Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

[SinnerInTheHands]

Yes, the "us" are believers. Which is who God chose, in v.4. iow, He chose believers. And for what? Not salvation, since believers are already saved. That's what believers are; saved. So v.4 says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless. That's not being chosen for salvation. The election here is about lifestyle.

Brother, you are so close! Can you not see how wonderful election is? "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." [1 Thessalonians 5:9]

"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began." [2 Timothy 1:9]

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." [Romans 8:28-33]

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." [1 Thessalonians 1:4-5]

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." [2 Thessalonians 2:13]

"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with His blood." [1 Peter 1:1-2]

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you." [John 15:16]​

Excuse me, but He very clearly stated that He would die for THE sheep. Not once did He say He would die only for HIS sheep, or even His sheep, even without the "only" or "just". He was clear: he would die for THE sheep, and He made it clear from John 10:7-9 what He meant by THE sheep.

Within John 10? In the beginning Christ tells us what He means by all references to "the" sheep in the rest of the passage:

"The sheep hear His voice, and He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. When He has brought out all His own, He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him, for they know his voice." [John 10:3-4]​

Am I missing something? From John 10:7-19, Jesus is speaking of His sheep which He separated from the greater flock in John 10:3-4. Context.

The real issue with limited atonement is simple: whether or not Christ shed a drop of unnecessary blood. If we're still using the sheep of John 10, the Calvinist position can be taught rather easily.

1] Jesus died for the sheep [John 10:14-15].

2] Jesus will lose none of the sheep [John 10:28]

3] Many people will not be saved [Matthew 7:13-14]​

The prominent Puritan theologian John Owen put it masterfully: "For whom did Christ die? The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

The logical conclusion to the teaching of Unconditional Election is that the most devout person, having the most virtue, merit and faith ever found among mankind could be damned to hell because God withheld His mercy from him and the most heinous and despicable sinner could be saved because God extended His mercy to him.

You fundamentally misunderstand the doctrine. A Calvinist would look at the hypothetical situation you have given, and say that God has predestined what you see as "the most devout person" for salvation. He has given this person virtue, merit, and faith; these are divine gifts resulting from the regenerating work of God, not the cause of it. On the other hand, He has withheld his grace on "the most heinous and despicable sinner." Follow? We can easily see that this is entirely Scriptural:

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." [Ezekiel 36:26-27]

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:10]

"For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?" [1 Corinthians 4:7]

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." [Acts 13:48]

"One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul." [Acts 16:14]

"And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed." [Acts 18:27]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." [Ephesians 2:8-9]

"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake." [Philippians 1:29]

"But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." [John 1:12-13]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." [1 Peter 1:3]

"He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." [Titus 3:5]

"And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." [Deuteronomy 30:6]

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation." [2 Corinthians 5:17-18]​

The Lord acts to cause men to seek him. Why would He do that if He had already decided who would live and who would die? Why would he bother with man at all since nothing they might do would have any influence on whether they would live or die? If God does not respond to man’s plea for salvation then why did Paul tell the men of Athens that God wants men to seek him? Why would God want men to seek Him if it would make no difference? What kind of God acts like that? Surely not a God who is merciful and loving and kind and desires that none should perish but that all would be saved. Not the God of scripture.

Again, I don't think you quite get the grasp of Calvinist salvation. You are an Orthodox Christian [I mean that denominationally, not theologically]. You, assumedly, believe in free will. So let me ask you something: does God know everything that we do before we do it? If not, how is He omnipotent? If so, why should there be a distinction between foreknowledge and foreordination? Are you suggesting that a Sovereign God does not control all of His creation?

“Unconditional Election” proposes that calling on the name of the Lord, trusting in the Lord, and believing in the Lord are all useless exercises. If God has not “elected” you then calling on Him or trusting Him or believing in Him won’t make any difference; you are going to hell.

If a man pleas to God, trusts on God, and believes in God, He is one of the elect. It's a simple as that.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Perseverance of the saints

Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security." The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.

As with all of the doctrines described by “TULIP,” it is based on the heretical doctrine that man has no free will and cannot choose to repent and be reconciled to God and neither can he refuse to accept God’s gracious gift of eternal life if God "elects" him for salvation.

The Biblical teaching is otherwise. While nothing can force man to be separated from God, man can turn away from that relationship. The following verses refute the false notion that “saved” person has no ability to turn away from God and life and back to sin and death.

COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance,

2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins…..10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to MAKE YOUR calling and ELECTION SURE. For IFyou do these things, you will never fall,

2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

The scripture also teaches that God will reject a “saved” person if he is not obedient.

JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

There are, of course, verses which appear to support the notion of the “preservation of the saints.” But it is necessary to look at all the scriptures which address the issue. The ones posted above refute the teaching. Preservation cannot be a valid doctrine if it is directly refuted by scripture.

Please note that the circular reasoning which proposes that “falling away” is proof that they were never really saved. It is impossible to “fall away” unless you have been in a place from which you could fall; in this case, that “place is called, “being saved.”

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:19]

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian.

The Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem was held in 1672 to address a supposed Confession of the Patriarch of Constantinople supporting Calvinist beliefs. The Acts and Decrees of the Synod of Jerusalem included an excerpt entitled "The Confession of Dositheus" which refuted the basic tenets of Calvinism, though I don't think the Confession maps point-by-point into TULIP (in fact, I don't think TULIP mapped into TULIP when Calvin wrote The Institutes).

My unqualified opinion is that beliefs like Calvin's ultimately find their root in the medieval tract, Cur Deus Homo, supposedly authored by the Roman Catholic Anselm of Canterbury. There is very little, if any, connection to how the Church Fathers interpreted the Apostolic teaching.

People like Augustine, who shares many points with Calvin?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Yes, the "us" are believers. Which is who God chose, in v.4. iow, He chose believers. And for what? Not salvation, since believers are already saved. That's what believers are; saved. So v.4 says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless. That's not being chosen for salvation. The election here is about lifestyle."

To which, your response:

Brother, you are so close!

Actually, I nailed it!!

Can you not see how wonderful election is? "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." [1 Thessalonians 5:9]

Brother, you are so far away! 1 Thess 5:9 isn't about election, but what God intends for believers to obtain; salvation. There is no mention of election in this verse.

"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began." [2 Timothy 1:9]

This is exactly my point. Those who believe are saved, and are CALLED to a holy calling (holy and blameless). It IS about lifestyle.

Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." [1 Thessalonians 1:4-5]

Again, God has chosen believers (brothers).

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." [2 Thessalonians 2:13]

This isn't election, btw, but a different word for "chose" than the word translated "elected". But, it does tell us WHO He has chosen to save: those who believe the truth.

"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with His blood." [1 Peter 1:1-2]

Another verse that refutes Calvinism. Peter plainly says that the elect are "according to the foreknowledge of God". God's election is based on foreknowledge of those He has chosen.

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you." [John 15:16]

Does this verse say anything about being chosen for salvation? No. Not even close. It is about being chosen for service.
​

Within John 10? In the beginning Christ tells us what He means by all references to "the" sheep in the rest of the passage:

"The sheep hear His voice, and He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. When He has brought out all His own, He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him, for they know his voice." [John 10:3-4]​

Really? Even in the beginning of John, Jesus speaks of THE sheep, who hear His voice, and HIS OWN sheep. Duh. And again, Jesus NEVER said He would die for HIS sheep. He said TWICE that He would die for THE sheep, all the while noting that there were HIS sheep and those NOT of HIS sheep.

Am I missing something?

Yes, obviously.

From John 10:7-19, Jesus is speaking of His sheep which He separated from the greater flock in John 10:3-4. Context.

Where did He speak of separating any sheep? He spoke of leading HIS sheep, not leading THE sheep. And the context for who He died for begins with His comment about being the DOOR of THE sheep, and only those who enter by Him will be saved. Clearly a metaphor about believing in Him for eternal life. That's where the context begins. And THEN He said He would die for THE sheep, NOT HIS sheep. THE sheep; ALL of THE sheep. Nothing less. This is indisputable.​

The real issue with limited atonement is simple: whether or not Christ shed a drop of unnecessary blood.

Says you. There is no "real issue" with limited atonement. It isn't even taught in Scripture. Jesus made that quite clear in John 10. He would die for THE sheep, not just HIS.

If we're still using the sheep of John 10, the Calvinist position can be taught rather easily.

1] Jesus died for the sheep [John 10:14-15].

2] Jesus will lose none of the sheep [John 10:28]​

The error is that in v.28 Jesus was NOT speaking of THE sheep, as He did back in v.11 and 15. He was speaking about HIS sheep only.

