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Does opinion superceed Scripture

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R0D

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I was looking through the forum, and noticed all of the opinions and advice given, that just plain out is not of the scripture.
Are we to rely more on our own peceptions of morality over those that the scriptures give us?

It is a common principle repeated throughout the Bible.
The more man drifts away from God, the less His instructions will matter.
The fact that we see this demonstrated and see what replaces it only reveals what is in the heart.
You probably know this part - out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

It's sad though, isn't it. To see what clearly isn't right being lifted up as good. I'm glad that you seem not to like it, you shouldn't.
 
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4Christ2

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IMO, (LOL) I see many give "opinions" that are contrary to God's Word. The person who does this should heed the warnings of Jesus Himself for it is better that that person have a milestone around his neck and be cast into the sea than to cause one of His "little ones" to stumble. That's enough fear of God in me to make sure that my Words speak only what thus saith the Lord.
 
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lawtonfogle

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The Bible is final authority in all matters.

2 Timothy 3:16 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

This I do not agree with. I will agree that this is true in most matters, but anytime God plays a direct part, He has the final say. And there are cases where what He says may not be what the Bible says. (I do believe something about a prophet marrying a prostitute, which was against the laws found elsewhere. God can not only say that a = a', but make it so.
 
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davedjy

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This I do not agree with. I will agree that this is true in most matters, but anytime God plays a direct part, He has the final say. And there are cases where what He says may not be what the Bible says. (I do believe something about a prophet marrying a prostitute, which was against the laws found elsewhere. God can not only say that a = a', but make it so.

I don't see any case nowadays where the Lord would EVER say to go against what the Word always tells us to do. There is much in the Bible that contradicts this:


"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name” (Ps 138:2).

“The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever” (Ps 12:6-7).

“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” (Matt 5:18).


“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matt 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33).


“The scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35).
 
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lawtonfogle

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Maybe I should have said in possibly all matters today.

But God does have the final say. To say other wise would say the Bible has the final say and that God doesn't. I will admit that His final say may be the same as the Bible, but God, not the Bible, still has final say.

Really, it can be seen as a case of could not vs. will not. God may chose to not say something against His own word, but that doesn't mean He could not, just that he will not. Of course, if you think that the idea of 'will not' creates the idea of 'could not', that is your opinion, just as it is my opinion it does not.

Also, as a side, there are things which the Bible does not cover, namely a thing called dating (life would be so much simpler if it did). I will say the Bible does say things which apply to dating, but it says nothing directly, at least as far as I have ever seen.
 
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davedjy

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Maybe I should have said in possibly all matters today.

But God does have the final say. To say other wise would say the Bible has the final say and that God doesn't. I will admit that His final say may be the same as the Bible, but God, not the Bible, still has final say.

Really, it can be seen as a case of could not vs. will not. God may chose to not say something against His own word, but that doesn't mean He could not, just that he will not. Of course, if you think that the idea of 'will not' creates the idea of 'could not', that is your opinion, just as it is my opinion it does not.

Also, as a side, there are things which the Bible does not cover, namely a thing called dating (life would be so much simpler if it did). I will say the Bible does say things which apply to dating, but it says nothing directly, at least as far as I have ever seen.
What is it about dating you are unsure of? The main point I have seen is not to be in a private place with your date (such as a closed room or place where no one is around), as you will lead yourself into the temptation of fornication.
 
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lawtonfogle

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Well, really, what is the correct way to date, the courtship format, or the going out format. Also, though it is generally accepted that anything cuasing lust is not allowed, what about what causes some people lust but not the ones doing it (which could be something simple, such as kissing).

Edit: Before I forget, also the idea of arranged marriages being correct marriages compared to marrying based on love, though this is not directly dating, this debate worms it way into many dating topics.
 
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4Christ2

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Maybe I should have said in possibly all matters today.

But God does have the final say. To say other wise would say the Bible has the final say and that God doesn't. I will admit that His final say may be the same as the Bible, but God, not the Bible, still has final say.

