Does the Father have higher authority than the Son?

[RDKirk]

Trinity aside for moment, while a father exists, is a son ever a higher authority? Can a father grant equal authority to a son?

Well, yes, particularly from the point of view of the servants of the father.

But afterward he sent unto them his son, saying, "Surely they will give reverence to my son." -- Matthew 21

From the point of view of the servants of the father, there is no distinction between the son and the father, and yes, the father can grant all authority in dealing with the servants to his son.

That even happens in more mundane circumstances. When I was the "top" sergeant to a Marine colonel, there was a situation in which some of the troops were annoyed by some extra Saturday training I had assigned them. Our colonel had an "open door" policy, so they chose to use it to complain.

The colonel asked, "Do you understand what Top told you to do?"
They said, "Yes, but--"
"Then why are you talking to me?"

 

[ViaCrucis]

Then why did Jesus say that no man knows not even the Son but the Father only?

The Incarnation is a mystery that involves paradox. How can God, who cannot die, die on the cross? Because He was a man. Does that mean that only half of Jesus died, His human half? No, because Jesus isn't half God and half man, He is fully God and fully human. The fully God and fully human undivided Person of Jesus died, so God died. Scripture says that the Church was purchased with God's own blood (Acts of the Apostles 20:28). So how can Jesus, who is Eternal and Almighty God, consubstantial with the Father, co-equal in glory, power, dignity, eternity, etc. not know the time of His own return? How can the All-knowing Logos, God the Son, not know something? Such is one of the paradoxes of the mystery of the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wayne Gabler]

They would look like heresy according to what Jesus and the NT present, starting with John 1:1.

If you notice that in many places in the Bible, when a Prophet begins a delivery the first thing he does is identify whose sent him as that is also the author of the message, rather than the Prophet is.

Lu:3:1-6:
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,
Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea,
and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee,
and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis,
and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests,
the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
And he came into all the country about Jordan,
preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet,
saying,
The voice of one crying in the wilderness,
Prepare ye the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be brought low;
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Mal:3:1:
Behold,
I will send my messenger,
and he shall prepare the way before me:
and the Lord,
whom ye seek,
shall suddenly come to his temple,
even the messenger of the covenant,
whom ye delight in:
behold,
he shall come,
saith the LORD of hosts.

John is the witness in the verses below, when he mentions 'beginning' he is referencing Ge:1:1. When he mentions 'word' it is a reference to the voice in all of Ge:1. When God said some words, the Holy Spirit made the words real. During the return, the same Spirit will listen to what Jesus says as He pours out the 7 vials and make those words come real.
Joh:1:1-8:
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life;
and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness;
and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God,
whose name was John.
The same came for a witness,
to bear witness of the Light,
that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light,
but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Ge:1:3:
And God said,
Let there be light:
and there was light.
M't:17:5:
While he yet spake,
behold,
a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud,
which said,
This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased;
hear ye him.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Does the Father have higher authority than the Son?

I would say yes; GOD the Father has higher authority than Jesus; as this is confirmed several times by Jesus' words in the Gospel of John (John 4:34, John 5:30, John 6:38, John 14:31). GOD is also the God of Jesus (e.g. John 20:17).

The one who sends generally is higher in authority than the one being sent.

Also notice how NT writings always mention Jesus sitting at the right hand of GOD (the term 'Father' generally is not used).

Jesus is the way to the Father; so GOD the Father is the ultimate destination and authority.

1 Corinthians 15: 24, 28 show a similar pattern when Jesus hands over the kingdom to God the Father.

There are so many verses that require a forced interpretation when denying the authority structure between God the Father and Jesus as the Son of God, that for me the choice is fairly straightforward.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Does the Father have higher authority than the Son?

Just after saying that, He began giving instruction on how to prepare for it. By the end of the NT you should have a clear understanding of what will happen. That includes the 3 1/2 years prior to the day He resurrects the two witnesses, pours out all 7 vials of wrath and completed all the Re:20:4 resurrections.