3] Many people will not be saved [Matthew 7:13-14]

Yes, and these would be "those NOT of MY sheep". v.26 So we KNOW that in v.28 Jesus was speaking of ONLY HIS sheep. Not THE sheep.​

The prominent Puritan theologian John Owen put it masterfully: "For whom did Christ die? The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Obviously he was not that familiar with Scripture. Christ died for THE sheep, not just HIS sheep. That is crystal clear.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

The doctrine of Calvinism has never been defeated becasue it is the true exposition of scripture." Dr.Ken Talbot

"God command what you will and give what you command." Dr.Thomas Nettles

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Obviously he was not that familiar with Scripture. Christ died for THE sheep, not just HIS sheep. That is crystal clear.

That is an example of lack of familiarity with scripture. Jesus died for the sheep that are his sheep given him by the Father before the creation of the world. All scriptural fact.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The doctrine of Calvinism has never been defeated becasue it is the true exposition of scripture." Dr.Ken Talbot

Scripture has refuted his claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That is an example of lack of familiarity with scripture. Jesus died for the sheep that are his sheep given him by the Father before the creation of the world. All scriptural fact.

Nowhere in John 10 did Jesus say that THE sheep are HIS sheep. The claim is fallacious. He died for THE sheep, which is not "MY sheep", which He also noted.

Those who would claim that THE = MY are only kidding themselves and trying to defend what is not defendable.

Jesus noted these kinds of sheep in John 10

THE sheep, for which He died

MY sheep

OTHER sheep of MINE

those NOT of MY sheep

He died for ALL of THE sheep. Those that were HIS, and those who were NOT of HIS sheep.

The word "the" and the word "My" are not the same, regardless of how hard one wants it to be.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Scripture has refuted his claim.

No, it hasn't.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, it hasn't.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Sure. He was speaking of believers, who He described as "MY sheep". But He never said He would lay down His life for HIS sheep. He said He would lay down His life for THE sheep. He died for THE sheep, of which some were HIS sheep, and others were not of HIS sheep.

Jesus was very clear about who He would die for. Again, if He had said in John 10 that He would lay down His life for HIS sheep, Calvinism would be correct. But He didn't say that, and Calvinism is not correct regarding who He died for.

 

[Butch5]

A] This is not written to the Jews, but to the church in Rome. The Romans were gentiles.

Paul opens the letter to the church in general. However, in the letter he address each group at different times. As I said in chapter 2 Paul turns his attention to the Jewish believers in the church.


17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,

18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,

19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,

20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. (Rom. 2:17-20 NKJ)

He continues this discourse through chapter 11.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

(Rom. 11:13-14 NKJ)

What Paul wrote from Chapter 2 to chapter 11 is addressed to the Jewish believers in the Church at Rome. That can be verified by his references in those chapter to the Jews.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? (Rom. 4:1 NKJ)

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? (Rom. 7:1 NKJ)

B] I think you forgot about "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." [Romans 9:7-8] when claiming that this was about the Jews and no one else.

I didn't forget. Notice what it says, they are not all Israel that are of Israel. You know who is Israel is right? Israel is Jacob. All of those referenced in the passage are the offspring of Jacob. They're all Israelites. Paul concludes that not all of Jacobs (Israel) offspring are considered Israel. Remember, the promises were made to the fathers, Abraham in particular. The promise was to his seed. Thus the Jews understood that as Abraham's seed they were entitled to the promises. Paul tells them they're wrong. Not all of Israel is counted as the seed. Only those of the promise are counted as the seed.

C] Nothing about double predestination? "Our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [Romans 9:10-14]. Or how about: "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." [Romans 9:18]. Or even: "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" [Romans 9:21-24].

Nope, nothing about double predestination. The choosing is to fulfill the plan which is the promises made to the fathers that he began the chapter with. The promises that Paul is referring to are those to Abraham, that he would be the father of a great nation, that he would inherit the land, that he would be the father of many nations, and that all nations would be blessed through him. These are promises. In Romans 9 Paul is explaining how God has chosen some to use to fulfill these and some He has not. Notice Paul's use of the potter and the clay. God make two vessels from one lump. Both vessels come from the same source. This isn't Israelites and Gentiles, it's believing Israelites and unbelieving Israelites, they're from the same lump. God has chosen some Israelites to use in fulfilling the promises and has rejected others. Ultimately, Paul concludes in Galatians 3 that the Seed is Christ. It is through Christ that all nations would blessed. So, it is through Christ that God has fulfilled the promise to Abraham. But, the entire plan used Israelites, not Gentiles. From Jacob to Christ it was all through the Israelites.

