Does the Bible recommend how world governments should deal with sin?

[R7-12]

Human trafficking is the trade of humans for the purpose of forced labour, sexual slavery, or commercial sexual exploitation for the trafficker or others. This may encompass providing a spouse in the context of forced marriage, or the extraction of organs or tissues, including for surrogacy and ova removal (Human trafficking - Wikipedia).

This is kidnapping, slavery, and theft of one’s freedom.

 

[Whyayeman]

It is just not specifically Biblical. I know, you can read everything into the Bible you need. Most people in the world do not share your faith in the Bible's authority, not even most Christians.

That is why my answer to the original post is: No.

 

[Jay Sea]

I don't think God supports the modern day view that governments and politicians exist so that people never need to watch the news, never need pay attention to politics or take any personal initiative at all in critical topics that directly affect them.

The private sector is the best solver of problems. Almost all of our new inventions, innovations and progress comes from inventors and capitalists like Elon Musk.

Governments usually don't solve problems. If anything they usually make them worse.

Christians today can't cite exactly how things like the criminal judificial system are broken. Which leaves them powerless to ever fix or improve the current judificial system. Our lack of knowledge and information makes us powerless in a way that can't be overcome with prayer. While God answers prayers, they can only be answered if an effort is made on our part to do as much to fix things as we can. And that effort is simply never made when it comes to be informed and knowledgeable on how our society and state are broken.

It is the duty of citizens to think on such matters and criticise (ie consider both sides of argument) and speak up through public comment or through some representative body. As for the private sector it is no different from a government body in that it needs to be held to account for it's actions by citizens in whose country they operate. Judging by some articles I have read about corruption perpetrated by government bodies and in conjunction with private sector citizens need to step up and support whistle-blowers. After all it is the citizens who end up the victims.
In LOve
Jay Sea

 

[Tom 1]

People are encouraged to ignore politics and never pay attention to the news. They say that only depressing things are on the news, so people should never watch it. Which guarantees people never being educated or informed on anything.

Do you mean that is something that happens in churches?

 

[Tom 1]

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm" (Jn. 18:36).

This one verse contradicts what you appear to be saying in the rest of your post.

Are you saying you think that Christians are sojourners in a universal Israel, or that non-believers are sojourners in a global church? If not, what is it you want to say with the other scriptures quoted?

 

[Tom 1]

People trafficking is a form of kidnapping, slavery, and stealing, since the victim’s freedoms (among other things), is taken from them.

In fact, all of the crimes/offenses you mentioned are covered by various specific and general principles, including, “love your neighbor as yourself.” BTW, “your neighbor” is everyone other than yourself.

Is pedophilia treating a child with love and care? Defrauding others through financial crimes – is that loving your neighbor? Slavery, people trafficking, adultery? It doesn’t require a master's degree in logic or philosophy to understand and apply it accordingly.

Also, the Bible does not seek to provide a framework of law that is deemed acceptable by a modern, complicated society. It deals with truth and equity.

This world’s societies, and any individual, is free to reject the law of God – if that’s their choice.

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest (Eph. 2:3).

For the mind of the flesh (the human mind) is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so (Rom. 8:7; personal note added in parenthesis).

There is a whole lot of ground between saying 'don't do this' or 'this is wrong' and the actual application of law in secular societies. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

 

[1rreducibly Complex]

Do you mean that is something that happens in churches?

Some churches, definitely.

In the way that hollywood films are being dumbed down.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In the way that hollywood films are being dumbed down.

As someone who has watched a lot of movies, old movies, new movies, etc. I find this statement strange.

Hollywood has always made dumb movies.
Hollywood has also made some very good, smart movies.

The "things are worse now than they were back in my day" sentiment is universal.

"[Young people] are high-minded because they have not yet been humbled by life, nor have they experienced the force of circumstances. ... They think they know everything, and are always quite sure about it." - Aristotle

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jayem]

None of the nations in this world will accept a government that tries to correctly govern according to God's Law/Word until Christ establishes his authority upon his return (Isa. 2:3; cf. Mic. 4:2).

That’s a faith-based speculation, which many of us don’t share. But as of now, I agree it would be impossible to establish Biblical law exclusively in a modern society. Even among sincere believers, there can be very different opinions regarding what God’s word actually means. In the US, the Bible was used to support slavery and to oppose it. At the same time. Not to mention that laws mandating racial segregation and criminalizing interracial marriage were defended as Biblical. If the Bible is so clear and unambiguous, why has Christianity splintered into hundreds, if not thousands, of sects and denominations? (Some with major doctrinal differences, i.e., the LDS church.) Heck, it’s challenging enough to determine if civil laws are in accord with the Constitution. In an ethnically, religiously, and culturally diverse 21st century nation, it would be utter lunacy to base secular laws on one ancient religious scripture.