1Th:5:1-6:
But of the times and the seasons,
brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say,
Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child;
and they shall not escape.
But ye,
brethren,
are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day:
we are not of the night,
nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep,
as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
Re:16:15-21:
Behold,
I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth,
and keepeth his garments,
lest he walk naked,
and they see his shame.
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven,
from the throne,
saying,
It is done.
And there were voices,
and thunders,
and lightnings;
and there was a great earthquake,
such as was not since men were upon the earth,
so mighty an earthquake,
and so great.
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And every island fled away,
and the mountains were not found.
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,
every stone about the weight of a talent:
and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail;
for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Welcome to day1 in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The sealing of certain people is the 1st real, the 'coals from heaven' represent the baptismal light that Saul experienced. It would seal the 144,000 and the two witnesses, as well as a limited number of 'repented Gentiles'. God may not reveal the date but He is not shy about telling people taht will happen as 'the bruise to Satan's head' is completed when a 3 1/2 year long prophecy begins to unfold:
Re:6:1-2:
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,
and I heard,
as it were the noise of thunder,
one of the four beasts saying,
Come and see.
And I saw,
and behold a white horse:
and he that sat on him had a bow;
and a crown was given unto him:
and he went forth conquering,
and to conquer.
Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me,
and made me a polished shaft;
in his quiver hath he hid me;
Re:8:3-6:
And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense,
that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
And the angel took the censer,
and filled it with fire of the altar,
and cast it into the earth:
and there were voices,
and thunderings,
and lightnings,
and an earthquake.
And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The human family in the Bible is a mirror of how things work in heaven.
What would your points look like if Adam and Eve and one of their children were the 3 beings involved?

Not to sound caustic, but what are you trying to say here? What difference does it make what is looks like if one substitutes A and E + 1? And no, the human family is not a mirror. It is a copy of sorts at best. The Trinity has no designated mother, btw.

 

[Clare73]

Not to sound caustic, but what are you trying to say here? What difference does it make what is looks like if one substitutes A and E + 1? And no, the human family is not a mirror. It is a copy of sorts at best. The Trinity has no designated mother, btw.

I still say it would look like heresy. . .

Welcome back!

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Not to sound caustic, but what are you trying to say here? What difference does it make what is looks like if one substitutes A and E + 1? And no, the human family is not a mirror. It is a copy of sorts at best. The Trinity has no designated mother, btw.

At its most basic level there are two entities in Ge:1, God (on true God) and the Holy Spirit:
Jer:10:10:
But the LORD is the true God,
he is the living God,
and an everlasting king:
at his wrath the earth shall tremble,
and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
M't:12:31:
Wherefore I say unto you,
All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Ge:1:26-27:
And God said,
Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle,
and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge:2:18:
And the LORD God said,
It is not good that the man should be alone;
I will make him an help meet for him.

If they were not created as a married couple, all their children were born in sin.
Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.
Ge:18:2:
And he lift up his eyes and looked,
and,
lo,
three men stood by him:
and when he saw them,
he ran to meet them from the tent door,
and bowed himself toward the ground,

God and the Holy Spirit teaching Christ how to melt Satan's Babylon.

Heb:7:1-4:
For this Melchisedec,
king of Salem,
priest of the most high God,
who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings,
and blessed him;
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;
first being by interpretation King of righteousness,
and after that also King of Salem,
which is,
King of peace;
Without father,
without mother,
without descent,
having neither beginning of days,
nor end of life;
but made like unto the Son of God;
abideth a priest continually.
Now consider how great this man was,
unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Proverb:8:22-36:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens,
I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.
M't:17:5:
While he yet spake,
behold,
a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud,
which said,
This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased;
hear ye him.

If the 1,000 year group is not given in marriage, where will the children in the new earth era come from? Are you willing to promote that when the 2/3 of the angels that did not sin and are taken toi a new heaven are never given in marriage.
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
1Co:15:27:
For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him,
it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I still say it would look like heresy. . .

Welcome back!

Really? Did Abraham have Christ as his High Priest or not? What else did the Bible get wrong?
Did Moses see God's face or not?
Ex:33:20-23:
And he said,
Thou canst not see my face:
for there shall no man see me,
and live.
And the LORD said,
Behold,
there is a place by me,
and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
And it shall come to pass,
while my glory passeth by,
that I will put thee in a clift of the rock,
and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
And I will take away mine hand,
and thou shalt see my back parts:
but my face shall not be seen.
Ge:18:1-2:
And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre:
and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
And he lift up his eyes and looked,
and,
lo,
three men stood by him:
and when he saw them,
he ran to meet them from the tent door,
and bowed himself toward the ground,

M't:26:39:
And he went a little further,
and fell on his face,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if it be possible,
let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will,
but as thou wilt.
M't:26:42:
He went away again the second time,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if this cup may not pass away from me,
except I drink it,
thy will be done.


