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come on...what is listed as the basic/elementary teachings they were suppose to move on from? You changed your mind about them being Jewish traditions, now go the next step and discover what the text says they are....you can do it, I have faith that you can.in other words, in 5-6 it was about leaving both, obviously they were t leave Judaism, but also the other elementals were seen as the basic stuff, that they were called to go on from, it is twofold.
The record shows we are righteous with the righteousness of Christ. I don't think there is such a thing as more or less righteous. That being said, we can tarnish that righteousness, or maybe another way to say it is to charge another sin to our account which is why scripture tells us to many times to confess and repent of our sins. Even after we come to Christ and our record is cleared, we can sin and sometimes do sin which leaves our account in debt. Cleansing it is as simple as confessing and repenting, but it needs done if we are to take scripture at it's word. The problem is that like some here, many think that it is not necessary to turn from any sins that creep into our life after we come to the saving knowledge of Christ.Reading all this back and forth has been interesting. Begs a few questions for me though: can we be anymore righteous than we already are (the God-kind, as imputed by him, not the self-righteous kind)? And therefore, can our actions or behavior make us more righteous?
get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.and just for the record folks, the two words here could be temple references, as per judaism, again it is twofold. They layed hands on the lambs, and washings in the plural, would be more than baptism, as we know it, there were temple washings, no big deal, just bringing that out.
They had to leave legalistic Judaism, and that is the thrust of the book.
6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
The reason that it is an inner work is because it goes against the nature that we have to deal with while we are on this earth. Peter advises to add to our discipline gentleness, kindness, longsuffering, tolerance, brotherly love because it is not a natural occurance and it takes daily stopping, starting, picking up the cross and following Him.Yes, amen, and works are wonderful, and if we think about it, should they be called works of obedience, or just doing what comes natural? If one has to be obedient to do a task, it may indicate that one does not really want to do it. If one just does it, great, but if everything is so obedience orientated, it makes me wonder. Some people are so caught up with living obediently, I think there dogmatism may indicate something. I say may indicate, maybe, maybe not, but quite possibly it does.
It is as though they are arguing with themselves, when they keep telling everyone, how they, the other people must be obedient. The naturally obedient ones are thinking.."well...ummmm..yeah, ok, fine no big deal, where is the argument?"
The argument might just be in the soul of the obedience people, they may be arguing with themselves, convincing themselves. Maybe...I say maybe...
come on...what is listed as the basic/elementary teachings they were suppose to move on from? You changed your mind about them being Jewish traditions, now go the next step and discover what the text says they are....you can do it, I have faith that you can.
Thats why Paul says to pray without ceasingStephanie says, You cannot live in both natures simultaneously. IF you live in the new nature consistently, the old nature is dead. So, yes, we CAN "just live and breathe in the new nature". For, IF we are in the new nature, the cross has already killed the old nature.
Notice the word consistently, then the words can and if bolded.
That's saying the same as stay obedient, so what's the problem with staying obedient?
Any friend will get along with another friend. Not go contrary to them.
get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.
The reason that it is an inner work is because it goes against the nature that we have to deal with while we are on this earth. Peter advises to add to our discipline gentleness, kindness, longsuffering, tolerance, brotherly love because it is not a natural occurance and it takes daily stopping, starting, picking up the cross and following Him.
Yes they probably do have to argue with themselves until they can submit to the commands of Christ until the discipline produces a disciple of Christ.
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Originally Posted by Frogster View Post
..... hebrews was about how they should be leaving the elementals of Judaistic rituals bhind, they were stalled, or reverting backwards..to works, obedience mindsets.
The higher end, was to walk with a cleansed conscience in Hebrews, not elementalism, dead works. 9:14.
soooo
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Rituals of laying on of hands, repentance, and elementary teachings were to give place to a higher meatier walk. According to Peter that would be aligning self to Him who gave His precious blood for us by applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and so on so as to continually be progressing in our walk. Those who neglect that cannot be assured of their salvation.