Really, it can be seen as a case of could not vs. will not. God may chose to not say something against His own word, but that doesn't mean He could not, just that he will not. Of course, if you think that the idea of 'will not' creates the idea of 'could not', that is your opinion, just as it is my opinion it does not.

Also, as a side, there are things which the Bible does not cover, namely a thing called dating (life would be so much simpler if it did). I will say the Bible does say things which apply to dating, but it says nothing directly, at least as far as I have ever seen.
What would you say the Bible is? Is it not God's Word? How could God not do what He says in His Word. I'm also reminded of I John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning."
 
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ebia

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What would you say the Bible is? Is it not God's Word?
Not in the sense that John is talking about at the beginning of his gospel, no.

I'm also reminded of I John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning."
is talking about Christ, not the bible.
 
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davedjy

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Not in the sense that John is talking about at the beginning of his gospel, no.


is talking about Christ, not the bible.

This verse seems to make it more clear, that I quoted previously:

Psalms 138:2


2 I will worship toward Your holy temple,
And praise Your name
For Your lovingkindness and Your truth;
For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.
 
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powie

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I was looking through the forum, and noticed all of the opinions and advice given, that just plain out is not of the scripture.
Are we to rely more on our own peceptions of morality over those that the scriptures give us?
To answer this fundamentla question we need to know the origin of morality, and know that morality is not borne of God, it is borne of man.

I can easily imagine that it would do immense harm to society to murder a person. This is why I do not do it. I trust other members of society to hold this belief, and thus the morality derives from consensus: Who is born wanting to kill people? The people who for some reason, do want to kill people, are inherently detrimental to society, so we implement programs (Law enforcement, penitentiaries) which limit the effect these people can have on our society.

Once we have answered the question on the origin of morality, we are free to apply it. The only rule, it would seem, when it comes to morality is to do not unto others as you would not have done unto you. What Christianity calls for is that and then some. Christianity asks us to do not unto others as we would have done unto as, but also to do unto others as we would have done unto us. Viewed through this lens, morality derived from scripture is insignificant.
 
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savedandhappy1

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The Bible is final authority in all matters.

2 Timothy 3:16 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

I know this is long, but it is good. I hope you don't mind me posting this as a followup to your above statement?

Compromise and Confusion in the Churches
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]7/1/2005[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Albert Mohler[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]
The church today finds itself assaulted without--and even within--by a culture and worldview of untruth, anti-truth, and postmodern irrationality. In fact, researchers increasingly report that a majority of evangelicals themselves reject the notion of absolute or objective truth. The seductive lure of postmodern relativism has pervaded many evangelical pulpits and countless evangelical pews, often couched as humility, sensitivity, or sophistication. The culture has us in its grip, and many feel no discomfort.
The absence of doctrinal precision and biblical preaching marks the current evangelical age. Doctrine is considered outdated by some and divisive by others. The confessional heritage of the church is neglected and, in some cases, seems even to be an embarrassment to updated evangelicals. Expository preaching--once the hallmark and distinction of the evangelical pulpit--has been replaced in many churches by motivational messages, therapeutic massaging of the self, and formulas for health, prosperity, personal integration, and celestial harmony.

Almost a century ago, J.C. Ryle, the great evangelical bishop, warned of such diversions from truth: "I am afraid of an inward disease which appears to be growing and spreading in all the churches of Christ throughout the world. That disease is a disposition on the part of ministers to abstain from all sharply-cut doctrine, and a distaste on the part of professing Christians for all distinct statements of dogmatic truth."

A century later, Ryle's diagnosis is seen as prophets, and the disease is assuredly terminal. The various strains of the truth-relativizing virus are indicated by different symptoms and diverse signs, but the end is the same. Among the strains now threatening the evangelical churches is the temptation to find a halfway house between modernity and biblical truth. Another is the call for an "evangelical mega-shift," which would transform orthodox evangelical conviction into the categories of modern process thought. This is a road that leads to disaster and away from the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

What is our proper response to all this? Should we devote our attention and energies to epistemology and metaphysics? Must we spend ourselves in arguments concerning foundationalism and non-foundationalism? While these issues are not unimportant, they cannot be our central concern. Again, the words of Ryle speak to our age: "Let no scorn of the world, let no ridicule of smart writers, let no sneers of liberal critics, let no secret desire to please and conciliate the public, tempt us for one moment to leave the old paths, and drop the old practice of enunciating doctrine--clear, distinct, well-defined, and sharply-cut doctrine--in all utterances and teachings."

