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Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

Do the 66 canonical books of Scripture support or oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

  • Support

    Votes: 11 40.7%
  • Oppose

    Votes: 16 59.3%

  • Total voters
    27
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FreeGrace2

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Once again, as posted earlier:

1] God has an elect people He has chosen to grant salvation.

None of those previously quoted verses says that God saves elect people. Just the opposite, as seen from Eph 1:4. "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love" Who are the "us"? Those who believe, per Eph 1:19

2] God's choice was not based on any foreseen faith or good works.
Just the opposite: God is well pleased to save those who believe, per 1 Cor 1:21. That's who He chooses to save: those who believe.

3] Faith and good works are the results, not the grounds, of predestination.
No verse provided teaches that. Try again. In fact, it is only believers that are predestined. And it's not to salvation, but to service.

5] Fallen man is blind and deaf to spiritual truth:
How come 2 Cor 3:15-16 says the opposite? 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.


6] Fallen man is under the control of Satan, and in bondage to sin.
What does this prove relative to Calvinism?


7] Fallen man in his natural state is totally unable to repent, believe, or accept the Gospel.
Please re-read 2 Cor 3:15-16.
 
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Lazy_Proverb

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Maybe because it is the only view of free will that they can attack. ;)
No Calvinist here is waging an attack on any doctrinal point in scripture.

As has been noted and perhaps missed in these many pages, hyper-Calvinists do not accept the doctrine of free will.
Those who are interested in learning what hyper-Calvinism teaches are able to seek that information for themselves.
Or if there is a HC here they can of course share their thoughts.

Whereas Calvinists do accept free will exists. All within the domain and under the authority and control of God of course. We're not robots living our lives stepping in a template of carved out footsteps laid there for us to find as if by instinct. We're able to make our free choice. And that is all within the surveyorship , as word that should encompass my thoughts on this, of God the Father.

Further, evil is the antithesis of righteousness. Most know this.
To say that evil is outside of God's creative power is to say evil trumps God's dominion and foreknowledge. As if evil came to exist and God had not a thing to do with it or a thing to say after it somehow appeared in the eternal realms under his control.

That's a belief in its own that in my view say evil is an entity unto itself and God is separate and apart from it.
An odd thing for a supreme being.

God created ha Satan. God's omniscience, his foreknowledge, the predestination spoken of in scripture and before the worlds creation, was not unaware of the rebellion. Or the spirit in his created angel. Conceding that God created calamity but not evil is not a concession that concurs with God's supreme power and authority. Nor is Calamity less impacting than evil.
If nothing else, seeking out the synonyms for Calamity would behoove a Bible student greatly in their pursuits of understanding of scripture.
 
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Lazy_Proverb

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SITH, are those pointed responses concerning Calvinism your own writing? Or did you copy from a website?

I ask because those are wonderful responses.

Be aware also that you are , as I'm sure you know but just for the sake of it, meeting a wall that will not be breached by the truth of our beliefs.

In my travels I've found there are people who imagine the Calvinist Christian has stated that Jesus came to found Calvinism.
When really all the new testament speaks to what Calvinism compartmentalizes for understanding of those scriptures.


"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." [John 6:44]now Him exists outside of space and time. So my question is this: what about Gods foreknowledge and foreordination? If man has complete free will, then God has no foreknowledge of what will happen, and if God has foreknowledge of what will happen and man has complete free will, then God has no foreordination. If God has no foreknowledge, He is not omniscient, and if He has no foreordination, He is not omnipotent. Thus, God, existing outside of time and space, must both know all things and ordain all things [as the creator and preserver of the universe]. ..........
 
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FreeGrace2

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No Calvinist here is waging an attack on any doctrinal point in scripture.
Why do they generally describe "free will" as having power to save? That is an attack, as free will isn't about power, but freedom of choice.

Further, evil is the antithesis of righteousness. Most know this.
Except those Calvinists who use that verse to support the idea that God is the Cause of everything.

To say that evil is outside of God's creative power is to say evil trumps God's dominion and foreknowledge.
Nonsense. Is this an admission on your part that God creates evil?

