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Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?
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EmSw
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Do you care to provide passages which state this, or are you just speculating? And besides SITH stated no one was righteous. What do you believe, no one is righteous or there were some righteous?
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Cush
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The only place in the Bible I'll acknowledge autonomous will or "free will" comes forth from the serpent, Genesis 3:5 - "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
The two lies:
Eve would be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over herself apart from God.
There is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself.
The Doctrine of Autonomous Self: A Hidden Idolatry
God bless,
Cush
The two lies:
Eve would be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over herself apart from God.
There is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself.
The Doctrine of Autonomous Self: A Hidden Idolatry
God bless,
Cush
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Christ took upon our sins, and died as a sin offering for them. He didn't "take on the punishment of sin" but rather existed as a fulfillment of OT sacrifice.
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EmSw
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If Jesus took our sins on the cross, why did He state the following after His death?
Luke 24
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Why repent for the remission of sins, if He took them on the cross?
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It's wonderful that you don't take into account the context of this entire thread. As posted on page one:
1] The Fall has resulted in a spiritual death for all men:
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." [Ephesians 2:1-3]
"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses." [Colossians 2:13]
"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses." [Colossians 2:13]
2] Fallen man is blind and deaf to spiritual truth:
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil." [Jeremiah 13:23]
"The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." [Genesis 6:5]
"And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, 'I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.'" [Genesis 8:21]
"This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead." [Ecclesiastes 9:3]
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" [Jeremiah 17:9]
"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person." [Mark 7:21-23]
"The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." [Genesis 6:5]
"And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, 'I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.'" [Genesis 8:21]
"This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead." [Ecclesiastes 9:3]
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" [Jeremiah 17:9]
"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person." [Mark 7:21-23]
3] Fallen man is under the control of Satan, and in bondage to sin.
"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies." [John 8:44]
"God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." [2 Timothy 2:25-26]
"By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." [1 John 3:10]
"None is righteous, no, not one. no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." [Romans 3:10-12]
"Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you." [Psalm 143:2]
"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness." [Romans 6:20]
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another." [Titus 3:3]
4] Fallen man in his natural state is totally unable to repent, believe, or accept the Gospel. "God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." [2 Timothy 2:25-26]
"By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." [1 John 3:10]
"None is righteous, no, not one. no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." [Romans 3:10-12]
"Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you." [Psalm 143:2]
"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness." [Romans 6:20]
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another." [Titus 3:3]
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." [John 6:44]
"And He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'" [John 6:55]
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." [Romans 8:7-8]
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." [1 Corinthians 2:14]
5] God has an elect people He has chosen to grant salvation."And He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'" [John 6:55]
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." [Romans 8:7-8]
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." [1 Corinthians 2:14]
"Yet the Lord set His heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day." [Deuteronomy 10:15]
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." [Matthew 24:22-24]
"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [Matthew 24:31]
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day." [John 6:37-39]
"And He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'" [John 6:65]
"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." [John 17:9]
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." [Romans 8:28-33]
"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." [Romans 11:5]
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will." [Ephesians 1:4-5]
"In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." [Ephesians 1:11]
"For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." [1 Thessalonians 1:4-5]
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." [1 Thessalonians 5:9]
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." [2 Thessalonians 2:13]
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with His blood." [1 Peter 1:1-2]
"They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." [1 Peter 2:8-9]
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." [Matthew 24:22-24]
"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [Matthew 24:31]
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day." [John 6:37-39]
"And He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'" [John 6:65]
"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." [John 17:9]
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." [Romans 8:28-33]
"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." [Romans 11:5]
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will." [Ephesians 1:4-5]
"In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." [Ephesians 1:11]
"For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." [1 Thessalonians 1:4-5]
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." [1 Thessalonians 5:9]
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." [2 Thessalonians 2:13]
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with His blood." [1 Peter 1:1-2]
"They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." [1 Peter 2:8-9]
6] God's choice was not based on any foreseen faith or good works.
"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that He swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." [Deuteronomy 7:6-8]
"Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" [Romans 9:11-13]
"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." [Romans 9:16]
"But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God." [1 Corinthians 1:27-29]
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began." [2 Timothy 1:9]
"Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" [Romans 9:11-13]
"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." [Romans 9:16]
"But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God." [1 Corinthians 1:27-29]
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began." [2 Timothy 1:9]
7] Faith and good works are the results, not the grounds, of predestination.
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." [Acts 13:48]
"And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed." [Acts 18:27]
"So that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory." [Ephesians 1:12]
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:10]
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake." [Philippians 1:29]
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." [Philippians 2:12-13]
"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." [1 Thessalonians 1:4-5]
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." [2 Thessalonians 2:13-14]
"And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed." [Acts 18:27]
"So that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory." [Ephesians 1:12]
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:10]
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake." [Philippians 1:29]
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." [Philippians 2:12-13]
"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." [1 Thessalonians 1:4-5]
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." [2 Thessalonians 2:13-14]
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Repentance and atonement are not the same thing.
It is apparent by your posts that you are neither (a) a Christian, nor (b) someone who has a basic and fundamental grasp of Christian doctrine. This is perfectly okay, so for a minute why don't you take a brief rest from cherry-picking Bible verses on google and look at the basic Christian view of the concepts of repentance and atonement, as this thread was originally intended for Biblically-literate Christians, and not as a catechesis or as a battling ground for the debate of whether or not Christ actually atoned for sin. I don't mean this in harsh expression, but simply view this as a relatively simple opportunity to teach.
It is reasonably safe to assume that the general Christian consensus is that Jesus' death and resurrection opened the gate to heaven, but it is still necessary for the individual to enter that gate. Thus, by taking up our sins on the cross, Christ ensured that repentance and forgiveness were, and are, effective.
To repent, by definition, is to "feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin." It's not to atone, which by definition, is to "make amends or reparation."
See the difference?
Christ atoned for our sins, but I repent of them, and through His death, am forgiven.
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No one is righteous, before or after the cross, save they be given the grace of God and gift of faith. If you read "all that" rather than simply skipping it, you'd be able to understand.
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nobdysfool
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Physical death is the punishment for sin. Very clearly stated, multiple times. Enough of the nonsense and false accusations.
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nobdysfool
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Arguing for the sake of arguing is a fleshly pursuit....just sayin'. If one is keeping score, by trusting in their own works, this one will not fall in the "good" column.
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Lazy_Proverb
"You did not choose me but I chose you"Jn.15:16
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Now it appears EeSw has logged off. Now we should expect FreeGrace2 to come in and pick up where EwSw left off in this.
I believe SITH is right. This is a teaching opportunity. However, I'd say for those in the Reformed community it is a learning opportunity as well.
I believe SITH is right. This is a teaching opportunity. However, I'd say for those in the Reformed community it is a learning opportunity as well.
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EmSw
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However Jesus told us to repent for the remission of sin. If Jesus atoned for sins on the cross, it did not remove the penalty of sin.
Do you have a problem with Bible verses? I thought that was the foundation of Christians.
Not only enter the gate, but STRIVE to enter.
What sins did you commit at the time Christ died on the cross? Why did He take your sins on the cross? What did He do to your yet uncommitted sins? If He atoned for man's sins on the cross, why do you say man is born in sin?
Since making amends is correcting faults, compensation, and repairing, what faults of yours were corrected when He was on the cross? How is it you fell back into those faults through birth?
We repent for the remission of sins. Do you know what remissions is?
- release from bondage or imprisonment?
- forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty?
It is through repentance, we are released from the bondage of sin; we are pardoned of our sins (letting them go as if they were never committed); and remission of the penalty of sin.
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