 

[ViaCrucis]

None of the nations in this world will accept a government that tries to correctly govern according to God's Law/Word until Christ establishes his authority upon his return (Isa. 2:3; cf. Mic. 4:2).

At the Parousia governments will cease,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." - Revelation 11:5

The eternal reign of Christ, by His dominion and authority which He has received as Lord and King Messiah when He was taken up before the Ancient of Days (Daniel 7:13-14, Matthew 28:18), shall be made fully present on the earth in the Age to Come, when God makes all things new.

In that Day wolf shall lay with lamb, lion shall eat straw with the ox, and there will be no sword, spear, or war.

The Law exists because of sin (see Romans ch. 7); and governments exist to curb social evil for the purpose of relative peace and societal security (Romans 13:1-4). In that Day those things will no longer be part of the human condition, all creation having been fully and freely liberated from the chains of death, in the resurrection of the dead and the restoration of all things (Romans 8:18-25).

On the Day when God is all in all (1 Corinthians 15:20-28), there is only that joy, peace, and true justice that comes from all creation reconciled together with God in her midst, filling and healing all things (Revelation 21:1-6, 22:1-5).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[R7-12]

This one verse contradicts what you appear to be saying in the rest of your post.

Are you saying you think that Christians are sojourners in a universal Israel, or that non-believers are sojourners in a global church? If not, what is it you want to say with the other scriptures quoted?

No, it’s not a contradiction.

The physical nation of Israel willingly entered into a binding covenant with God that included His Law and Commandments. In it, He declared that this same law, “shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you” (Ex 12:49). In other words, His Law applied equally to all people in Israel, whether they were Israelites or not.

Jesus Christ also lived according to the Law and Commandments of his God and Father and declared, “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished" (Mt. 5:18). So for those who claim to follow God, they cannot ignore that Jesus Christ lived by and fully endorsed God's law and that all believers live by God’s law (cf. Mt. 4:4).

That same law will be in force when Christ returns and all the nations will be judged, “For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from (spiritual) Jerusalem” (Isa. 2:3; note added in parentheses)

Thus, the Bible only has one standard by which all judgments are correctly and equitably rendered. However, this standard is based upon spiritual principles, not physical human reasoning.

My inclusion of Jn. 18:36 where Christ said, “My kingdom is not of this world”, was also to point out that God’s system doesn’t originate in the physical realm, thus, physical mankind is not compatible with a spiritual system. The Bible shows very clearly that human beings require the intervention and participation of God’s Holy Spirit within the individual in order for that person to understand and accept, and thus, apply God’s system in their life (Ac. 5:32; Rom. 8:7-8; 1Jn. 3:24). Consequently, the whole of physical mankind will never accept any form of God’s system in this world, unless and until Christ returns and establishes God's kingdom.

So, even though the Bible clearly indicates what kind of system every human being should adopt in their personal lives, no nation, and certainly not the whole world, will ever agree to adopt God’s system.

 

[R7-12]

There is a whole lot of ground between saying 'don't do this' or 'this is wrong' and the actual application of law in secular societies. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Agreed, and in scripture, God essentially says the same thing.

 

[R7-12]

None of the nations in this world will accept a government that tries to correctly govern according to God's Law/Word until Christ establishes his authority upon his return (Isa. 2:3; cf. Mic. 4:2).

That’s a faith-based speculation, which many of us don’t share. But as of now, I agree it would be impossible to establish Biblical law exclusively in a modern society. Even among sincere believers, there can be very different opinions regarding what God’s word actually means. In the US, the Bible was used to support slavery and to oppose it. At the same time. Not to mention that laws mandating racial segregation and criminalizing interracial marriage were defended as Biblical. If the Bible is so clear and unambiguous, why has Christianity splintered into hundreds, if not thousands, of sects and denominations? (Some with major doctrinal differences, i.e., the LDS church.) Heck, it’s challenging enough to determine if civil laws are in accord with the Constitution. In an ethnically, religiously, and culturally diverse 21st century nation, it would be utter lunacy to base secular laws on one ancient religious scripture.

Even the ancient nation of Israel, who willingly accepted to obey God’s First Covenant, ultimately did not continue in it which would have made it possible to “correctly govern according to God's Law/Word” so it’s really not speculation at all.

There are indeed literally tens of thousands of Christians denominations and groups and none of them understand the Bible in the same way. However, perhaps you would agree that the true “Body of Christ” wherever and whatever it is, does somehow exist and is not divided or splintered (in understanding). If this is true, then we have to accept that they are doing something different than all the other so-called “Christian” groups who can’t agree.