D] Begging the question? You're the one whose inferring. These are clear cut scriptural examples, and because you have your own foot in your mouth you're complaining about how they couldn't possibly be true because you disagree with them.

There's no need for the ad hominems. Yes, it's begging the question. There's nothing in this chapter about God choosing who will and won't be saved. The passage even says regarding God's election that the elder shall saver the younger. It doesn't say one is saved and the other isn't.

Also, the passage that Paul quoted from Malachi, 'Jacob have loved and Esau have I hated' was made hundreds of years after they both died. If you read Obadiah you'll find out why God hated Esau. Paul's point is that God was with Jacob.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Sure. He was speaking of believers, who He described as "MY sheep". But He never said He would lay down His life for HIS sheep. He said He would lay down His life for THE sheep. He died for THE sheep, of which some were HIS sheep, and others were not of HIS sheep.

Jesus was very clear about who He would die for. Again, if He had said in John 10 that He would lay down His life for HIS sheep, Calvinism would be correct. But He didn't say that, and Calvinism is not correct regarding who He died for.

Yes, he was very clear and that clarity did not include any allusion to universalism.

Whereas, my sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me , speaks to a certain kind of sheep. Those who know his voice and he knows them. Therefore, by relationship of that verse in John 10:27, when Jesus laid down his life for the sheep those sheep were the sheep he knew. He knew them before the beginning of the world and it was to them he called, and they hear his voice, and they follow him because he died to save them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Sure. He was speaking of believers, who He described as "MY sheep". But He never said He would lay down His life for HIS sheep. He said He would lay down His life for THE sheep. He died for THE sheep, of which some were HIS sheep, and others were not of HIS sheep.

Jesus was very clear about who He would die for. Again, if He had said in John 10 that He would lay down His life for HIS sheep, Calvinism would be correct. But He didn't say that, and Calvinism is not correct regarding who He died for."

Yes, he was very clear and that clarity did not include any allusion to universalism.

Huh? Who said anything about universalism? Those He died for are MORE than those He saves. There is no connection between the 2. He died for all so that all MAY be saved. But we also know that not all will be saved. We are saved by faith. His death doesn't save us. God saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so.

Whereas, my sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me , speaks to a certain kind of sheep. Those who know his voice and he knows them. Therefore, by relationship of that verse in John 10:27, when Jesus laid down his life for the sheep those sheep were the sheep he knew. He knew them before the beginning of the world and it was to them he called, and they hear his voice, and they follow him because he died to save them.

Yes, those who believe do follow Him because of what He did for them. But that fact doesn't speak to a limited atonement.

Once again, there are no verses anywhere in Scripture that speaks to Christ's death as being exclusionary of anyone in humanity. Why isn't that a clue? And there are multiple verses that very plainly and directly SAY that Christ died for all. Heb 2:9 and 2 Cor 5:14 and 15. And Jesus was clear about who He would die for: THE sheep, not just HIS sheep.

If His death was limited to some, He would have SAID SO. He had every opportunity to say so, especially in John 10. But He didn't. He differentiated between different sheep; HIS and those NOT of HIS. And He SAID He would die for THE sheep. Not HIS sheep.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Actually, the old and new testament are repleat with verses that speak to the chosen, the elect of God, the sheep, separate and apart from goats, as an exclusive class, hence the term The Elect, and for whom Jesus came to bring his message. A message in a fallen world that would resonate to those who were meant to hear and respond to the call of the Shepherd who knows them by name. And has known them each individually before the creation of the world.

The whole of the Bible speaks of these things. And after 10 pages you repeat your rhetoric against scriptural proof of that, despite scriptural proof of that posted over and over in this thread, so as to deny that which you do not wish to acknowledge.
And that is because, like unto Saul, scales cover your eyes and you do not see. And that is because what is tattooed on those scales that go before your eyes and preclude your seeing a thing beyond them is the term: CALVINISM.
A word! Separates your consciousness from reading the truth of God.

