Does Romans 11:16-22 challenge Calvinism?

Kilk1 said:

Hello! I'm studying the Calvinism debate and looking at passages on both sides. The current passage I'm looking at is one that currently seems to go against Calvinism: Romans 11:16-22. I could be wrong; if so, could you answer the following questions of mine?

1. Are the branches individuals or groups?
2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?
3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?
4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?
5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Thanks in advanced,
Kilk

Click to expand...

Mercy74 said:

We must read these scriptures with the mind of Christ. The grafting of the gentiles is only a "mental connection" with Israel. This is why the gentiles stand by faith; the Israelites were broken off because of unbelief. The gentiles were grafted in because they believed the truth. All of Israel were not broken off, they are the natural branches, only the dead ones on the ground that don't bear fruit are disconnected. The gentiles are grafted in among them since the truth was sent through those dead branches broken off of the gentiles from the cultivated tree which are still holy.

Click to expand...

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I believe the spiritual reality is much much more real and more important , from the Father in Heaven, than the "mental" aspects, if there are any.

Yes, the gentiles "stand by faith", if they are born again. Just like the Israelites.

Most are not , so that must be realized, remembered, when looking at things in the world and wondering why there is so much wickedness in high and low places, everywhere.

Click to expand...

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I think more important: Abraham at the time was the one man called by Yahuweh, chosen, and set apart for Yahuweh. Let's not derail the thread further this way though, as Abraham had nothing to do with Calvinism at all.

Click to expand...

klutedavid said:

Hello Kilk1.

1 Are the branches individuals or groups?

The branches are two nations; the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.

2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?
Two olive trees, one cultivated olive tree and one wild olive tree. The nation of Israel and the nation of the Gentiles; Gentile means not Jewish.

The root is Christ and the branches in an olive tree are attached to the root of the olive tree. The branches are not attached to a tree trunk on an olive tree.

3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?

There are two answers to this question and at two levels.

The first is that the Jews represent the branches in the cultivated olive tree and this was a result of God's choice. That is God chose the nation of Israel and it is was therefore His will that Israel was a cultivated olive tree. So at one level a Gentile can convert to Judaism and therefore be a member of the cultivated olive tree.

The second level is that Gentiles who convert to a belief in Jesus Christ are grafted into the root. Hence, the Gentiles become a cultivated branch by virtue of being attached to the root.


4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?

Yes, the text specifies that branches were cut off. Paul also warns the Gentiles that they can be severed for unbelief.

5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Yes, severed branches can in fact be grafted back into the root. Paul states this to be true.

Romans 11:23
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

There are two levels in the text and for this reason the text is difficult to understand.

Click to expand...

Danthemailman said:

I often hear those in the NOSAS camp interpret Romans 11:16-22 to mean that saved individuals can lose their salvation. I would like to hear how those in the OSAS camp interpret Romans 11:16-22.

Click to expand...

Mercy74 said:

Those gentiles were gathered among those dead branches that were broken off the cultivated tree. Those who have faith in Yeshua are considered sons of Abraham. For this cause, those gentiles should not boast over those natural branches that were broken off of the cultivated tree because of unbelief. If the tree is holy so are the branches.

Click to expand...

Danthemailman said:

I often hear those in the NOSAS camp interpret Romans 11:16-22 to mean that saved individuals can lose their salvation. I would like to hear how those in the OSAS camp interpret Romans 11:16-22.

Click to expand...

Kilk1 said:

Hello! I'm studying the Calvinism debate and looking at passages on both sides. The current passage I'm looking at is one that currently seems to go against Calvinism: Romans 11:16-22. I could be wrong; if so, could you answer the following questions of mine?

1. Are the branches individuals or groups?
2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?
3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?
4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?
5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Thanks in advanced,
Kilk

Click to expand...

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yes (so it seems), except of course for those branches that do not bear fruit and the OWNER breaks them off..... the branches that are not holy, nor obedient, nor true, nor faithful....

Click to expand...

Kilk1 said:

Hello! I apologize for taking a long time (20 days, apparently!) to reply. I looked into what you shared, and I was surprised to find that as far as the olive tree is concerned, I agree with the majority of what was said. Here's the summary from the end of the article:

1. Natural branches (Israel after the flesh) were vitally connected to the root (Abraham) apart from faith.
2. At one specific point in history (the end of the Old Covenant), unbelieving natural branches lost their connection to the root and were corporately cut off.
3. The branches that remained (Israel after the spirit) were only those vitally connected to the root (Abraham) through faith.
4. Wild believing branches (Israel after the spirit) were grafted in and vitally connected to the root (Abraham) through faith.
5. Believing branches will not be cut off because God preserves their faith.
6. There are now no branches in the olive tree without faith.
7. The tree represents Israel, both as type (Israel after the flesh) and later anti-type (Israel after the spirit).

What's interesting is that I actually agree with six of the seven bullets here; as far as I can tell, six of these are true. It's the fifth point that I'm disagreeing with. Brandon Adams gives his defense in the section titled, "Elect Excised?"

However, I believe that the text directly denies point 5. Instead of saying that no believing branches will be cut off by God, verses 20-21 explicitly states that "He may not spare" them (NKJV). At least that's how I'm seeing it; if I'm wrong, I don't want to be in error, so pointing out where my line of thought fails will only be appreciated. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Knee V said:

The context of the Epistle to the Romans, as is the case for most of St Paul's epistles, is refuting the heresy of the Judaizers, and we ought to avoid trying to read into the text more than what the context calls for.

In the first several chapters, Paul tells the Jewish believers, "You have no room to boast over the Gentiles!" In this passage, Paul tells the Gentiles, "You have no room to boast, either!"

And that is the nuts and bolts of it. Trying to draw more conclusions is reading into the passage and the epistle a conversation that never took place. The questions you asked, while perfectly fine questions, aren't addressed and are not part of the topic that Paul was writing about.

Click to expand...

Kilk1 said:

Hello! My question is directed to @Jonaitis, who says those grafted in will never be cut off later. Do you believe those grafted in may later be cut off?

Click to expand...

Kilk1 said:

But can they afterward be cut off from Israel?

Click to expand...