Perhaps this is where you will find them:
De:4:26-28:
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day,
that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;
ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed.
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.
And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat,
nor smell.

Feel free top post your 'non-heretical' version of the references I have posted so far.

 

[Clare73]

Really? Did Abraham have Christ as his High Priest or not?
What else did the Bible get wrong?

I understood you to be implying that Adam and Eve + child were the divine Trinity revealed in the NT.

That is heresy.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

the divine Trinity revealed in the NT.

The references are which references exactly, when balanced with this reference of course:
Ge:1:27:
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.

Can I also assume you follow the pre-trib rapture doctrine?

If I can prove my theory better than you can yours, are you the heretic?

 

[Clare73]

I understood you to be implying that Adam and Eve + child were the divine Trinity revealed in the NT.

That is heresy.

The references are which references exactly,

I assume you are referring to references for the divine Trinity.
The following show the Trinity as the name for God.

1) Matthew 28:19 - this is the singular name (not names) of the God with whom we enter into relationship;

2) 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 - Paul uses all three names interchangeably;

3) 2 Corinthians 13:14; Revelation 1:4-5 - they are linked in prayer for and in pronouncement of divine blessing. (We pray only to God, divine blessing is only from God.)

when balanced with this reference of course:
Ge:1:27:
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.

Humanity does not equal divinity.
Adam did not equal God.
He was a living image of God, like the picture is an image of my husband, but it does not equal my husband.

Can I also assume you follow the pre-trib rapture doctrine?

I follow the NT apostolic teaching of the one and only resurrection, rapture and final judgment in the last day.

If I can prove my theory better than you can yours, are you the heretic?

Would you please explain your theory, I do not understand it.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Would you please explain your theory, I do not understand it.

Rather than throw out a lot of verses first, perhaps the summation would be more informative. The Bible shows progression for Adam and Eve. Adam was created at the beginning of day6 of creation, Eve was the last creation on that same day. The information God gave Adam made him 'older' than Eve. When Eve was talking with Satan in Ge:3 she mentioned that she should not even touch the fruit. That was an instruction from Adam that God never placed on Adam. The group from Adam to Abraham is the oldest group in the Bible. The 12 Tribes are next as they start with Abraham's son (Eze:37), the 3rd and final group is the Gentile Church as defined in Acts:10.
The 24 Elders in the Re:4 Temple are these people:
M't:27:52:
And the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
1Co:15:20:
But now is Christ risen from the dead,
and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Re:12:1:
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
a woman clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet,
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
M't:22:30:
For in the resurrection they neither marry,
nor are given in marriage,
but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Re:5:8-10:
And when he had taken the book,
the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,
having every one of them harps,
and golden vials full of odours,
which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred,
and tongue,
and people,
and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:
and we shall reign on the earth.

That 'reign' is basically passing on 2,000 years of wisdom they have gained since arriving there as spiritual beings in 30AD. They are in the same 'shepherd' role that 'Adam' was put in with Eve, by God creating them '1 day apart'.
Let's assume Eve died at the same time Adam did at the age of 930 years. During the time in the grave all connections to their past as mortal beings is removed. When resurrected, they are again two individual who are now the same age and 'single'. The whole population of earth for the 1,000 years is the same, immortals who are single. In the 1,000 years, the wisdom they gain from the teachings of the 24 Elders means God sees them is being sinless immortals, people who qualify to be taken from a melted earth to the location of the Great White Throne Judgment of 'the rest'. (Re:20:4 is for the 1,000-year reign, Re:20:5 determines who will live outside the city in the new earth era.
The older group becomes the shepherds of the younger group. They stay 1 day ahead in wisdom for the eternity the new earth lasts.
It is the younger group that will be given in marriage at the age of 20, 100 years later they have 100 children and God changes them from being eternal beings, like Adam and Eve, into immortal beings like the 'sons of God' in Ge:6.
The Flock is given the task of turning a universe that is as barren as this earth was at the end of day1 of creation.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Heb:12:22-26:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Whose voice then shook the earth:
but now he hath promised,
saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only,
but also heaven.