And that too is also in scripture and as God wills.
I will cease my efforts to get through. And repent of my hubris and pride that thought I could overcome what I now realize is God's doing. John 10 speaks volumes to those who can see. The Bible , like unto a shofar sounding across the landscape of the fallen world, heralds the truth of all the scripture. And that, praise God, is and forever shall be the final word that calls to those with the ear to hear and the eyes to see. Because they possess the heart that seeks the nourishment waiting there.

Amen.

I said this:
"Sure. He was speaking of believers, who He described as "MY sheep". But He never said He would lay down His life for HIS sheep. He said He would lay down His life for THE sheep. He died for THE sheep, of which some were HIS sheep, and others were not of HIS sheep.

Jesus was very clear about who He would die for. Again, if He had said in John 10 that He would lay down His life for HIS sheep, Calvinism would be correct. But He didn't say that, and Calvinism is not correct regarding who He died for."

Huh? Who said anything about universalism? Those He died for are MORE than those He saves. There is no connection between the 2. He died for all so that all MAY be saved. But we also know that not all will be saved. We are saved by faith. His death doesn't save us. God saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so.


Yes, those who believe do follow Him because of what He did for them. But that fact doesn't speak to a limited atonement.

Once again, there are no verses anywhere in Scripture that speaks to Christ's death as being exclusionary of anyone in humanity. Why isn't that a clue? And there are multiple verses that very plainly and directly SAY that Christ died for all. Heb 2:9 and 2 Cor 5:14 and 15. And Jesus was clear about who He would die for: THE sheep, not just HIS sheep.

If His death was limited to some, He would have SAID SO. He had every opportunity to say so, especially in John 10. But He didn't. He differentiated between different sheep; HIS and those NOT of HIS. And He SAID He would die for THE sheep. Not HIS sheep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually, the old and new testament are repleat with verses that speak to the chosen, the elect of God, the sheep, separate and apart from goats, as an exclusive class, hence the term The Elect, and for whom Jesus came to bring his message.

The issue is the context of John 10, where Jesus clearly distinguished between "MY sheep" and those NOT of "MY sheep", all the while stating within THAT context that He would die for THE sheep. One simply cannot get around this obvious fact. Trying to force other contexts into Johnb 10 will not work. Nowhere in John 10 is there any mention of goats. So let's not bring goats into the context of John 10. The issue is sheep only. And Jesus set up the context by metaphor. He is the door of THE sheep (v.7). Then He goes on to say “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." (v.9) The context is any "sheep" who enters through Him, meaning believe in Him. He is clearly indicating that not all THE sheep will enter through Him. But those who do will be saved. Yet, in v.11 and 15 He clearly states who He would die for: THE sheep. Not His own only.

The whole of the Bible speaks of these things.

Then why are there NO verses that plainly state that Christ didn't die for everyone, and in FACT, state that He died for all?

And after 10 pages you repeat your rhetoric against scriptural proof of that, despite scriptural proof of that posted over and over in this thread, so as to deny that which you do not wish to acknowledge.

No one has yet posted any verses that speak of Christ's death being only for some, however it may be phrased. I've only found rhetoric on the side of Calvinists, obviously because there are no verses to support the claim that Christ didn't die for everyone.

And that is because, like unto Saul, scales cover your eyes and you do not see.

This is pure fantasy. Why don't Calvinsts see these verses?

2 Cor 5:14-15: 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

We know the entire human race has died, as noted in the phrase "therefore all died". And just before that Paul stated that "one died for ALL". The same ALL. And he repeats, just for the future Calvinists, in v.15 that "He died for all". It couldn't be more clear.

And there is NOTHING in context here to point to for the claim that "all" doesn't mean everyone, but only "all of some sort". It clearly means all who have died, meaning the entire human race. Again, Jesus said He would die for THE sheep, not just or only His sheep. Jn 10

Your turn.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

If you understood context my dear this thread would not have had to churn 10 pages of your repeating your remarks and therefore proof you've no comprehension of context at all.

And now, I am certainly finished before we arrive at a tragic 11.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Alright, I've got an hour to kill, a Sacred Harp playlist running in the back, and a Bible. I'm ready to do this the long way.

