Does the entire story of the Bible prove predermination of Salvation?

[Jonaitis]

I believe at the core of many of your points is the belief that God and Creation are a duality, two-sides of the same coin. To me they are a parent-child relationship (or better, a Creator-Created relationship). God is eternal, and does not need the Creation to be. But the Creation does indeed need the Creator. My female cat Lady Angelina doesn't need to have kittens, but when she does then they have a need for Lady Angelina.

I don't disagree. When I said two sides of a coin, I refer more to the fact that one exists because of the other, rather than both dependent on each other. A poor analogy at best. Creation exists by necessity of God's decree, not absolutely speaking. I think that's where the disconnect is in our conversation.

Let's put it this way: If God decreed all things in eternity past, and yet nothing was in eternity past beside God, then God's decree must be then intrinsic to God (ad intra). We would properly say that God's decree, before creation, was God Himself, being "simple". If that was so, then everything that would occur to happen must be happening necessarily according to the intrinsic nature of God. We are by necessity of God's being. I'm sure I am doing a poor job at explaining this.

How do you define "exists" here. Physical? As a plan eternally known by God but not yet begun?

If God does not possess love, but is love, then God does not possess decree, but is decree. We are the manifestation of God's necessary decree, making our existence a necessary consequence. By "exist" I mean being.

I myself don't see how a scriptural takeaway from the Bible is that God is unchanging. He is a whirlwind. He fashioned and executed the entire redemptive arc of history. These are temporal events requiring action by God. When did "unchangeable" become "can not act"?

You just agreed with me right there. You affirm that God is unchanging, but acting in creation. His action is identical with His decree, and if His decree is identical with Himself, then God's actions are the necessary outflow of His being. We exist by necessity of God's existence, because His existence is the decree of this world. If He acts in creation, it comes from necessity of His decree which is identical with His being. Don't you see, you are agreeing with me without realizing it? We exist as a necessary consequence of who God is...

 

[atpollard]

Considering all the stories in the bible concerning disobedience, sin and God's wrath, do you think it really comes down to human choice?

No. I think it comes down to the progressive revelation of just how deep and wide and high the Love of God really is. What would God do to have fellowship with a people that He would call “His Children”?

 

[YahuahSaves]

Hebrews 1:3 "He upholds the universe by the word of His power..."

The whole existence is supported by God, and depends entirely on God to be. I am of the opinion, however, that if God has always been, then creation (whether ordered or chaotic) has always been supported by God. This is my difference in the use of primordial and eternal. Creation has existed in the beginning, but for how long we know not, but with God, there is no beginning, because He is timeless.

It is similar to Eternal Generation of the Son: He was eternally begotten, but there was not a time when He wasn't the Son. So too, creation has been eternally created by God, but there was not a time when it wasn't. He is a forever masterpiece by a timeless God.

So how do you figure that before God started creating there was anything else but God himself?

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth,
or ever you had formed the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

 

[Jonaitis]

So how do you figure that before God started creating there was anything else but God himself?

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth,
or ever you had formed the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

My argument can be summarized in the following words:

If God's actions are the necessary outflow of His decree, then God's creation is the necessary outflow of His being.

Just as light emanates from its source, creation issues from God. This does not mean that the Sun is dependent on its light, but that its light is the necessary consequence of the Sun. The Sun shines - that a necessary consequence of the Sun's existence, even though the Sun does not depend on its shinning to be.

I don't know where you stand on divine predestination, but if you hold that all things come about as the necessary consequences of God's decree, then you are also affirming that we exist by necessity of who God is. His decree is His will, His will is identical with His being, thus creation must exist if God exists. It still implies dependency on God, but necessity as a consequence of God. He is the Sun, and we are the light that emanates as a consequence of what the Sun is. The Sun and its light are always together, but not the same.

 

[Lost Witness]

No. I think it comes down to the progressive revelation of just how deep and wide and high the Love of God really is. What would God do to have fellowship with a people that He would call “His Children”?

Psalms 8:3-6

 

[YahuahSaves]

I don't know where you stand on divine predestination,

I'm not really sure where you stand on it?

I believe God existed independently before creation. But creation was made through him and for him. Through him, meaning creation cannot exist independently from God (we can pretend to ourselves that we do but that's irrelevant).

 

[Jonaitis]

I'm not really sure where you stand on it?

I believe God existed independently before creation. But creation was made through him and for him. Through him, meaning creation cannot exist independently from God (we can pretend to ourselves that we do but that's irrelevant).

I agree, and I am realizing that I am getting nowhere in this discussion.

I believe God decreed all things before the world was.

 

[Lost Witness]

My argument can be summarized in the following words:

Just as light emanates from its source, creation issues from God. This does not mean that the Sun is dependent on its light, but that its light is the necessary consequence of the Sun. The Sun shines - that a necessary consequence of the Sun's existence, even though the Sun does not depend on its shinning to be.

I don't know where you stand on divine predestination, but if you hold that all things come about as the necessary consequences of God's decree, then you are also affirming that we exist by necessity of who God is. His decree is His will, His will is identical with His being, thus creation must exist if God exists. It still implies dependency on God, but necessity as a consequence of God. He is the Sun, and we are the light that emanates as a consequence of what the Sun is. The Sun and its light are always together, but not the same.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
^^^
Creation

 

[Jonaitis]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
^^^
Creation

I agree.

 

[Lost Witness]

I agree, and I am realizing that I am getting nowhere in this discussion.

I believe God decreed all things before the world was.

GOD had his plan before creation.
I believe that as well

 

[Jonaitis]

GOD had his plan before creation.
I believe that as well

I agree.