Mount Sion is the 3rd heaven, it is also the angel's promised new heaven. The 4 Beasts from Re:4 are also from that same place. They are also two married couples, one is the parents of God from Ge:1:1, the other couple are the parents of the Holy Spirit from Ge:1:2. That would make them the 'grandparents' of Christ. In the dating in Isaiah:65 it would be the equal of men being made immortal at the age of 120 years and being given the title of 'old man'.

Progression of sinless angels. After ascending to their promised heaven, they are considered to be sinless and holy. They can then be given in marriage, as the possibility of their child falling into sin and having to be sent to the lake is removed. Once they have a perfected child, they will speak something like Ge:1 into existence as an inheritance for that child. The sinless version unfolds, in Christ's case the sinful version played out. It was during the time of the Gospels that He fell in love with the Disciple of John the Baptist, aka Mary of Bethany.
The 1,000 years equally applies to Adam and Eve, Christ and Mary and you and your husband. Christ is perfected enough, Mary is not. When the new earth starts, the people that exit the city make a 'small group' as the rest of the earth is the courtyard for the city. Fast forward about 40B years and the courtyard is packed with people. It is that time the people in the city are holy enough to follow the angels in Mount Sion. When they ascend to that place, Mary is holy enough to be given in marriage to Christ and they will produce a child that is born perfected. Adam and Eve are holy enough that when 're-married' they will also have a child that is born perfected, so will you and your husband. Everybody given in marriage in that 3rd heaven will all create an inheritance for their child in the same way. As mankind begins moving to that perfected place, the place they 'vacate' is taken over by 'other flesh' until the progression is complete as all other flesh has those 4 beasts as 'their seeds contain their image and likeness' just as much as Adam and Eve are modeled after the appearance of God and the Holy Spirit as well as the relationship they have as a married couple.

The GWT and New Jerusalem are two building in a city that probably has no end, in time or area covered.
How much my version actually differs.
Loading Google Docs,
The Key.docx

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Out of curiosity, what is the fate of a heretic?
M't:10:12-16:
And when ye come into an house,
salute it.
And if the house be worthy,
let your peace come upon it:
but if it be not worthy,
let your peace return to you.
And whosoever shall not receive you,
nor hear your words,
when ye depart out of that house or city,
shake off the dust of your feet.
Verily I say unto you,
It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment,
than for that city.
Behold,
I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
be ye therefore wise as serpents,
and harmless as doves.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Does the Father have higher authority than the Son?

I believe scricture cites [many, many time] God the Father outranks God the Son.

They AREN'T human nor angels. They ARE of the same substances.

Before I'm falsely accused of being NON-trinitarian. Scripture proclaims: The Father, Son & Holy Spirit are ALL God.

Jesus is God: Isa 7:14 & 9:6, Micah 5:2, Matt 1:23, Jn 1:1 & 20:28, 1 Tim 3:16 Titus 2:13 Rom 9:5 Rev 1:8.

Holy Spirit (always capitalized showing deity) is God: Ps 139:7-8, Acts 5:3-4 & 13:2, Eph 4:30, 1 Cor 2:10-11, 12:4-7, 2 Cor 3:16 & 13:14

God the Son/Jesus the Christ, pre-existed prior to his incarnation & is our Gen 1, Creator/God: (Jn 1:3 & 10, Col 1:16 & 17, 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 3:9)

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

The Hebrew word Echad translates One. However, echad/one, means UNITY not SINGULARITY.

Another example of echad: Gen 2:24 echad speaks about the husband & wife being ONE flesh. Husband & wife aren't a singular being. They are in unity with each other.

There is another Hebrew word, YACHID, this word means ABSOLUTE SINGULARITY. Yachid is never used as a reference to God.