We contend for the objectivity of truth, and we must insist that all persons do actually believe in the objectivity of Truth. The fact is that even the relativists objectivize their own positions. The difference for us is that we know that truth exists in God, who is Truth, and whose Word is truth. Our knowledge is true only in so far as it corresponds with God's revealed truth. We are dependent upon the Word, the Word is not dependent upon us. As Martin Luther stated so clearly, "The objectivity and certainty of the Word remain even if it isn't believed." We have no right to seek refuge in a halfway house of false epistemological humility. To deny the truthfulness of God's Word is not an act of humility, but of unspeakable arrogance.
This is our proper epistemological humility - not that it is not possible for us to know, but that the truth is not our own. We are dependent upon the Word of God. Indeed, we submit ourselves to the Word of God, as believers, teachers, and preachers. And this is genuine knowledge, revealed knowledge. It is knowledge of which we are not ashamed. As Gordon Clark warned: "If man can know nothing truly, man can truly know nothing. We cannot know that the Bible is the Word of God, that Christ died for our sin, or that Christ is alive today at the right hand of the Father. Unless knowledge is possible, Christianity is non-sensical, for it claims to be knowledge. What is at stake in the twentieth century is not simply a single doctrine, such as the Virgin Birth, or the existence of Hell, as important as those doctrines may be, but the whole of Christianity itself. If knowledge is not possible to man, it is worse than silly to argue points of doctrine--it is insane."
We confess that knowledge is possible, but knowledge of spiritual things is revealed. Without the Word of God we would know nothing of redemption, of Christ, of God's sovereign provision for us. We would have no true knowledge of ourselves, of our sin, of our hopelessness but for the mercy of Christ. As Professor R. B. Kuiper reminded his students, the most direct, the simplest, and most honest answer to the question, "How do you know?" is this: "The Bible tells us so."

As Jesus reminded Peter, immediately after Peter's majestic confession, "Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17). So it is with us: Our true knowledge was not revealed to us by flesh and blood, and certainly was not discovered on our own by the power of our own rationality and insight; it is revealed to us in the Word of God. This is our proper humility. But we must be on guard against an improper and faithless humility. Wilfred Cantwell Smith has asserted that "it is morally not possible to actually go out into the world and say to devout, intelligent fellow human beings: We believe that we know God and we are right; you believe that you know God, and you are totally wrong." Of course, Smith is correct; we have no right to assert such a statement, in and of ourselves and of our own knowledge. But we have no right not to bear witness to the truth of God's Word, and on that basis to proclaim the truth revealed in God's Word.

For this reason, our defense of biblical inerrancy is never a diversion or distraction from our proper task. This is why those who affirm biblical inerrancy and those who deny inerrancy are divided, not by a minor distinction, but by an immense epistemological and theological chasm.
Every aspect of the theological task and every doctrinal issue are affected by the answer to this fundamental question: Is the Bible the authentic, authoritative, inspired, and inerrant Word of God in written form, and thus God's faithful witness to himself? For the believing church, the answer must be yes. With the framers of the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, we affirm that "The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total divine inerrancy is in any way limited or disregarded, or made relative to a view of truth contrary to the Bible's own; and such lapses bring serious loss to both the individual and the Church. We confess and affirm the truthfulness of Scripture in every respect, and we stand under the authority of the Word of God, never over the Word. In other words, we come to the Scriptures, not with a postmodern hermeneutic of suspicion, but with a faithful hermeneutic of submission."

As our Lord stated concerning the Scriptures, "Thy Word is Truth" (John 17:17). And, as Paul wrote to Timothy, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16). Made clear in this text is the inescapable truth that our task is to teach and to preach this Word; to reprove, to correct, and to train in righteousness. Should our churches return in faithfulness to this fundamental charge, the secular worldview would lose its grip on the believing church.