I also agree that modern culture would consider it lunacy to base their laws on God’s written Word, That’s why I said that I think God’s Law and Commandments will not be voluntarily accepted by human beings based upon their own reasoning.

 

[R7-12]

At the Parousia governments will cease,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." - Revelation 11:5

The eternal reign of Christ, by His dominion and authority which He has received as Lord and King Messiah when He was taken up before the Ancient of Days (Daniel 7:13-14, Matthew 28:18), shall be made fully present on the earth in the Age to Come, when God makes all things new.

In that Day wolf shall lay with lamb, lion shall eat straw with the ox, and there will be no sword, spear, or war.

The Law exists because of sin (see Romans ch. 7); and governments exist to curb social evil for the purpose of relative peace and societal security (Romans 13:1-4). In that Day those things will no longer be part of the human condition, all creation having been fully and freely liberated from the chains of death, in the resurrection of the dead and the restoration of all things (Romans 8:18-25).

On the Day when God is all in all (1 Corinthians 15:20-28), there is only that joy, peace, and true justice that comes from all creation reconciled together with God in her midst, filling and healing all things (Revelation 21:1-6, 22:1-5).

Although I agree with much of what you wrote, there is one point that requires some clarification.

The Law exists because of sin (see Romans ch. 7)

The law does not exist because of sin. It's like saying, "because someone killed another human being we have determined after the fact that it is unlawful."

God is all-knowing - He knows the beginning from the end. He did not have to wait and see what might happen before deciding to develop a law and then decide what sin is.

The law that was added involved the animal sacrificial ordinances (this is not easily identified by most). THE law - as in the spiritual legislation from God is spiritual in nature and has always existed as the Apostle Paul rightly pointed out, "The law IS spiritual" (Rom. 7:14b; cf. Mt. 5:20-22; 1Cor. 10:3-4; Jas. 1:25; 2:8).

The law of God defines what sin is,
"Sin is the transgression of the law" (1Jn. 3:4b).

Thus, the law had to exist prior to sin, otherwise, it's not possible to commit sin,

'What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet”' (Rom. 7:7).

The Adversary, who was the very first being to commit sin in his rebellion against God, could not have sinned if the Law of God did not yet exist.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Although I agree with much of what you wrote, there is one point that requires some clarification.

The law does not exist because of sin. It's like saying, "because someone killed another human being we have determined after the fact that it is unlawful."

God is all-knowing - He knows the beginning from the end. He did not have to wait and see what might happen before deciding to develop a law and then decide what sin is.

The law that was added involved the animal sacrificial ordinances (this is not easily identified by most). THE law - as in the spiritual legislation from God is spiritual in nature and has always existed as the Apostle Paul rightly pointed out, "The law IS spiritual" (Rom. 7:14b; cf. Mt. 5:20-22; 1Cor. 10:3-4; Jas. 1:25; 2:8).

The law of God defines what sin is,
"Sin is the transgression of the law" (1Jn. 3:4b).

Thus, the law had to exist prior to sin, otherwise, it's not possible to commit sin,

'What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet”' (Rom. 7:7).

The Adversary, who was the very first being to commit sin in his rebellion against God, could not have sinned if the Law of God did not yet exist.

I feel like this could be a conversation that could go into any number of directions. So I think I'll simply try and explain where I'm coming from.

In the Reformation the Evangelical fathers articulated three "Uses of the Law" as part of the Dichotomy of Law and Gospel (the radical distinction between Law and Gospel). The Three Uses of the Law are as follows:

1) The Law curbs evil, to command what is right and to forbid what is wrong.

2) The Law is a mirror that exposes our actions as unjust, the Law says "Do this" and we don't do it. The Law in this way reveals us to be sinners, and therefore condemns us as such--as those who do what is unjust rather than what is just. We don't love our neighbor as we should.

3) The Law provides the regulative principle for how the people of God ought to conduct themselves and live--we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.

The imperative to love our neighbor, to love one another, to love the world of God's creation will never cease--this will be the way of things in the Age to Come, because we actually will be loving as we ought to love.

But without sin the Law's "power" as a harsh, burdening power won't exist.

God is not going to rule the Age to Come by the imposition of harsh commandments, but by living and dwelling the midst of the world in fullness. We will dwell in perfect love, free and generous without any force.

So if one understands the continuance of God's law in the future age as simply the fullness of love expressed in the harmony of God and His creation, then that's fine.

However if we are imagining the Age to Come to be a kind of theocratic "government" in which laws exist in a top-to-bottom hierarchy--that is significantly problematic as it is contrary to what Christ Himself has taught us about God's way of being king.

God's decree is that we live and love.

