Does the entire story of the Bible prove predermination of Salvation?

[Brother-Mike]

6. If creation had an actual beginning, then God has a beginning.

If God's will is identical with His being, then creation (the execution of His will) must exist out of necessity of God's being. If this is the case, then the Triune work in redemption exists out of necessity too.

You can't choose your point 6 above and my point 1 (God's eternality) at the same time. Which one is false? Or do you choose to retract/rewrite either point?

 

[YahuahSaves]

6. If creation had an actual beginning, then God has a beginning.

Creation as in the physical had a beginning.
God is eternal.
When talking about the spiritual, then things are unclear. (Scripturally)

 

[Jonaitis]

You can't choose your point 6 above and my point 1 (God's eternality) at the same time. Which one is false? Or do you choose to retract/rewrite either point?

Nope. I agree that God is eternal, but if God is eternal, then creation has always emanated from God.

 

[Jonaitis]

Creation as in the physical had a beginning.
God is eternal.
When talking about the spiritual, then things are unclear. (Scriptually)

If God's will is identical with His being, then the execution of His will (creation) is the necessary result of His being.

 

[Brother-Mike]

Nope. I agree that God is eternal, but if God is eternal, then creation has always emanated from God.

However you define "emanated", you disagree with "Creation had a physical beginning and will eventually "cease to exist"?

Attempting to head you off at the pass, if you disagree with "Creation had a physical beginning" then are you proposing that Creation was, like God, physically eternal? And if yes to that then when/how Genesis 1?

 

[Jonaitis]

However you define "emanated", you disagree with "Creation had a physical beginning and will eventually "cease to exist"?

Attempting to head you off at the pass, if you disagree with "Creation had a physical beginning" then are you proposing that Creation was, like God, physically eternal? And if yes to that then when/how Genesis 1?

Creation is only eternal in relation to who God is, but in itself, it is not eternal. It has its beginning in God, who has no beginning.

The Sun will shine as the necessity of its being, but the Sun does not depend on the shinning to be.
God creates as the necessity of His being, but God does not depend on creation to be.

 

[Brother-Mike]

Creation is only eternal in relation to who God is, but in itself, it is not eternal. It has its beginning in God, who has no beginning.

The Sun will shine as the necessity of its being, but the Sun does not depend on the shinning to be.

So you agree with "Creation had a physical beginning and will eventually "cease to exist"?

<-- interrogation scene

 

[Jonaitis]

So you agree with "Creation had a physical beginning and will eventually "cease to exist"?

This assumes that God's decree has an end. Do you believe that?

 

[Brother-Mike]

This assumes that God's decree has an end. Do you believe that?

Honestly I don't know. My guess based on scripture is that NHNE is eternal in a "starting at Judgement and going forever forward" and we experience it in time. God would presumably be simultaneously in time with us (as he is now) as well as eternally outside time. But neither variation breaks any of my points earlier.

 

[Brother-Mike]

This assumes that God's decree has an end. Do you believe that?

i.e. God may well still be in "decree mode" at NHNE, still having decreed forward eternity that is. I don't recall any scripture suggesting that he ever takes his hand off the wheel.

 

[Jonaitis]

Honestly I don't know. My guess based on scripture is that NHNE is eternal in a "starting at Judgement and going forever forward" and we experience it in time. God would presumably be simultaneously in time with us (as he is now) as well as eternally outside time. But neither variation breaks any of my points earlier.

Well, my point is that if God's decree is eternal, then creation, which is the physical manifestation of His decree, is eternal in so far as it is part of that eternal decree. You cannot separate creation from the decree, and you cannot separate the decree from His being. Creation exists out of necessity of God's existence, but not the other way around.

 

[YahuahSaves]

If God's will is identical with His being, then the execution of His will (creation) is the necessary result of His being.

As Paul wrote:
"In him we live and move and have our being".
Like I said, it's probably too controversial for this thread, considering the topic is centred around salvation.

 

[Jonaitis]

As Paul wrote:
"In him we live and move and have our being".
Like I said, it's probably too controversial for this thread, considering the topic is centred around salvation.

Yes, we should respect the topic of this thread. @Brother-Mike, you're free to discuss this elsewhere if you want.

 

[Brother-Mike]

Well, my point is that if God's decree is eternal, then creation, which is the physical manifestation of His decree, is eternal in so far as it is part of that eternal decree. You cannot separate creation from the decree, and you cannot separate the decree from His being. Creation exists out of necessity of God's existence, but not the other way around.

Fair enough... then I would wonder when "God created the heavens and the earth"? Eternally? Why then describe Creation as an event instead of saying something like "The Heavens and Earth always existed"? Why state the nature of Creation as the diametric opposite of what actually happened?

 

[atpollard]

I believe God decreed all things before the world was.

Not to start an argument, but just to start a friendly conversation on something that makes my head hurt if I try to completely understand it, but ...

What exactly do you mean when you say "God decreed"?

("All things" is something that I can understand ... it is the exact nature of "decreed" that I struggle with.)

 

[Brother-Mike]

Not to start an argument, but just to start a friendly conversation on something that makes my head hurt if I try to completely understand it, but ...

What exactly do you mean when you say "God decreed"?

("All things" is something that I can understand ... it is the exact nature of "decreed" that I struggle with.)

At the request of an earlier poster I’ve created a separate thread to discuss this topic so as not to stray too far from the original intent of this thread

 

[Lost Witness]

then God has a beginning.

GOD is Eternal, Period.
Elsewise is contrary to scripture which we know is Truth.

 

[Sheila Davis]

My personal belief is Man was created to house the spirits that are under judgment. All of mankind is under judgment. To give all the fallen spirits except Lucifer and the angels held in chains of darkness a chance to repent.

Giving just enough information of the heavens and teachings to any who will hear what is right and what is wrong and the ability for each individual to choose.
The Bible in the New testament indicates that some are predestined to receive salvation / redemption. Even Jesus said he will not lose any that our father has given him. Scripture also indicates others are to choose him and his salvation.

 

[Sheila Davis]

Where did this belief start ? Is it anywhere in the Creator's Word and Plan as He Reveals in Jesus ?

I said it was my personal belief.

I believe the soul and the spirit intertwines with each / the same and are eternal. And only God can destroy the spirit/soul. Scripture teaches the spirit returns to God who gave it and the body returns to the dust of the Earth.

Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?

The Bible teaches that humans are made up of both body and spirit. Life begins when the two are united, and life ends when the two are separated. Death Of The

www.blueletterbible.org

Jesus makes the statement that the everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels Matthew 25: 41-46 ...... Are angels spiritual beings who can take on physical form? ........ Revelation 20:15 tells us that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire (which is the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels)

All of mankind is under judgment John 12:31 & 16:7-11 __ verse 11 tells us that the prince of this world is judged.
Jude verse 6 tells us the Angels who kept not their first estate are held in chains of darkness until judgment. (they are not the ones who were "cast" down to earth with Satan _ scripture clearly states they "kept not" their first estate).
There are continuing discussions on who the angelic beings are in Jude 6.

 

[YahuahSaves]

In you op , and I think other posts, you show belief in the Bible as the Bible is Truth, the Bible is God's Word, and God cannot lie as God is not a man.

What's your point?