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The issue is what is predestined. Is it everything, including all mans sin- which makes God the author of evil and man just robot puppets. This is why there is so much contention.
Baptist are a mixed bunch. The Sovereign Grace variety are a minority. Wonder why God predestined that !
As for being bent on free will. This is where Calvinist ( speaking with a broad brush) get it so wrong. Few hold that one can save oneself by free will. The very few that do are generally considered cranks by Methodist and Penties. Baffles me why Calvinist latch on to this false notion.
Hardly so. It was a matter of keeping my remarks in context to those I had addressed to FG2.You said 'choice'. Arrrggh. Blown it.
Have a blessed day.This verse says nothing about salvation. We are predestined ( not all of us, sure) for future adoption. I.e those who believe have a destiny set that is different to those who do not believe.
This is the problem with cherry picking verses. It does nothing for you argument.
I'm glad that this has gotten as far as it has. I hope to respond to each of your arguments point by point over the next few days.
Prove what? I could post the Bible but that wold take quite a few posts. My point was about context. The five points aren't taught anywhere in Scripture. They're supported by proof texts. There are no Scriptures that say man is totally depraved, none that speak of unconditional election, none that speak of limited atonement, none that speak of irresistible grace or perseverance of the saints. All of these doctrines are "INFERRED" from passages of Scriptures then it is claimed that this is what the Bible teaches. Inferences aren't teaching, they're conclusions drawn by a person. Inferences can be correct or incorrect. However, that are not teaching.
You might want to take a look at some other botanicals:
The truth is somewhere in the middle because Calvinism/Augustinianism is one extreme and Pelagianism and Arminianism is the other extreme. Calvinists believe if you are not Calvinist then you must be Arminianist. There is nothing else. I can quote Calvinists, if you like. But, those are belief systems created by men as they extracted from the Bible, extreme interpretations. Below, we will just see what the Bible says.
One Extreme-------------------------->
Pelagianism states that our willing choice is the determining factor in the participation of our salvation. Pelagianism is seen as extremely humanistic and Arminianism is not as extreme in its humanistic factors (meaning what we do) it does not totally effect our salvation. Evangelicalism also tends to focus on our own actions and performance.
<------------------------Other Extreme
Augustinianism and Calvinism is pretty much the reduction of our being in that fallen humanity is deemed depraved (defective) to the point that they are incapable of responding to the Lord's offer of grace. The meaning of grace is misunderstood as divine determinism. This means that God will sovereignly elect/select some for salvation and others for perdition.
<----------------------------------------------------------Balance---------------------------------------------------------------->
There is the Divine initiative and then.................................... there is Man's response.
GRACE .................................................................................................... FAITH
Eph 2:5,8 "for by grace you have been saved..." -------------- Eph 2:8 "...saved through faith"
God divinely and dynamically extends His grace -------------- Faith is our response to the Divine activity of God to us via His Son, Jesus Christ (Jn 1:17) and by Holy Spirit, not only initially but continually, throughout the Christian life. Faith puts us in a position of receiving. Faith enables us to be receptive to the Holy Spirit.
"As many as received Him.." Jn 1:12
Acts 15:11 "through the grace of the Lord Jesus -------------- “believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved” Act 16:31
Christ we shall be saved,"
Titus 2:11 - “the grace of God has appeared --------------------- “salvation through faith in Christ” II Tim. 3:15
bringing salvation to all men.”
II Tim. 1:9 - “saved us according to His own ------------------ “chosen for salvation...through faith in the truth” II Th 2:13
purpose and grace..”
I Pet. 1:10 - “this salvation, the prophets --------------------- “outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls” 1 Pet 1:9
prophesied of the grace to come
The "Finished work" of Jesus Christ which makes salvation available to ALL men is proven a universal objective by the Word of God. No one is elected to perdition.
All the bulleted scriptures are objective, eternal realities whether a person believes or does not believe.
