Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

[GillDouglas]

Firstly, I'd like to say to Mr.Douglas that you are a great addition to this thread. Your patience and knowledge of the word and the work of God is exemplary. You soar where my patience has failed and I admire and respect your work in this regard. Thank you for being here.

You give me too much credit, and speak highly of this broken man. I would never say my knowledge or my patience (especially with my children at times) is exemplary by any means. I cannot boast in my understanding because it is irrelevant to my salvation. It is only through His works, through His grace that I have any understanding and the gift of salvation. Give Him the glory my friend. God bless!

 

[GillDouglas]

To suggest that Solomon wasn't saved is preposterous. He wrote Scripture, was noted by Jesus.

And you would know without a doubt that he was saved, or anyone else besides yourself for that matter? How is it that you have this knowledge?

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

You give me too much credit, and speak highly of this broken man. I would never say my knowledge or my patience (especially with my children at times) is exemplary by any means. I cannot boast in my understanding because it is irrelevant to my salvation. It is only through His works, through His grace that I have any understanding and the gift of salvation. Give Him the glory my friend. God bless!

To reach the world God uses people whom He has given to His Son, who know and obey Him, whom He keeps while they’re in this world.

John 17:6-12

I have revealed Your name
to the men You gave Me from the world.
They were Yours, You gave them to Me,
and they have kept Your word.
7 Now they know that all things
You have given to Me are from You,
8 because the words that You gave Me,
I have given them.
They have received them
and have known for certain
that I came from You.
They have believed that You sent Me.
9 I pray for them.
I am not praying for the world
but for those You have given Me,
because they are Yours.
10 Everything I have is Yours,
and everything You have is Mine,
and I have been glorified in them.
11 I am no longer in the world,
but they are in the world,
and I am coming to You.
Holy Father,
protect them by Your name
that You have given Me,
so that they may be one as We are one.
12 While I was with them,
I was protecting them by Your name
that You have given Me.
I guarded them and not one of them is lost,
except the son of destruction,
so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.

 

[GillDouglas]

To reach the world God uses people whom He has given to His Son, who know and obey Him, whom He keeps while they’re in this world.

Amen! We must give Him thanks for these people whom He brings into our lives!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Any you would know without a doubt that he was saved, or anyone else besides yourself for that matter? How is it that you have this knowledge?

I read the Bible daily. I know how people are saved.

 

[GillDouglas]

I read the Bible daily. I know how people are saved.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. In your reading and studying of the Bible, God has told you whom He has and will save and you're claiming that He has and will save everyone? Doesn't that mean all must know Him, love Him, believe in His son Jesus? How is that possible? "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?" (1 Cor:9) "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev 21:8)

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

That kind of teaching is what I believe is called, Universalism.
Untenable using the scriptures else all Satanists, all pagans, all atheists, all unredeemed people would be assured Heaven. Whether they accept Jesus and/or God. And regardless of how they live. Be they like unto saints, or the most depraved serial killer, they go to Heaven per the Universalist stance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

No, you really haven't understood me.

In your reading and studying of the Bible, God has told you whom He has and will save and you're claiming that He has and will save everyone?

See? Proof positive that you haven't understood me. God tells everyone who reads His Word who will be saved: believers in Jesus Christ. This isn't difficult at all. Very simple, really. Secondly, who would anyone think I am a universalist? ONLY believers will be saved? Got it? ALL the rest will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Sound like universalism now?? lol

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

All of John 10 speaks to support the tenets of Calvinism.
Especially verse 26 and saving faith as referred to by Jesus himself."... But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep."

One of the best books, available on audio CD as well, is a 6 disc series recorded at the 2006 Conference On Reformed Theology in Philadelphia Pennsylvania .
"The Doctrines of Grace"

 

[FreeGrace2]

All of John 10 speaks to support the tenets of Calvinism.
Especially verse 26 and saving faith as referred to by Jesus himself."... But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep."

One of the best books, available on audio CD as well, is a 6 disc series recorded at the 2006 Conference On Reformed Theology in Philadelphia Pennsylvania .
"The Doctrines of Grace"

How does John 10 support that Christ didn't die for everyone, given the FACT that Jesus said He would die for THE sheep, all the while noting there were "MY sheep", "other sheep of MINE" and "those NOT of MY sheep". He never mentioned goats in this context, so let's not go to other places where goat and sheep are mentioned, as that would be totally irrelevant to the context of John 10.

How does John 10 support the notion that God chooses who will believe?

How does John 10 support the notion that all believers will persevere in the faith? Don't forget what Jesus said in Luke 8:13.