Spiritually One:

Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.
(MY NOTE: Spiritually-ONE)

Jn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
(MY NOTE: The Father IN Me & I IN Him = Spiritually-ONE)

Jn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(MY NOTE: I "in" the Father & the Father "in" Me = Spiritually-ONE)

Jn 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(MY NOTE: Again, Spiritually-ONE)

Jn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
(MY NOTE: All believers indwelt via the Holy Spirit, become ""ONE-spiritually"")

Jn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(MY NOTE: We all become ONE-spiritually. Father "in" the Son, Son "in" us)

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
(MY NOTE: Does one body of MANY = one person? NO! The millions/billions etc = ONE-Spiritual Body)

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
(MY NOTE: Christ is the head of the church: He is the savior of a large/numerous: Spiritual ""body of ONE"")

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(MY NOTE: The HEAD of Christ, is God the Father)

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(MY NOTE: The HEAD of Christ, is God the Father)

Scripture states 4 TIMES: "God the Father" said to "God the Son" Sit at my right hand.

Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Also see: Matt 22:44, Luk 20:42,

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(MY NOTE: The LORD isn't talking to HIMSELF!)

When Jesus prays to the Father: I don't believe He's praying to HIMSELF.

Jn 14:28 Jesus say's, the Father is greater then him.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
(MY NOTE: I don't believe Jesus is returning to HIMSELF?)

Heb 10:12 (C) after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(MY NOTE: This isn't the earthly Jesus. This is the risen/glorified Jesus & I don't believe He sits down next to HIMSELF!)

Rev 5:7 And he (VS 5 the Loin of the tribe of Juda, ve 6 the Lamb) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(MY NOTE: This isn't the earthly Jesus. This is the risen/glorified Lamb/Jesus. He doesn't take the book from His OWN HAND!)

Rom 8:17 We're children, "heirs also", "heirs of God & fellow heirs with Christ
(MY NOTE: Believers are fellow heirs of God the Father, with Christ. Christ isn't an heir to HIMSELF)

 

[Clare73]

Rather than throw out a lot of verses first, perhaps the summation would be more informative. The Bible shows progression for Adam and Eve. Adam was created at the beginning of day6 of creation, Eve was the last creation on that same day. The information God gave Adam made him 'older' than Eve. When Eve was talking with Satan in Ge:3 she mentioned that she should not even touch the fruit. That was an instruction from Adam that God never placed on Adam. The group from Adam to Abraham is the oldest group in the Bible. The 12 Tribes are next as they start with Abraham's son (Eze:37), the 3rd and final group is the Gentile Church as defined in Acts:10.
The 24 Elders in the Re:4 Temple are these people:
M't:27:52:
And the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
1Co:15:20:
But now is Christ risen from the dead,
and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Re:12:1:
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
a woman clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet,
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
M't:22:30:
For in the resurrection they neither marry,
nor are given in marriage,
but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Re:5:8-10:
And when he had taken the book,
the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,
having every one of them harps,
and golden vials full of odours,
which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred,
and tongue,
and people,
and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:
and we shall reign on the earth.

That 'reign' is basically passing on 2,000 years of wisdom they have gained since arriving there as spiritual beings in 30AD. They are in the same 'shepherd' role that 'Adam' was put in with Eve, by God creating them '1 day apart'.
Let's assume Eve died at the same time Adam did at the age of 930 years. During the time in the grave all connections to their past as mortal beings is removed. When resurrected, they are again two individual who are now the same age and 'single'. The whole population of earth for the 1,000 years is the same, immortals who are single. In the 1,000 years, the wisdom they gain from the teachings of the 24 Elders means God sees them is being sinless immortals, people who qualify to be taken from a melted earth to the location of the Great White Throne Judgment of 'the rest'. (Re:20:4 is for the 1,000-year reign, Re:20:5 determines who will live outside the city in the new earth era.
The older group becomes the shepherds of the younger group. They stay 1 day ahead in wisdom for the eternity the new earth lasts.
It is the younger group that will be given in marriage at the age of 20, 100 years later they have 100 children and God changes them from being eternal beings, like Adam and Eve, into immortal beings like the 'sons of God' in Ge:6.
The Flock is given the task of turning a universe that is as barren as this earth was at the end of day1 of creation.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Heb:12:22-26:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Whose voice then shook the earth:
but now he hath promised,
saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only,
but also heaven.

Mount Sion is the 3rd heaven, it is also the angel's promised new heaven. The 4 Beasts from Re:4 are also from that same place. They are also two married couples, one is the parents of God from Ge:1:1, the other couple are the parents of the Holy Spirit from Ge:1:2. That would make them the 'grandparents' of Christ. In the dating in Isaiah:65 it would be the equal of men being made immortal at the age of 120 years and being given the title of 'old man'.