As if evil came to exist and God had not a thing to do with it or a thing to say after it somehow appeared in the eternal realms under his control.
The Scriptural view is that God, with full knowledge of how all of His creatures choose, allows them to choose evil. And reap the consequences thereof.

God created ha Satan. God's omniscience, his foreknowledge, the predestination spoken of in scripture and before the worlds creation, was not unaware of the rebellion. Or the spirit in his created angel.
Correct.

Conceding that God created calamity but not evil is not a concession that concurs with God's supreme power and authority. Nor is Calamity less impacting than evil.
If nothing else, seeking out the synonyms for Calamity would behoove a Bible student greatly in their pursuits of understanding of scripture.
Regardless, to believe that God creates evil is nonsense, as Scripture is quite clear about God's view of sin.
 
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Lazy_Proverb

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Why do they generally describe "free will" as having power to save? That is an attack, as free will isn't about power, but freedom of choice.
No, it is not an attack.

Free will has been explained repeatedly in this thread.


Except those Calvinists who use that verse to support the idea that God is the Cause of everything.
God is the source of all things that exist. Past, present, future.
All things that occur are according to his will. That is scripture. Isaiah 45:7 is clear. One doesn't have to agree with it but it is there reporting of God's power, as just one verse that does so, regardless of whim the whims that refuse to read it and take it for what it says.


Nonsense. Is this an admission on your part that God creates evil?
It was your admission early on.
The Hebrew word for "evil" here has a number of semantic uses, one of which is "calamity". Those who think that God creates EVIL are totally out of line. He certainly does create calamity.
Synonyms for evil
adj sinful, immoral



The Scriptural view is that God, with full knowledge of how all of His creatures choose, allows them to choose evil. And reap the consequences thereof.
That is one view based on personal opinion arrived at from reading the scriptures first.
One could not choose evil if evil was not created as that antithesis of righteousness or good.
An odd notion that a omni-benevolent God would allow people to choose evil and therein bear the consequences he has established by his law for that choice.


Yes, I know. That is what defeats the teachings that God is not, contrary to what he has said in his word, creator of the darkness and the light, the evil (calamity) and the good.



Regardless, to believe that God creates evil is nonsense, as Scripture is quite clear about God's view of sin.
God created laws of nature.
 
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FreeGrace2

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God is the source of all things that exist. Past, present, future.
Nonsense. Such a statement includes sin, of which God is NOT the source.

All things that occur are according to his will.
Some do not understand God's permissive will.

It was your admission early on.
More nonsense. This was my question: "Is this an admission on your part that God creates evil?" Please provide the post # where I've ever admitted that God creates evil? Or issue an apology for your error.
 
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Lazy_Proverb

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Nonsense. Such a statement includes sin, of which God is NOT the source.


Some do not understand God's permissive will.
Have a blessed day. :)

More nonsense. This was my question: "Is this an admission on your part that God creates evil?" Please provide the post # where I've ever admitted that God creates evil? Or issue an apology for your error.
[/QUOTE] Have a blessed day. :)
 
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Butch5

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Really? How about Romans 9? Or Ephesians 1? Or Romans 8? Or John 17? Or John 6?

Need I go on?

What about them?I'm familiar with them, they don't support Calvinism. If you believe they support Calvinism I would submit that you're misunderstanding them. However, if you would elaborate as to your understanding of them we can discuss them.
 
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SinnerInTheHands

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What about them?I'm familiar with them, they don't support Calvinism. If you believe they support Calvinism I would submit that you're misunderstanding them. However, if you would elaborate as to your understanding of them we can discuss them.

Why is Romans 9 Calvinist?

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”" [Romans 9:3-29]

Within this we have double predestination, unconditional election, and total depravity. You're telling me it's not Calvinist?
 
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Butch5

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Why is Romans 9 Calvinist?

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”" [Romans 9:3-29]

Within this we have double predestination, unconditional election, and total depravity. You're telling me it's not Calvinist?


That's quite a stretch! Did you take note of the first verses you posted?