 

[Percivale]

Calvinism is not based on Scripture, it is based on inferences from a false presupposition--that God's sovereignty is his most prized attribute. Calvinism directly contradicts clear statements of scripture:
II cor. 5:14 "he died for all"
Jn 1;29 "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world"
I Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (Tit 2:11 NKJ)

Romans 11:22 but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
"you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:4 NKJ)

Do not quench the Spirit. (1Th 5:19 NKJ)
You always resist the Holy Spirit; (Act 7:51 NKJ)

Calvinism is based on emphasizing God being in total control. But it is those who are insecure that grasp their power. A secure person is willing to grant others freedom, even when they could control them, because they are secure enough not to be threatened by others making their own decisions. God has every right to allow people freedom. He didn't have to, but he chose to. God even has the right, the courage, and the nature to set things up so he can be resisted. If power had been more important to God than love, he would have revealed himself very differently than he did in Jesus Christ.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

You deny God's sovereignty then?

Those cherry picked verses are out of context and make not even an argument in this post for Arminianism.

Calvinism is not based on Scripture, it is based on inferences from a false presupposition--that God's sovereignty is his most prized attribute. Calvinism directly contradicts clear statements of scripture:
II cor. 5:14 "he died for all"
Jn 1;29 "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world"
I Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (Tit 2:11 NKJ)

Romans 11:22 but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
"you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:4 NKJ)

Do not quench the Spirit. (1Th 5:19 NKJ)
You always resist the Holy Spirit; (Act 7:51 NKJ)

Calvinism is based on emphasizing God being in total control. But it is those who are insecure that grasp their power. A secure person is willing to grant others freedom, even when they could control them, because they are secure enough not to be threatened by others making their own decisions. God has every right to allow people freedom. He didn't have to, but he chose to. God even has the right, the courage, and the nature to set things up so he can be resisted. If power had been more important to God than love, he would have revealed himself very differently than he did in Jesus Christ.

 

[EmSw]

The blind do not realize that were one in the sea drowning with no land in sight, could they choose to save themselves from the deep?

Amos 5:4
For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel, “seek Me that you may live".

Isaiah 55:6
Seek the Lord while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near.

The sovereign Lord gives the solution to the woes of the blind; seek Him!

Could they say to themselves, I choose not to drown!
And arrive in that instant on dry land?

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for Him, to the person who seeks Him.

Daniel 9:3
So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.

Again, the sovereign Lord gives the solution to those drowning; seek Him!

Were they in a burning building with no windows from which to leap away from the flames, could they choose in their mind that the flames would die out? So that they could then walk out of the structure now smoldering but no longer a threat to them?

1 Chronicles 28:9
As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

Psalm 119:2
How blessed are those who observe His testimonies, who seek Him with all their heart.

Psalm 105:4
Seek the Lord and His strength; seek His face continually.

Again, the sovereign Lord gives the solution to those in flames; seek Him!

No. No, to any of those scenarios.
So to it is with those that are dead in their sin. Separated from God, alive in the world.
Thinking someone can resurrect their sinful spirit and receive God's grace as if it is an item on a store shelf. Choosing to receive the grace God has established in his plan before the creation of the world upon which the sinners would dwell.

Proverbs 3:34
Surely He scorns the scornful, but gives grace to the humble.

James 4:6
But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

There is no mystery how a person receives grace from the Lord; he must humble himself!

 

[nobdysfool]

Calvinism is not based on Scripture, it is based on inferences from a false presupposition--that God's sovereignty is his most prized attribute. Calvinism directly contradicts clear statements of scripture:
II cor. 5:14 "he died for all"
Jn 1;29 "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world"
I Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (Tit 2:11 NKJ)

Romans 11:22 but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
"you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:4 NKJ)

Do not quench the Spirit. (1Th 5:19 NKJ)
You always resist the Holy Spirit; (Act 7:51 NKJ)

Calvinism is based on emphasizing God being in total control. But it is those who are insecure that grasp their power. A secure person is willing to grant others freedom, even when they could control them, because they are secure enough not to be threatened by others making their own decisions. God has every right to allow people freedom. He didn't have to, but he chose to. God even has the right, the courage, and the nature to set things up so he can be resisted. If power had been more important to God than love, he would have revealed himself very differently than he did in Jesus Christ.

Nice try, but you haven't proven anything. You reject Calvinism. Fine. We get that. We don't agree.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Amos 5:4
For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel, “seek Me that you may live".

OK, lets use the cherries to prove predestination and the scriptural references to , The Elect.

Seek me that you may live.
John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Isaiah 55:6
Seek the Lord while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near.

Same verses in all of John 10. All scriptures that tell us the sheep know him and seek him out. Thank you for posting cherries that support the tenets of Calvinism and The Elect. We Calvinists have been going over these facts over and over and over again and now we have scripture that proves God's truth again and again and again.