 

[Jonaitis]

GOD had his plan before creation.
I believe that as well

If God planned before creation, then creation exists out of necessity of that plan. Agree or disagree?

 

[Lost Witness]

The reason why i believe that is because of one verse,
For many are called, but few are chosen.
That Doesn't mean one mustn't try to Finish the Race.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I agree, and I am realizing that I am getting nowhere in this discussion.

I believe God decreed all things before the world was.

OK it didn't appear that way in reading what you wrote, that's all. I apologise for misunderstanding

 

[YahuahSaves]

If God planned before creation, then creation exists out of necessity of that plan. Agree or disagree?

OK we are talking about the idea before the action?

In that sense, I agree. It's like the scripture says: Gods word doesn't return void.

 

[Jonaitis]

OK we are talking about the idea before the action?

In that sense, I agree.

In my discussion with brother Mike, I was pointing out that if we believe God's decree is in God, then God's actions are the necessary consequences of God's being. This means that creation exists out of necessity because God exists. His very nature predetermines creation to exist, just as light is predetermined by its source to exist. We exist by necessity of who God is. If that is the case, then God and creation have always been together. When Scripture speaks of "before," that is only for language sake. We do not know of a beginning, because God does not have a beginning. As long as the source exists, light must follow.

So this is not only the only possible world, but is also the only necessary world.

 

[YahuahSaves]

In my discussion with brother Mike, I was pointing out that if we believe God's decree is in God, then God's actions are the necessary consequences of God's being. This means that creation exists out of necessity because God exists. His very nature predetermines creation to exist, just as light is predetermined by its source to exist. We exist by necessity of who God is. If that is the case, then God and creation have always been together. When Scripture speaks of "before," that is only for language sake. We do not know of a beginning, because God does not have a beginning. As long as the source exists, light must follow.

So this is not only the only possible world, but is also the only necessary world.

I want to discuss this further but it may veer off the OP and it may lead into controversial territory because I think I understand what you're talking about, for which I have experienced but cannot at this time mention on this forum without proper study and knowledge of the bible.

 

[Jonaitis]

I want to discuss this further but it may veer off the OP and it may lead into controversial territory because I think I understand what you're talking about, for which I have experienced but cannot at this time mention on this forum without proper study and knowledge of the bible.

I understand, but in connection to the OP, redemptive history is the visible manifestation of God's heart. If God did not predetermine the redemption of man, then God is shooting in the dark in a world that is not His own.

 

[Brother-Mike]

You just agreed with me right there. You affirm that God is unchanging, but acting in creation. His action is identical with His decree, and if His decree is identical with Himself, then God's actions are the necessary outflow of His being. We exist by necessity of God's existence, because His existence is the decree of this world. If He acts in creation, it comes from necessity of His decree which is identical with His being. Don't you see, you are agreeing with me without realizing it? We exist as a necessary consequence of who God is...

Thanks for the reply brother... I have no question marks regarding above, and maybe more importantly I don't feel that any of what we're talking about actually tractions in to our salvation either way. So, with that in mind, maybe my position would make more sense if I stated a set of claims which I believe there is scriptural support for, and am always curious and grateful to hear how you differ and/or if you believe any are incorrect:

1. God is eternal. 99% confidence. (Confidence in this case being my own assessment of how scripturally supported/defensible this is. I reserve 100% confidence for God-mind )
2. God planned all aspects of Creation. 99% confidence.
3. The Triune God, as loving act of storytelling between the Father, Son and Spirit, planned all aspects of Creation. 50% confidence but it sounds about right to me, or is so theoretical that at least wouldn't seem to have any bearing on Christian living at least.
4. God manifested/carried out Creation, and fully sustains it. 99% confidence.
5. All aspects of Creation are completely dependent on God. 99% confidence.
6. Creation had a physical beginning and will eventually "cease to exist". 99% confidence.
7. When the show's over we'll spend eternity in communion with God in NHNE. 99% confidence.

Do you disagree with any of the points that I have 99% confidence in? If not then I'm happy to agree with any definition you hold regarding "unchangeability" or divine simplicity

 

[Jonaitis]

Thanks for the reply brother... I have no question marks regarding above, and maybe more importantly I don't feel that any of what we're talking about actually tractions in to our salvation either way. So, with that in mind, maybe my position would make more sense if I stated a set of claims which I believe there is scriptural support for, and am always curious and grateful to hear how you differ and/or if you believe any are incorrect:

1. God is eternal. 99% confidence. (Confidence in this case being my own assessment of how scripturally supported/defensible this is. I reserve 100% confidence for God-mind )
2. God planned all aspects of Creation. 99% confidence.
3. The Triune God, as loving act of storytelling between the Father, Son and Spirit, planned all aspects of Creation. 50% confidence but it sounds about right to me, or is so theoretical that at least wouldn't seem to have any bearing on Christian living at least.
4. God manifested/carried out Creation, and fully sustains it. 99% confidence.
5. All aspects of Creation are completely dependent on God. 99% confidence.
6. Creation had a physical beginning and will eventually "cease to exist". 99% confidence.
7. When the show's over we'll spend eternity in communion with God in NHNE. 99% confidence.

Do you disagree with any of the points that I have 99% confidence in? If not then I'm happy to approve any definition you hold regarding "unchangeability" or divine simplicity

6. If creation had an actual beginning, then God has a beginning.

If God's will is identical with His being, then creation (the execution of His will) must exist out of necessity of God's being. If this is the case, then the Triune work in redemption exists out of necessity too. God's being necessarily implies a creation and a redemption as the consequence of who He is. You cannot separate creation from the Creator, even though the Creator does not require creation to be.