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever.

The subject here is Israel. If we follow What he writes we find that Paul began to address the Jewish believers in the church at Rome all the way back in chapter 2. He continues to address them all the way through chapter 11. In order to understand this passage one needs to know what the promises were.

However, there's nothing here saying that God chose to save one person and not another. The choosing being done is in regard to the promises that he wrote of. Saying "not of works" equates to total depravity is a huge leap of logic a non sequitur.

You see, you didn't show where Scripture teaches you doctrine, you've simply posted a passage from which you've inferred you doctrine. This is actually the fallacy of begging the question. You've assumed you premise in your conclusion.

If you'd like to break this down we can look at it more closely and in context to see what is really being addressed. I would suggest we start with the promises since that is what Paul addressed.
 
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rnmomof7

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Nonsense. Such a statement includes sin, of which God is NOT the source.


Some do not understand God's permissive will.


More nonsense. This was my question: "Is this an admission on your part that God creates evil?" Please provide the post # where I've ever admitted that God creates evil? Or issue an apology for your error

Define Evil


Where did evil come from?
As posted earlier:

1] Christ's death is set forth within Scripture as what accomplished salvation, rather than what made salvation possible.

"God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life." [Romans 5:8-10]

"All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." [2 Corinthians 5:18-19]

"By abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." [Ephesians 2:15-16]

"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him." [Colossians 1:21-22]

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us." [Galatians 3:13]

"Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works." [Titus 2:14]

"He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." [Hebrews 9:12]

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." [Luke 19:10]

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." [1 Timothy 1:15]
2] Jesus Christ was sent into the world to save only those the Father had given Him.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise Him up on the last day." [John 6:37-40]

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." [John 10:14-18]

"So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." [John 10:24-29]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him." [Ephesians 1:3-4]

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace." [Ephesians 1:7]

"In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." [Ephesians 1:13]

3] Christ's work as high priest/intercessor was intended for the specific people [the Elect] the Father had given Him, rather than the entire world.

"When Jesus had spoken these words, He lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given Him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.'" [John 17:1-11]

"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word." [John 17:20]

"Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." [John 17:24-26]

"Therefore He had to be made like His brothers in every respect, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." [Hebrews 2:17]

"Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession." [Hebrews 3:1]

"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]

4] Christ's gift of salvation was intended for the specific people [the Elect] the Father had given Him, rather than the entire world.

"She will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." [Matthew 1:21]

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." [John 10:11]

"Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." [John 10:15]

"But you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." [John 10:26]

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." [Acts 20:28]

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." [Ephesians 5:25-27]

"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised - who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." [Romans 8:32-34]

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." [John 15:13]

"Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." [Matthew 20:28]

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." [Matthew 26:28]

"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." [Acts 20:28]

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." [Ephesians 5:25-27]

"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised - who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." [Romans 8:32-34]

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." [John 15:13]

"Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." [Matthew 20:28]

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." [Matthew 26:28]

"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]
The temptation to Eve was "You shall be as gods"
That desire for each man to be God continues ...so man must be smart enough, holy enough, clever enough to "choose Christ" so that he has something to be proud of before God...
The Hebrew word for "evil" here has a number of semantic uses, one of which is "calamity". Those who think that God creates EVIL are totally out of line. He certainly does create calamity.
That's quite a stretch! Did you take note of the first verses you posted?

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever.

The subject here is Israel. If we follow What he writes we find that Paul began to address the Jewish believers in the church at Rome all the way back in chapter 2. He continues to address them all the way through chapter 11. In order to understand this passage one needs to know what the promises were.

However, there's nothing here saying that God chose to save one person and not another. The choosing being done is in regard to the promises that he wrote of. Saying "not of works" equates to total depravity is a huge leap of logic a non sequitur.

You see, you didn't show where Scripture teaches you doctrine, you've simply posted a passage from which you've inferred you doctrine. This is actually the fallacy of begging the question. You've assumed you premise in your conclusion.