Progression of sinless angels. After ascending to their promised heaven, they are considered to be sinless and holy. They can then be given in marriage, as the possibility of their child falling into sin and having to be sent to the lake is removed. Once they have a perfected child, they will speak something like Ge:1 into existence as an inheritance for that child. The sinless version unfolds, in Christ's case the sinful version played out. It was during the time of the Gospels that He fell in love with the Disciple of John the Baptist, aka Mary of Bethany.
The 1,000 years equally applies to Adam and Eve, Christ and Mary and you and your husband. Christ is perfected enough, Mary is not. When the new earth starts, the people that exit the city make a 'small group' as the rest of the earth is the courtyard for the city. Fast forward about 40B years and the courtyard is packed with people. It is that time the people in the city are holy enough to follow the angels in Mount Sion. When they ascend to that place, Mary is holy enough to be given in marriage to Christ and they will produce a child that is born perfected. Adam and Eve are holy enough that when 're-married' they will also have a child that is born perfected, so will you and your husband. Everybody given in marriage in that 3rd heaven will all create an inheritance for their child in the same way. As mankind begins moving to that perfected place, the place they 'vacate' is taken over by 'other flesh' until the progression is complete as all other flesh has those 4 beasts as 'their seeds contain their image and likeness' just as much as Adam and Eve are modeled after the appearance of God and the Holy Spirit as well as the relationship they have as a married couple.

The GWT and New Jerusalem are two building in a city that probably has no end, in time or area covered.
How much my version actually differs.
Loading Google Docs,
The Key.docx

Thanks.

So your theory is personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8), which are subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being those interpretations must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching if they are not to be incorrect.

Do your interpretations pass that muster?

 

[Clare73]

Out of curiosity, what is the fate of a heretic?
M't:10:12-16:
And when ye come into an house,
salute it.
And if the house be worthy,
let your peace come upon it:
but if it be not worthy,
let your peace return to you.
And whosoever shall not receive you,
nor hear your words,
when ye depart out of that house or city,
shake off the dust of your feet.
Verily I say unto you,
It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment,
than for that city.
Behold,
I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
be ye therefore wise as serpents,
and harmless as doves.

That's about unbelief. . .heresy is different.

 

[LayHong_Loves_Christ]

Jesus is now in heaven, he must know his time of second coming.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Thanks.
So your theory is personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8), which are subject to more than one interpretation,

There are lots of false doctrines and one single accurate version.
1Tm:1:10:
For whoremongers,
for them that defile themselves with mankind,
for menstealers,
for liars,
for perjured persons,
and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

2Tm:4:3:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears;

You should be able to supply an answer to the question I will be supplying an answer to:
1Th:5:1-6:
But of the times and the seasons,
brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say,
Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child;
and they shall not escape.
But ye,
brethren,
are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day:
we are not of the night,
nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep,
as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.

The party when the two witnesses are in the grave:
Re:11:7-15:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them,
and kill them.
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them,
and make merry,
and shall send gifts one to another;
because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Re:16:1-2:
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels,
Go your ways,
and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast,
and upon them which worshipped his image.
.
.
Re:16:15-21:
Behold,
I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth,
and keepeth his garments,
lest he walk naked,
and they see his shame.
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven,
from the throne,
saying,
It is done.
And there were voices,
and thunders,
and lightnings;
and there was a great earthquake,
such as was not since men were upon the earth,
so mighty an earthquake,
and so great.
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And every island fled away,
and the mountains were not found.
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,
every stone about the weight of a talent:
and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail;
for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The 1st day of the 1,000 years is the day the two witnesses are resurrected.

the only rule being those interpretations must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching if they are not to be incorrect.

I'm going to assume they are in that long list of references another poster left. Under your theory the Gentiles in Acts:10 were not saved as their only confession would have been they believed the doubting Thomas story was a real event. Further along is Matt:25 and the dividing of the sheep/goats using the same 7 vials. People feeding the poor, and confessing the story was true, will be resurrected to life if they are not alive before the vials are poured out.
Your sect seems to have added so many other items, it would be a wonder if anyone is resurrected as a Christian at all. The 7 letters have 14 different relations a person can have with God, 7 are good enough you will survive the vials, 7 are lacking qualities, they are resurrected 1,000 years later. I would belong to the hot/cold Church based on my path to God so far. I doubt there are many Christians who even know they are part of one of those Churches, as this verse covers everyone alive when the trumps start sounding.

