
Re:19:19-21:
And I saw the beast,
and the kings of the earth,
and their armies,
gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse,
and against his army.
And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Isa:65:12-19:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
for,
behold,
I create Jerusalem a rejoicing,
and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.

The 'servants' are in Jerusalem, this is New Jerusalem that is being referenced. If it is not the ones that were being punished building their homes outside the city then who is?

If you send a child to their room for 6 hours, is that 6 hours an 'eternity' for the child?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

OT revelation is incomplete. It must be understood in the light of NT revelation.
The OT is the NT concealed, the NT is th eOT revealed.

Revelation is the index to all the end time prophecies.
Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Isa:56:9-12:
All ye beasts of the field,
come to devour,
yea,
all ye beasts in the forest.
His watchmen are blind:
they are all ignorant,
they are all dumb dogs,
they cannot bark;
sleeping,
lying down,
loving to slumber.
Yea,
they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,
and they are shepherds that cannot understand:
they all look to their own way,
every one for his gain,
from his quarter.
Come ye,
say they,
I will fetch wine,
and we will fill ourselves with strong drink;
and to morrow shall be as this day,
and much more abundant.
M't:24:27-30:
For as the lightning cometh out of the east,
and shineth even unto the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase is,
there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation doesn't add anything new, what is new is the information that fills in some of the 'blank parts' in OT prophecy.
Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Zec:13:8-9:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

OT revelation is incomplete. It must be understood in the light of NT revelation.
The OT is the NT concealed, the NT is th eOT revealed.

The bulk of the book is dedicated to covering events leading up to the completion of the bruise to Satan's head.
Read Ge:1-3 and Re:20-22 just to see if they mesh better than they should, considering the number of centuries that passed between when they were first published.
The 4 Gospels mesh and explain how the bruise to the heel of Eve was completed in full as soon as Jesus died and entered the grave.
The OT and NT have the fine details, Revelation has the right sequence (and timeline) for how prophecy unfolds.

 

[Clare73]

Revelation is the index to all the end time prophecies.

I don't take my doctrine from prophetic riddles (Number 12:8) which are subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being interpretation must not be in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching in order to not be incorrect, but which so much of it is.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you want to promote the text I'm reading is in error?
Re:22:18-19:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things,
God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life,
and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.

Should I adjust the book to say what I'm comfortable with?
How many 'born again' Christians think they are sin free because of grace? This verse would be 'problematic' without some magical meaning being applied.
Ro:5:19-21:
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered,
that the offence might abound.
But where sin abounded,
grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro:6:1-2:
What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin,
that grace may abound?
God forbid.
How shall we,
that are dead to sin,
live any longer therein?

Eph:2:8-9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works,
lest any man should boast.
Jas:2:14-17:
What doth it profit,
my brethren,
though a man say he hath faith,
and have not works?
can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked,
and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them,
Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled;
notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works,
is dead,
being alone.

Is this still just bad logic, or a rant against something you apparently assume that I teach? You don't seem to find it profitable to stick to one or the other. I pointed out your bad logic, where you say that [because we don't find it recorded that God told Adam, "...nor shall you touch it." it necessarily means he didn't tell Adam that], but you somehow have morphed that discussion into an attack on those who take grace for granted or something (I'm still not sure).

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Is this still just bad logic, or a rant against something you apparently assume that I teach?

Well Mark, to be quite truthful, it is you alone that has determined my opinions of what the Bible means is 'bad logic' in this case. That should be a blanket condition for what your opinion comes up with.
Did the rain that fell on high hills and mountain tops fall as snow, rather than rain, as it stayed in place for 150 days.
Is it also 'bad logic' to promote that Re:12 is an expansion on verse Ge:3:15? The 1st woman is Eve from Ge:3, the 2nd woman is Mary, the mother of Jesus, the last woman is Mary of Bethany, aka beloved Disciple of John the Baptist that is the author of the Gospel of John and the Revelation of John.
That theme should set your hair on fire as it puts a woman as being more important to Jesus than Peter, his best friend and Chief Apostle.

You don't seem to find it profitable to stick to one or the other.

At least I can be logical and rant with the best of the trolls on the net. Since I only use facts and not fantasy, who do you think wins most of the argumentative discussions?