If you'd like to break this down we can look at it more closely and in context to see what is really being addressed. I would suggest we start with the promises since that is what Paul addressed.



That letter was written to the church at Rome.. it was a gentile church not a Jewish church... Remember the Jewish Diaspora ???

Jews were scattered abroad ...

Although Paul preached to the Jews when he could..his ministry , as given to him by God was missionary to the gentiles..[/QUOTE]
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Such a statement includes sin, of which God is NOT the source.

Some do not understand God's permissive will.

More nonsense. This was my question: "Is this an admission on your part that God creates evil?" Please provide the post # where I've ever admitted that God creates evil? Or issue an apology for your error

Define Evil

Where did evil come from?"
That letter was written to the church at Rome.. it was a gentile church not a Jewish church... Remember the Jewish Diaspora ???

Jews were scattered abroad ...

Although Paul preached to the Jews when he could..his ministry , as given to him by God was missionary to the gentiles..
How does any of this relate to what I had posted, which you've commented on??
 
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SinnerInTheHands

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That's quite a stretch! Did you take note of the first verses you posted?

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever.

The subject here is Israel. If we follow What he writes we find that Paul began to address the Jewish believers in the church at Rome all the way back in chapter 2. He continues to address them all the way through chapter 11. In order to understand this passage one needs to know what the promises were.

However, there's nothing here saying that God chose to save one person and not another. The choosing being done is in regard to the promises that he wrote of. Saying "not of works" equates to total depravity is a huge leap of logic a non sequitur.

You see, you didn't show where Scripture teaches you doctrine, you've simply posted a passage from which you've inferred you doctrine. This is actually the fallacy of begging the question. You've assumed you premise in your conclusion.

If you'd like to break this down we can look at it more closely and in context to see what is really being addressed. I would suggest we start with the promises since that is what Paul addressed.

A] This is not written to the Jews, but to the church in Rome. The Romans were gentiles.

B] I think you forgot about "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." [Romans 9:7-8] when claiming that this was about the Jews and no one else.

C] Nothing about double predestination? "Our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [Romans 9:10-14]. Or how about: "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." [Romans 9:18]. Or even: "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" [Romans 9:21-24].

D] Begging the question? You're the one whose inferring. These are clear cut scriptural examples, and because you have your own foot in your mouth you're complaining about how they couldn't possibly be true because you disagree with them.
 
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SinnerInTheHands

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So how about Ephesians 1? Or, as I like to call it, predestination central:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." [Ephesians 1:3-14 ESV]

Romans 8? Both predestination and perseverance of the saints:

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." [Romans 8:28-39 ESV]

John 17? Unconditional election and limited atonement:

"When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”" [John 17 ESV]

Or John 6? Both unconditional election and limited atonement:

"When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”" [John 6:60-65]
 
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FreeGrace2

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A] This is not written to the Jews, but to the church in Rome. The Romans were gentiles.
Apparently Romans 2:17-27 was overlooked. v.17 begins the passage: But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God

Paul most certainly did address the Jews among the Gentile believers in Rome.

And why would Paul write this: Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Rom 3:1 Why bother speaking of advantages of being Jewish if he wasn't addressing Jews?
 
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FreeGrace2

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So how about Ephesians 1? Or, as I like to call it, predestination central:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." [Ephesians 1:3-14 ESV]
Please address what the "us" in v.4 were chosen FOR. Specifically. And please answer the question of who the "us" are, as defined in 1:19.

John 17? Unconditional election and limited atonement:
So, Jesus contradicted Himself, huh? In John 10, He said that He would die for THE sheep, and went on to note those who were HIS sheep (Jewish believers), others of HIS sheep (Gentile believers) and those NOT of HIS sheep (unbelievers). He would die for all of THE sheep. So Jn 17 cannot say that He would die only for some, as is being claimed.


John 6? Both unconditional election and limited atonement:
So, Jesus really did contradict Himself, huh? I believe that's quite an odd view.
 