The sovereign Lord gives the solution to the woes of the blind; seek Him!

Many a verse speaks of and to The Elect.
John 6 and particularly verse 44: "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.''

Just as all these verses below support that fact in verse 44, but not the only verse of course. Great post. Thank you.

Jeremiah 29:13

You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for Him, to the person who seeks Him.

Daniel 9:3
So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.

Again, the sovereign Lord gives the solution to those drowning; seek Him!



1 Chronicles 28:9
As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

Psalm 119:2
How blessed are those who observe His testimonies, who seek Him with all their heart.

Psalm 105:4
Seek the Lord and His strength; seek His face continually.

Again, the sovereign Lord gives the solution to those in flames; seek Him!



Proverbs 3:34
Surely He scorns the scornful, but gives grace to the humble.

James 4:6
But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

There is no mystery how a person receives grace from the Lord; he must humble himself!

True, he must humble himself and admit that what he hears is the call of God to follow Jesus. A call made to those whom God has chosen for his grace. The Elect.

Again, great post!

 

[EmSw]

OK, lets use the cherries to prove predestination and the scriptural references to , The Elect.

Seek me that you may live.
John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

This proves nothing of predestination, nor elect, nor sheep, nor following Him; you used cucumbers instead of cherries.

You also say nothing of the man who seeks Him that he may live. Why is it a man will live if he seeks Him first? Is this Calvinist doctrine, that a man must seek Him so he may live?

Same verses in all of John 10. All scriptures that tell us the sheep know him and seek him out. Thank you for posting cherries that support the tenets of Calvinism and The Elect. We Calvinists have been going over these facts over and over and over again and now we have scripture that proves God's truth again and again and again.

This time you used pickled cucumbers. Nothing is said of sheep in the verses I provided. Nothing is too difficult in the verses I provided, which do not say what you are straining to prove.

Many a verse speaks of and to The Elect.
John 6 and particularly verse 44: "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.''

Now you are adding ranch dressing to the pickled cucumbers. The verses I provided say absolutely nothing of the elect. Are you sure you are reading the same verses I gave?

Just as all these verses below support that fact in verse 44, but not the only verse of course. Great post. Thank you.

You just spoiled the pickled cucumbers. Again, nothing is said of coming to God, nor being drawn, or being raised. I hope you have alternate veggies to eat.

True, he must humble himself and admit that what he hears is the call of God to follow Jesus. A call made to those whom God has chosen for his grace. The Elect.

Again, great post!

Wow! The pigs are having a feast with your food. Grace is given to those who humble themselves. How you came up with 'admit that what he hears is the call of God', is beyond me. But man is free to interpret the Bible anyway he chooses, and you are certainly making your choices known.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Yes, as we've been discussing and as remains true in the word. One cannot seek unless drawn to that which makes them curious and the seeker.
Very good! I thank you for those remarks that continue to support God's word as relates The Elect and Jesus' sheep.

John 10:1-42
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

This proves nothing of predestination, nor elect, nor sheep, nor following Him; you used cucumbers instead of cherries.

You also say nothing of the man who seeks Him that he may live. Why is it a man will live if he seeks Him first? Is this Calvinist doctrine, that a man must seek Him so he may live?



This time you used pickled cucumbers. Nothing is said of sheep in the verses I provided. Nothing is too difficult in the verses I provided, which do not say what you are straining to prove.



Now you are adding ranch dressing to the pickled cucumbers. The verses I provided say absolutely nothing of the elect. Are you sure you are reading the same verses I gave?



You just spoiled the pickled cucumbers. Again, nothing is said of coming to God, nor being drawn, or being raised. I hope you have alternate veggies to eat.



Wow! The pigs are having a feast with your food. Grace is given to those who humble themselves. How you came up with 'admit that what he hears is the call of God', is beyond me. But man is free to interpret the Bible anyway he chooses, and you are certainly making your choices known.

 

[EmSw]

Yes, as we've been discussing and as remains true in the word. One cannot seek unless drawn to that which makes them curious and the seeker.
Very good! I thank you for those remarks that continue to support God's word as relates The Elect and Jesus' sheep.

Would you mind providing any passages which support this idea?

John 10:1-42

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

This says nothing of seeking, though you are trying hard to make it. You are confusing 'seeking' with 'following'.

Tell me how those who seek Him, do so that they may live.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

I think the entire Bible and 15 pages of this thread is sufficient.

Would you mind providing any passages which support this idea?


This says nothing of seeking, though you are trying hard to make it. You are confusing 'seeking' with 'following'.

Tell me how those who seek Him, do so that they may live.

 

[98cwitr]

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