I pointed out your bad logic,

I'm actually thinking that part may not have ever been noticed by you or your friends, this is the best argument you can make. Saying that Adam added it would mean you would have to agree with 'my logical conclusion' and that would kill your assessment that you are wise about the Bible and I cannot understand the clearest verse.
'Replenish the earth' means the angelic witnesses in Ge:1 would be leaving, and the megaliths they built would be left for the use of Adam and Eve's sinless children. Sin entered, so all the megaliths were 'taken apart'. That would be for the 'God the Scientist' thread.

where you say that [because we don't find it recorded that God told Adam, "...nor shall you touch it." it necessarily means he didn't tell Adam that],

Actually what I said was that it would mean Adam gave Eve that instruction.
'Would they have died if they touched it only' was my question that you missed replying to. This is not a one way street with you directing all the traffic.

but you somehow have morphed that discussion into an attack on those who take grace for granted or something (I'm still not sure).

Grace is a gift from God that covers many sins that a person misses repenting, things like what these reference:
M't:5:28:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Jas:2:10-11:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.

The above applies to thoughts if you are a Gentile, it is referencing the 10 Commandments only.

Christian have to repent sinful thoughts as well as sinful deeds. OT only believers have to repent nothing as their resurrection is based on their family tree:
Eze:37:11-17:
Then he said unto me,
Son of man,
these bones are the whole house of Israel:
behold,
they say,
Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost:
we are cut off for our parts.
Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves,
O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,
And shall put my spirit in you,
and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,
and performed it, saith the LORD.
The word of the LORD came again unto me,
saying,
Moreover,
thou son of man,
take thee one stick,
and write upon it,
For Judah,
and for the children of Israel his companions:
then take another stick,
and write upon it,
For Joseph,
the stick of Ephraim,
and for all the house of Israel his companions:
And join them one to another into one stick;
and they shall become one in thine hand.

This part is about the different emotions both groups experience, based on sinful thoughts being allowed or not. Feeding the poor and taking revenge or stealing something create completely different emotions. Jews feel the good emotions when helping others, that is other Jews as Gentiles are viewed as 'the land of the enemy'. God puts death as being the land of the enemy. That point is also lost so the meaning of OT prophecies is changed
Heb:8:7:
For if that first covenant had been faultless,
then should no place have been sought for the second.
Jer:31:31-33:
Behold,
the days come,
saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them,
saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days,
saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.

M't:2:16-18:
Then Herod,
when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men,
was exceeding wroth,
and sent forth,
and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem,
and in all the coasts thereof,
from two years old and under,
according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet,
saying,
In Rama was there a voice heard,
lamentation,
and weeping,
and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children,
and would not be comforted,
because they are not.
Jer:31:15-17:
Thus saith the LORD;
A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation,
and bitter weeping;
Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children,
because they were not.
Thus saith the LORD;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded,
saith the LORD;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
And there is hope in thine end,
saith the LORD,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.

The above is showing the Eze:37 resurrections are a literal event, the second covenant God makes with 'the whole House of Israel' is made with people like Jesus was when He was resurrected. That includes being able to appear in a room with a locked door and no windows. The mortal body God viewed as 'flawed' in Isaiah:53 was replaced by the one He had in the 40 days after His resurrection. It is the immortal body that will be walking to the living water and tree of life as defined in Eze:47. The 'house' is referencing the Temple Christ will build and then it is decorated by the people over the next 1,000 years.
Satan's last view is his capital city being melted like Sodom was will be replaced by what the city and land around it would have been like if sin had never entered the world. The Throne from the Re:4 Temple (represents the Holy Spirit from Ge:1:2), the water is from God in Ge:1:1.
The people alive at the end of the same day the two witnesses are resurrected are not given in marriage, they never have children.
During the 1,000 years, Israel plays the older brother who is in front of Jesus and the 24 Elders 24/7 minus the 30 days when the Gentile Church comes for a sinless version of Passover. Israel makes the red wine and the Church brings the ripe barley for the bread. What they are being shown is how a shepherd/flock relationship with 'strangers' is how immortal people can experience 'the joys of parenthood' without having actual children like the 100 each married couple in the flock will have.
These two group become a single group in the new earth. They can never fall into sin as they never leave the city. Children come to them when they are 120 years. When they eat from one tree, the other tree is also ready to be eaten from before the mortal person 'dies'. Repeat the same pattern for the next 40B years. Then the people in the city will be as wise as the angels in their perfected heaven in Hebrews:12, aka Mount Sion.

They are sinless immortals by the time all sinful immortals are in the fiery lake, they can enter new Jerusalem as soon as they get there. The rest of Adam and Eve's children enter after going through judgment by God. They are as innocent as the people alive at the end of day1 of the 1,000 years will be. The trip from heaven to the new earth means the people in the city first will have 2 days of wisdom about God to pass on when they first meet.
It will be like Adam explained to Eve how the garden came into being, Adam was the witness to the literal events because he was the first creation on day 6 in the garden, Eve only saw it through the stories her husband to her because she was the last creation on that day.