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SinnerInTheHands

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Please address what the "us" in v.4 were chosen FOR. Specifically. And please answer the question of who the "us" are, as defined in 1:19.
The "us" are all Christian believers on Earth. We who believe. The people who have been given faith by God, elected to salvation by His will and not our action.
So, Jesus contradicted Himself, huh? In John 10, He said that He would die for THE sheep, and went on to note those who were HIS sheep (Jewish believers), others of HIS sheep (Gentile believers) and those NOT of HIS sheep (unbelievers). He would die for all of THE sheep. So Jn 17 cannot say that He would die only for some, as is being claimed.
He never says he will die for those not of his sheep. This phrasing appears nowhere in John 10. His sheep are all believers: those elected before the world began by God's will to have faith and be sanctified by the life-giving blood of Christ.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The "us" are all Christian believers on Earth. We who believe. The people who have been given faith by God, elected to salvation by His will and not our action.
Yes, the "us" are believers. Which is who God chose, in v.4. iow, He chose believers. And for what? Not salvation, since believers are already saved. That's what believers are; saved. So v.4 says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless. That's not being chosen for salvation. The election here is about lifestyle. We see the same principle in these verses:
Col 1:22 - yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach This verse isn't about salvation but being presented before Him holy and blameless.

Eph 5:27 - that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. This is what the church (saved people) are supposed to be: holy and blameless.

1 Thess 3:13 - so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Again, being blameless and holy is not about getting saved.

He never says he will die for those not of his sheep.
Excuse me, but He very clearly stated that He would die for THE sheep. Not once did He say He would die only for HIS sheep, or even His sheep, even without the "only" or "just". He was clear: he would die for THE sheep, and He made it clear from John 10:7-9 what He meant by THE sheep.

"7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

v.7 establishes that He is the Savior of THE sheep, the door by which anyone and everyone is saved.
v.8 establishes the fact of false prophets/saviors who came before Him.
v.9 establishes the fact that only those sheep who "enter through Me" (belief in Christ) will be saved.

If my explanation of this passage is incorrect, please show me where and how it is incorrect. I would appreciate it.

This phrasing appears nowhere in John 10.
What does appear is that Jesus twice said He would die for THE sheep. If limited atonement were true, then He would have said that He was going to lay down His life for HIS sheep. But He said THE sheep, while noting there were HIS sheep, and those NOT of HIS sheep.

He died for all sheep. Not just HIS. Unlimited atonement is taught in John 10. Clearly.


His sheep are all believers
That's right; HIS sheep are believers. And He never said He would die for HIS sheep. Twice He said He would die for THE sheep (v.11, 15), clearly indicating that He would die for MORE than HIS sheep (believers). Clearly. This is not
debatable.
 
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Lazy_Proverb

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The "us" are all Christian believers on Earth. We who believe. The people who have been given faith by God, elected to salvation by His will and not our action.
He never says he will die for those not of his sheep. This phrasing appears nowhere in John 10. His sheep are all believers: those elected before the world began by God's will to have faith and be sanctified by the life-giving blood of Christ.
Well stated.
What is very often overlooked by Arminian believers is that the designation of "The Elect" was predestined, preordained, before the world itself was created. God had it in his mind all that was going to be and become of the world before it was made.
Numerous scriptures report of this. And being God is omniscient, eternally knowledgable, he foreknows all that transpires and is to transpire and eternally within the domain under his control. Which is all the world and all people on its surface. Forever.

Therefore, every word Jesus spoke concerning his coming to die for the lost sheep, that his sheep know his voice, most obvious scripture being this: no one comes to him unless the father sends (calls) them, all scriptures like unto that, are scriptures that reiterate not only the existence or status of The Elect, which are also repeatedly referred to in scripture, but also reiterate those scriptures that tell us very simply, the world and the lives of all people are preplanned by God himself to transpire as planned and according to his will and for his glory.

That is why free will among those not of the elect has not a thing to do with changing destiny and God's will. One cannot willfully alter God's establishing the elect, those who are called. They cannot choose to save themselves because they cleave to scripture and follow protocol and enter the community of The Elect.
That is partly why scriptures forewarn them that works does not save.
 
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