- Jn 3:16 - For God so loved the world (ALL are Loved)
- Eph 1:7 - In whom we have redemption (ALL are Redeemed)
- Jn 1:29 - Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (ALL are Forgiven)
- Rom 5:18,19 - "...so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (ALL are made righteous)
- Rom 5:10,11 - "...we were reconciled to God..." - (ALL have been reconciled)
- Rom 5:18 - "...upon all men unto justification of life." (ALL have been given life)
- Titus 2:11 - "...grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (ALL are saved)
- Eph 1:3 - "who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (ALL are Blessed)
- Jn 12:32 - "...will draw all men unto me." (ALL men drawn to Christ)
The one extreme for the above verses would be Universalism. Everyone is predestined to spend eternity in heaven and this is determined solely by God and not dependent on any human response. Towards this same extreme is Determinist theology that indicates ALL humanity (smaller part) is included in the life and ministry of Jesus' humanity which was of a vicarious nature in that all human beings will be incorporated into Him forever and ever.
More on Calvinism
"Particularism" in the processes of salvation is the mark of Calvinism. Particularism deals not generally with mankind at large, but particularly with the individuals who are actually saved. If you deny Particularism you are denying the supernaturalism of salvation, that is, Christianity itself. It is logically the total rejection of Christianity. "ALL qualified", actually means only God's predestined elect. Salvation is not an option for the non-elect.
THE BALANCE
1. Some reject God's grace and do not receive the living Lord Jesus.
2. Human beings have freedom of choice, and the freedom of choice that we are born with has no merit in and of itself regarding automatic eternal blessings.
3. Faith is never a work in the New Testament and neither is it a gift of God. "A measure of faith", has been given to all men.
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Faith is a response on our part to receive what God is giving us. Faith receives God's divine activity.
4. Either-or - Some will receive Jesus, and some will reject Jesus.
Calvinism pretty much denys that an individual is able to respond in faith to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Evangelicals, on the other hand have a different view of salvation. An individual "gets saved" by their personal choice to receive Jesus, but in saying this to them, they are subtly communicating that men are contributing to their salvation by their own faith-action of assent to facts, raising your hand, walking the aisle and getting your "ticket punched". It could also be reciting a creed, getting baptized, joining a religious organization, promising to keep the Church's rules, going to catechism, etc., etc. None of these things produce regeneration and if you are not regenerated (converted) you are not saved according to the Bible.
Acts 16:30,31 - “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”
Eph. 2:8,9 - “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”
Rom. 10:8-10 - “...confess with mouth, believe in heart, you will be saved.”
I Cor. 1:21 - “God was well- pleased to save those who believe”
Rom. 5:10 - “...saved by His life”
Regeneration - or conversion is a defining moment in one's life. It is radical!! Not a ceremony or ritual. One is going from spiritual death to spiritual life. This is not done by rituals, reciting of creeds, church membership classes, baptism, et al.
Matt. 18:3 - “Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Jn. 3:3,7 - “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
I Pt. 1:3 - “...begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"
Acts 26:18 - “To open their eyes, and to turn them (convert) from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God,"Titus 3:5 - “...saved us by the washing of regeneration...”
The result of conversion is Union with Christ.
II Pt. 1:4 - “partakers of the divine nature”
I Cor. 6:17 - “he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.”
Heb. 3:14 - “partakers of Christ”
Heb. 6:4 - “partakers of the Holy Spirit”
Extremes of Union with Christ are mysticism, pantheism, panentheism, monistic unification of Christ and the Christian to the point where they become one and there is no distinction between them. Let's talk about Union with Christ, later.
I have had to readjust my thinking quite a bit through the years to keep from falling off into the ditch of "isms" rather than taking into account the "full counsel of God". You can see that you really do not need any "isms", and the Word of God and the Spirit of God seem to do just fine.
You don't have to subscribe to Arminianism, Calvinism, Methodism, Lutheranism, Catholicism, etc, etc. You just need to be Christocentric, because that is what the Word of God is.