The issue is the context of John 10, where Jesus clearly distinguished between "MY sheep" and those NOT of "MY sheep", all the while stating within THAT context that He would die for THE sheep. One simply cannot get around this obvious fact. Trying to force other contexts into Johnb 10 will not work. Nowhere in John 10 is there any mention of goats. So let's not bring goats into the context of John 10. The issue is sheep only. And Jesus set up the context by metaphor. He is the door of THE sheep (v.7). Then He goes on to say “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." (v.9) The context is any "sheep" who enters through Him, meaning believe in Him. He is clearly indicating that not all THE sheep will enter through Him. But those who do will be saved. Yet, in v.11 and 15 He clearly states who He would die for: THE sheep. Not His own only.

So let's look at John 10, and for now, only John 10.

John 10:1-6 ESV:​

“'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.' This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them."

From this, we can make a few basic assumptions:

1. Jesus is speaking in parable.
2. When Jesus refers to "the" sheep within the context of John 10:1-6, He refers to all mankind.
3. Jesus says that His sheep follow His voice, and no other.
4. Jesus "calls his own sheep by name and leads them out."

John 10:7-13 ESV:

"So Jesus again said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.'"

Again, we can make a few assumptions:

1. Jesus is the door of "the" sheep. within context, He refers to all mankind.
2. If anyone enters by Jesus (i.e. believes in Jesus) he will be saved.
3. Jesus is the good shepherd.

Hold up a minute, now Jesus has ceased talking about himself as the door, and instead refers to himself as the shepherd. So what can we infer through what is shown earlier in John?

1. We know that Jesus is no longer referring to Himself as the door.
   
2. We know that Jesus, referring to Himself as shepherd, "calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice." [John 10:3-4]
3. We know that the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. We also know that a hired hand, who does not own the sheep, flees. Can we not say that the shepherd's sheep are those He owns, and thus His?

John 10:14-18

"'I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.'"

This is interesting. Jesus in John 10:14 again makes reference to John 10:3-4, where He says that the good shepherd "calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice." Hm.
​

Then why are there NO verses that plainly state that Christ didn't die for everyone, and in FACT, state that He died for all? No one has yet posted any verses that speak of Christ's death being only for some, however it may be phrased. I've only found rhetoric on the side of Calvinists, obviously because there are no verses to support the claim that Christ didn't die for everyone.

I could post a lot more verses, but we can tell a few poignant things from Scripture:

1] Jesus Christ was sent into the world to save only those the Father had given Him.​

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise Him up on the last day." [John 6:37-40]

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." [John 10:14-18]

"So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." [John 10:24-29]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him." [Ephesians 1:3-4]

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace." [Ephesians 1:7]

"In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." [Ephesians 1:13]​

2] Christ's gift of salvation was intended for the specific people [the Elect] the Father had given Him, rather than the entire world.

"She will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." [Matthew 1:21]

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." [John 10:11]

"Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." [John 10:15]

"But you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." [John 10:26]

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." [Acts 20:28]

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." [Ephesians 5:25-27]

"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised - who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." [Romans 8:32-34]

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." [John 15:13]

"Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." [Matthew 20:28]

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." [Matthew 26:28]

"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." [Acts 20:28]

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." [Ephesians 5:25-27]

"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised - who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." [Romans 8:32-34]

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." [John 15:13]

"Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." [Matthew 20:28]

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." [Matthew 26:28]

"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]​

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Alright, I've got an hour to kill, a Sacred Harp playlist running in the back, and a Bible. I'm ready to do this the long way.

I'd be interested in the title of that Sacred Harp CD.

The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over again expecting a different result.

God bless you for your tenacity and patience brother. Genuinely and from the heart.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

I'd be interested in the title of that Sacred Harp CD.

The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over again expecting a different result.

God bless you for your tenacity and patience brother. Genuinely and from the heart.

Amen.

I'll link you the band camp pages, where you can download [for free] all the good Cork Sacred Harp conventions. Since they stopped doing Sacred Harp in the South, for some reason the Irish started picking up the practice and they're quite good.

https://bandcamp.com/download?id=26...g=ac310da9740cbee36fe0aa224623ec7a&type=album

https://bandcamp.com/download?id=40...g=0dc519b639309cc13c18564737a2af40&type=album

https://bandcamp.com/download?id=28...g=96671a49b597f2b1c811ec481da4981b&type=album

https://bandcamp.com/download?id=18...g=31e90d9bbe92c494bbe07f74e166369d&type=album

My favorites are 107 Russia:

178 Africa:

183 Greenwich:

146 Hallelujah:

59 Holy Manna:

And 318 Present Joys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLbNpdkLz3A