Do your interpretations pass that muster?

That and more if I can give you the 'big picture' that I just did. You have read a bit of what I have to say about a few topics related to the Bible. Since I do all my own writing, the past 30 years was not wasted time.
I'm not out to convert anyone, my long explanations are to show by doctrine is based on many long passages rather than a single verse and pages explaining why the Bible's plain meaning is far from the truth.

Do you pass the test that you are more of an expert about the Bible than I am?

The little I know about you so far involves 'the trinity, the pre-trib rapture, and by extension the 7 year trib should also be part of what you believe. That is based on the 70th week of Daniel:9 being split off and mover from the past to the future. There are a few 'flaws' with the way the references are used. Rome is in the brass kingdom rather than in the iron/clay one:
Loading Google Docs, The Brass Kingdom with Rome included.docx

Is there a rapture thread as my post about that topic is a few pages long?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Jesus is now in heaven, he must know his time of second coming.

We don't know the day, but the return is the biggest topic in the Bible, there is no shortage of references that should be considered before any conclusions are drawn. Covering the 24 references to the term, 'day of the Lord' ended up being about 40 pages long when examine in as much detail as I could. When you add in all the other references, it is quite easy to show the sealing of certain people is the 1st event.
Re:6:1-2:
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,
and I heard,
as it were the noise of thunder,
one of the four beasts saying,
Come and see.
And I saw,
and behold a white horse:
and he that sat on him had a bow;
and a crown was given unto him:
and he went forth conquering,
and to conquer.
Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me,
and made me a polished shaft;
in his quiver hath he hid me;
Re:8:2-6:
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God;
and to them were given seven trumpets.
And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense,
that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
And the angel took the censer,
and filled it with fire of the altar,
and cast it into the earth:
and there were voices,
and thunderings,
and lightnings,
and an earthquake.
And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

4 days for the 1st four trumps, 3 1/2 years after the 5th trump sounds, 3 1/2 hours to pour out all 7 vials starting 1 hour after the two witnesses are resurrected, by 6PM of that same day the Re:20:4 resurrection will have taken place. All people will be 'spiritual beings' like Jesus was:
Joh:20:17:
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.

Zec:13:8-9:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.
Zec:14:1-8:
Behold,
the day of the LORD cometh,
and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
and the city shall be taken,
and the houses rifled,
and the women ravished;
and half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth,
and fight against those nations,
as when he fought in the day of battle.
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east,
and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley;
and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains;
for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal:
yea,
ye shall flee,
like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:
and the LORD my God shall come,
and all the saints with thee.
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the light shall not be clear,
nor dark:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.
And it shall be in that day,
that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea,
and half of them toward the hinder sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be.
Eze:47:1-2:
Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house;
and,
behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward:
for the forefront of the house stood toward the east,
and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house,
at the south side of the altar.
Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward,
and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward;
and,
behold,
there ran out waters on the right side.
.
.
Eze:47:7-9:
Now when I had returned,
behold,
at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
Then said he unto me,
These waters issue out toward the east country,
and go down into the desert,
and go into the sea:
which being brought forth into the sea,
the waters shall be healed.
And it shall come to pass,
that every thing that liveth,
which moveth,
whithersoever the rivers shall come,
shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish,
because these waters shall come thither:
for they shall be healed;
and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
.
.
Eze:47:12:
And by the river upon the bank thereof,
on this side and on that side,
shall grow all trees for meat,
whose leaf shall not fade,
neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed:
it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months,
because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary:
and the fruit thereof shall be for meat,
and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Joh:7:39:
(But this spake he of the Spirit,
which they that believe on him should receive:
for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;
because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

God took Jesus to New Jerusalem after He said that and had Him back in Jerusalem by 6PM to baptize 11 people in a small room. In those 40 days He was back He was in an immortal body, like all people who have entered the grave and returned from it will also be glorified in the same way. Re:21 is for the ones saved in the final verses from Re:20.