And therefore, "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." (1 Corinthians 15:56), since "It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure." (Romans 7:13)

But without the old Adam, without sin no longer dwelling in our members, what is the Law? The answer I believe is as I've said: That we live and love, enjoying God and all creation together.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[R7-12]

I appreciate you clarifying your personal position on the subject. It’s not my intention to change your or anyone’s beliefs.

 

[Godwilling]

it is funny nobody brought up that God had Moses write up a government. I am not certain what type of government it was. Maybe someone more knowledgeable in that area would know. But according to the Bible we will be governed in a similar way after the end times.

GOD BLESS

 

[Hazelelponi]

So the question is: If Christians were given free rein to create a criminal judicial system, are there guidelines in the Bible for that?

I will start out by saying that yes, there should be separation of church and state. However, with that being said, is there anything in the Bible that recommends how the criminal justice system should be run?

My main point would be that the old testament prescribes punitive punishment with no regard for rehabilitation, while Christ has fulfilled the law in the new.

Christ fulfilled the law in that He fulfilled the requirements of the law perfectly in His life, and in His own right was the one seed who inherited all things as as result, and thereby became the Corporate Head by which under the New Covenant all who believe in Him are saved.

He set us free from the bondage of sin. But that doesn't mean able to sin all we like. For us, sin is in the moral laws of God. Some of which are man facing and others are God facing. As people in Covenant with God, these laws still must be obeyed...

If you were to say there is a law then, it would be in the man facing laws. And Scripture in the New Covenant does outline governments duties, in that they are to provide God's people with an environment of peace and relative safety in which to live, without over stepping the boundaries which they have under God.

To be honest, the U.S. constitution is the closest we have to a document of this type by Protestants. It outlines what people's natural rights are under God, and how government should preserve those rights, as well as the duties of a just government under God ect ect.

The problem is for it to continue, it needs a population that believes in God. For instance natural rights - unsaved man believe rights flow from government to man, it is only saved man who believes rights flow from God to man and it's government's duty to preserve and protect those rights from being trampled on by men.

The list can go on, but the U.S. constitution is the best we have as far as a protestant example of Christian government.

 

[ViaCrucis]

it is funny nobody brought up that God had Moses write up a government. I am not certain what type of government it was. Maybe someone more knowledgeable in that area would know. But according to the Bible we will be governed in a similar way after the end times.

GOD BLESS

The Bible doesn't say that. The Christian view--the view of the New Testament--is that Torah was given to the ancient Jews as part of their unique Covenant with God, and that this Covenant's ultimate purpose was to point beyond itself toward the bigger reality of Jesus as the fulfillment of the promises of God. According to the anonymous author of the Epistle to the Hebrews that the Prophet Jeremiah in speaking of a time when God would make a new covenant (which according to Jesus, in His own words, is established in and through Him) indicates that the old covenant is no longer. New wine, says Jesus, requires new wineskins; as old wineskins would burst if filled with new wine.

As far as what kind of government God called ancient Israel to be, God called Israel to be a theocratic welfare state. Theocratic because God Himself was supposed to be the King of Israel (the establishment of the Monarchy was the result of the people wishing to be like other nations), and the nation was to be a nation that took care of its poor, hungry, and sojourners.

Israel was to be a nation where God was king, but which became a monarchy due to the stubbornness of the people. The nation was to be a welfare state, a place of promise, hope, and social uplift among the nations; but which as we read the writings of the Prophets learn failed in this regard, often because of that very same monarchy and having a ruling class that oppressed and exploited the poor and vulnerable.

And so Jesus tells us about what it means for God to truly be king. That's why He came preaching the good news of the kingdom of God, the good news of God-as-king. Ancient Israel was, in the Christian understanding, to be the shadow and type of what God's kingdom would be: the reality of God-as-king and a devoted people to be a shining example among the nations of how when God is king the captives are set free, the poor are lifted up, the hungry are fed, and all debts are canceled (see Jesus' "mission statement" in the 4th chapter of the Gospel of Luke when He quotes the Prophet Isaiah, and also the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6 and Luke 11).

The ancient "earthly" systems--a Tabernacle, animal sacrifices, a priesthood, etc--in the Christian understanding, are shadows that pointed toward the greater reality of Christ, and a greater more universal conception of Israel from being a geographical and ethnic people to encompassing all nations, and the whole of creation. It is this which the Prophets speak of when they talk about the nations coming to Mt. Zion, and when the lion shall eat straw like an ox, and that justice shall flow down like a river. Which is why the Christian Church believes and confesses that Jesus is the King Messiah who was crucified, who rose from the dead, ascended to the right hand of the Father, and is coming again. That at, long last, "the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of God as the waters cover the seas" (Habakkuk 2:14) and "justice [rolls] down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream" (Amos 5:24).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Strathos]

If you think that the Mosaic laws should still apply to governments today, does that mean you want to outlaw non-Kosher food?