From Genesis to Revelation, it is the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Could you start with addressing the 3 requests stated several times in the posts of FreeGrace2?I'm glad that this has gotten as far as it has. I hope to respond to each of your arguments point by point over the next few days.
As posted earlier:Please direct me to any verse that clearly indicates that Christ did not die for everyone in humanity.
Once again, as posted earlier:Please direct me to any verse that clearly indicates that God chooses who will believe.
Finally, as posted earlier:Please direct me to any verse that clearly indicates that all believers will persevere in the faith to the end of their life.
DT 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." [John 6:44]choose life, so that you and your children may live
JOS 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then
choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
"None is righteous, no, not one. no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." [Romans 3:10-12]ISA 56:4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil." [Jeremiah 13:23]PS 34:11 Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. 12 Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days, 13 keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies. 14 Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.
"And He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'" [John 6:55]EZE 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
MK 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
"Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit." [1 Corinthians 12:3]
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
JN 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
REV 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." [John 6:44]REV 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Isa 1:18-20 shows that God allows free will.Calvin believed that God cannot be betrayed by another's free will because He is the omnipotent, omniscient Creator; that nothing transcends God's will.
The entire basis of Calvinism is built on that.
Maybe because it is the only view of free will that they can attack.As for being bent on free will. This is where Calvinist ( speaking with a broad brush) get it so wrong. Few hold that one can save oneself by free will. The very few that do are generally considered cranks by Methodist and Penties. Baffles me why Calvinist latch on to this false notion.
The Hebrew word for "evil" here has a number of semantic uses, one of which is "calamity". Those who think that God creates EVIL are totally out of line. He certainly does create calamity.~Isaiah 45:7~
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
It's not like the scriptures do not outright declare such preeminence as Calvin proposed.
As posted earlier:
1] Christ's death is set forth within Scripture as what accomplished salvation, rather than what made salvation possible.
"God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life." [Romans 5:8-10]
"All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." [2 Corinthians 5:18-19]
"By abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." [Ephesians 2:15-16]
"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him." [Colossians 1:21-22]
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us." [Galatians 3:13]
"Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works." [Titus 2:14]
"He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." [Hebrews 9:12]
"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." [Luke 19:10]
"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." [1 Timothy 1:15]
2] Jesus Christ was sent into the world to save only those the Father had given Him.
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise Him up on the last day." [John 6:37-40]
"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." [John 10:14-18]
"So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." [John 10:24-29]
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him." [Ephesians 1:3-4]
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace." [Ephesians 1:7]
"In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." [Ephesians 1:13]
Yet, the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. Were the Samaritans Calvinists?3] Christ's work as high priest/intercessor was intended for the specific people [the Elect] the Father had given Him, rather than the entire world.
4] Christ's gift of salvation was intended for the specific people [the Elect] the Father had given Him, rather than the entire world.
"She will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." [Matthew 1:21]
In Jn 10, Jesus describes 3 types of sheep:"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." [John 10:11]
Right. #2"Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." [John 10:15]
Unbelievers. But the verse doesn't say that He wouldn't die for them. He SAID He would die for THE sheep."But you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." [John 10:26]
This verse does not preclude His death for all."Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." [Acts 20:28]
Same as Acts 20:28"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." [Ephesians 5:25-27]
Where does this passage teach that He died only for some?"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised - who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." [Romans 8:32-34]
What about these verses?"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." [John 15:13]
"Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." [
Ditto."For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." [Matthew 26:28]
Ditto."So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]
"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." [Acts 20:28]
No teaching that He died ONLY for the flock.
Again, no teaching that He died ONLY for the flock."Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." [Ephesians 5:25-27]
Neither of these verses teaches that He died ONLY for His friends, or the elect."He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised - who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." [Romans 8:32-34]
"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." [John 15:13]
The masses."Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." [Matthew 20:28]
"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." [Matthew 26:28]
"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]
The masses.
This post fails to support the claims of Calvinism. None of the verses teaches that Christ's death was exclusionary, and verses were given that teach that His death was inclusionary.
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