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/weblogs/mohler/1338174.html
[/SIZE][/FONT]
 
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lawtonfogle

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What would you say the Bible is? Is it not God's Word? How could God not do what He says in His Word. I'm also reminded of I John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning."

Of the scripture, I am that to be one of the Trinity. To say it is the Bible is to say the Word is one of the Trinity.

Maybe I should restate again. I think God can make special exceptions. These exceptions do not endanger what is in the Bible.

Really, let a = Bible, and b = God
Logically,
a ( b means a u b = b. This is saying that either a = b, or a < b. In which case, if a = b, then b = a, and they are the same thing, but since the a != b, then b > a. By this, God is greater than the Bible, since the Bible is only the word of God, and not God. So by this, the Bible doesn't limit God.

Really, I understand the fact I have never seen a case of God allowing something defined by the Bible as not being allowed, but I do not say that one cannot exist.

Wait, now that I think of this, there is one case which still applies today. The eating of unclean meat. God once said you could not eat it, but it is also said later on He said it is allowed to eat it, so there is a case where God controdicted His word. And as such, a future case may be possible. Though the existance of a fact in the past does not prove a fact in the future, the existance does prove the possibility of the fact. Or something like that.
 
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lawtonfogle

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Should one ignore their own opinions, and ideas and what they feel in their heart is right, for someone else''s interpretation of the Bible?

Not in your case but in the case where it is their own interpertation of the Bible
 
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savedandhappy1

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To believe that God couldn't and or wouldn't protect His Word from misinterpretation or errors is just mind bogling to me.

Why would He make it where we couldn't tell what part of the Bible to believe and what part not to believe? As so many have said He is a God of Love, so He is going to not make it clear to us what is right and what is wrong?

God is not the author of confusion, the Bible says, but that could be one of those misinterpretated scriptures, I guess.:scratch:
 
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lawtonfogle

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If you are saying what you did based off of what I say, I am saying special exceptions, which may or may not apply to all, which does not cause confusion (does the eating of unclean animals even though they were previously not allowed to be eaten cause confusion?).
 
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Dannager

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The fact that you subscribe to Christianity as your religion means that you have made a decision based on your own moral opinions. Of the dozens of major religions in existence, if you have picked Christianity you have made a decision based solely on your own moral opinions in the first place. Were your moral opinions different, you might have selected Islam, Judaism, Deism, Atheism, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism or any of the other major world religions. So don't start whining about those who appear to you as though they are acting on what you call moral opinions, because you've already done so.
 
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4Christ2

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Of the scripture, I am that to be one of the Trinity. To say it is the Bible is to say the Word is one of the Trinity.

Maybe I should restate again. I think God can make special exceptions. These exceptions do not endanger what is in the Bible.

Really, let a = Bible, and b = God
Logically,
a ( b means a u b = b. This is saying that either a = b, or a < b. In which case, if a = b, then b = a, and they are the same thing, but since the a != b, then b > a. By this, God is greater than the Bible, since the Bible is only the word of God, and not God. So by this, the Bible doesn't limit God.

Really, I understand the fact I have never seen a case of God allowing something defined by the Bible as not being allowed, but I do not say that one cannot exist.

Wait, now that I think of this, there is one case which still applies today. The eating of unclean meat. God once said you could not eat it, but it is also said later on He said it is allowed to eat it, so there is a case where God controdicted His word. And as such, a future case may be possible. Though the existance of a fact in the past does not prove a fact in the future, the existance does prove the possibility of the fact. Or something like that.
If Jesus is the living Word, and the written Word was inspired of the Holy Spirit about God and Jesus...I don't see how the Bible is indeed not a part of the Trinity!
 
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davedjy

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WalkingforHim said:
Should one ignore their own opinions, and ideas and what they feel in their heart is right, for someone else''s interpretation of the Bible?


A good verse for that would be:

Jeremiah 17:9 (New International Version)

9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
 
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