John says to continue in love so that also takes constant vigilance of bringing everything to Him, cleansing of the conscience takes coming to Him in prayer.
People who object to workbased obedience are looking at outward acts for the sake of human reward. The inner work takes a yeilding to the Spirit daily for His work to be wrought in us.
BUT I think that if any do the work that feeds, adds dignity, clothes, visits the downtrodden for nothing more than a reward in heaven, my bet is that they will recieve it.
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get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.
get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.
Then my question to you is what is one to leave the elementary (milk) (legalism) behind to continue on to the (meat) (spiritual) mean to you since you have no comment on it being an inner workingHi, yes thanks, i read this post.
Then my question to you is what is one to leave the elementary (milk) (legalism) behind to continue on to the (meat) (spiritual) mean to you since you have no comment on it being an inner working
get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.
Frog man, I simply asked you to look at what the text in question actually tells us not what you want it to say, so let me cut and paste the text and point out a few things to you.Oh come on, the whole book is about leaving legalsitic Judaism and i proved my point using gal 4, and the elementalism was law, that fact you ignore.
Why?
Elementalism is in 5:12. No?
Were they to leave the elementary or not?
lol..you're acting like you got me or something, no way, and please, prove me wrong about gal 4.
see my previous post, scripture is more than capable of interpreting scripture and intent for us.Why can't you see it is twofold? Both were at issue in the book, and you seem to deny that, and that they were called to leave the elementary as I have been stressing al along, in Hebrews, and Galatians..
My point stands. You want to argue about what the elementary is, while the word needs no definition, t he gildren, or as said below, the INFANT.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
14. strong meat—"solid food."
them … of full age—literally, "perfect": akin to "perfection" (Heb 6:1).
by reason of use—Greek, "habit."
senses—organs of sense.
exercised—similarly connected with "righteousness" in Heb 12:11.
to discern both good and evil—as a child no longer an infant (Isa 7:16): so able to distinguish between sound and unsound doctrine. The mere child puts into its mouth things hurtful and things nutritious, without discrimination: but not so the adult. Paul again alludes to their tendency not to discriminate, but to be carried about by strange doctrines, in Heb 13:9.
Bottom line, legalsim is elemental, and other things can be too. you are trying to isolate the text, from the whole of the context of the whole of the book.
How am i wrong about stoicheion?
what is the stoicheion here? Judaism or not?
4:3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.
it is used in 5:12 also, it all shows the same things, go on to maturity from any baby stuff.
Scripture is the authority by which I draw my understanding, not you as such, scripture stands just like I showed you
Two quick words, when I quote something, I am responding to it, so no need to go back and find the post,
also, when we study a passage, we always read it in context because from a literary standpoint, most text clarifies itself, thus the passage in question, clarifies for us what it intends to tell us about what is elementary and what is beyond. No guess work involved
see my previous post, scripture is more than capable of interpreting scripture and intent for us.
BTW just for clarification, I am not talking about legalism and I have clarified that for you multiple times now.
its getting rather weird how you equate everything back to the law .our relationship with God and journey into God ,who is eternal will be eternally guided by the Holy Spirit .. we cannot catch up to the eternal god who has no beginning and no end we will never cease getting to know him and it is an error to consider the Lord only a savior and friend ,he is also our LORD and God .and even the lord Jesus himself submitted in love and obedience to the father and so we do also because it is an evidence that the love of God is within us and at work through us .well..ummm..yes. we died, I don't see your point, but the emphasis is, the law was died to, then Paul went onto live by the higher way, by faith. There is a sequence there, just like in Gal 4, the child grew, and then became anheir, leaving the childhood obedience classes. It is als seen in chaprer 3, no more grade school, bye bye to the tutor, hello Spirit. Chronologies in the text are important to note, because they show spiritual evolvement, growth, change, leaving the elementals already, like Heb 5;12.
That has been my premise all along, leave the elementals.
When we WERE children, it says, were....past tense...in 4:3.
No more>>>> stirct pedagogues.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
No more govenors or guardians, or mangaers, they are for children..
4:2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father.
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