Whatever your conscience says.
What is required is the true baptism in the Holy Spirit which the Father willingly gives to anyone who asks.
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Some say you must be baptized in order to be saved. Others say although baptism is very important, it is not imperative in order to be saved. What say you?
Some say you must be baptized in order to be saved. Others say although baptism is very important, it is not imperative in order to be saved. What say you?
The argument is that the thief on the cross was under old testament law because Christ had not died yet. And Christ has the power to forgive sins as He did with others, even without baptism. But, that once He died that baptism is now the only way to be saved. In Mark 16:16 Jesus says, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned."
I am not interested in what other say, I am only interested in what Bible says.
Notice what Jesus said:
Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
The Great Commission as it is called has Jesus telling us how to make disciples of Christ. Jesus also said:
Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Jesus said that belief and baptism are required to be saved. You cannot grammatically separate these two things because they are bound together by the word and. Jesus disciples did not disappoint because at the birth of the church in Acts 2 Peter told the Jews exactly what they needed to do be saved:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Again, you cannot separate these two things and baptism is the point at which your sins are forgiven. Hence no baptism, no forgiveness of sins. Just read through the book of acts and you will find two things that are mentioned when someone was converted to Christ: belief and baptism.
There is nothing magical about the water, it simply the place God has said you will come in contact with the cleansing power of Jesus blood (Rev. 1:5). Being baptized is not a work of man, but a work of God. As Paul says:
Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
When you submit yourself to baptism and put your faith in the working of God, you can know that you are being buried with Christ and united in His death. Your old man is being put to death (Rom. 6) and God is washing away your sins with the blood of Jesus (Just like Paul Acts 22:16). When you come up from the water you can know that you have been raised from spiritual death caused by your sin and you been raised alive together with Jesus as a new creature in Christ without your sins.
Since you must put faith in the working of God for this to happen, it means you must know what you are doing, which rules out being baptized as baby or young child without understanding.
This why Peter said:
1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Peter couldnt make it clearer baptism is necessary for salvation and it is an answer of good conscience to God, which means we must know what we are doing when are being baptized, otherwise we just get wet.
The Bible, not me, teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation.
Unborn babies and those who have not reached the age of accountablity do not have be baptized to be saved because they are not capable of understanding what they must do to be saved. This would include the mentally challenged and the like. Everyone else must.
First of all what is babtism?
Second, you only assume that the thief on the cross was previously baptized by John. Where is your Scriptural proof?
Third Jesus says in Matthew 10:32 and 33 that he who confesses Him before men He will confess before the Father.
Rom. 10:9-10 It states that one who believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth will be saved. Why did the gospel writer leave out baptism?
Why was Jesus baptized? He certainly did not sin, and had nothing to repent for. He needed no remission of sins, because He was sinless!
I do not want to offend you, but I am attempting to show you a more excellent way. I firmly believe that almost every denomination that originated from the doctrinal differences over baptism have gotten it wrong. My purpose is to cause you to dig a little deeper! Quit teaching the doctrines of men and really see what the Scriptures say. Most of us have been taught garbage that causes division in the church over this very subject! I've had to study this out in much prayer to be able to shed light on this divisive issue! Having said that, I'm not going to give you the conclusion yet, because I want you to reasonably question where you could be wrong!
That is why I am asking you some very leading questions, in order to provoke you to think beyond what you have already been taught.
After reading your statement, let me ask you!
Has Jesus lost the power to forgive sins now that He has ascended to the Father?
The Bible accounts that the three men on the cross all died. It does not give a definite timeline of who died first. Suppose the thief died last, after Jesus died, was he saved?
Whatever your conscience says.
What is required is the true baptism in the Holy Spirit which the Father willingly gives to anyone who asks.
Actually, Crucifixion was a very slow death. Jesus died very quickly, they were cutting the legs of the other men to hurry up their deaths (meaning they were still alive) for the Passover, yet Jesus was already dead. Thus, Jesus died first.
Quick question.
If baptism is a requirement for salvation, what's the point of the cross?
Just curious,
A Wright
By the verse you quoted: Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Sorry, no room in heaven for aborted babies, young children, or mentally challenged.
Suddenly you want to make this rule you were preaching as hard core more of a general guide line, when it suites your agenda. Either it sticks hard and fast, and all babies go to hell, or it is a general guide line, and water baptism is not a requirement.
Let's address being born of the water and the Spirit: Many would say being born of water is what you are when you are birthed from the womb of your mother. You are birthed from a womb filled with water, and this does not signify water baptism at all. And that being born of the Spirit is when you become born again, thus the born-again experience. Others say being born of the water is when you are baptized, and then you are born of the Spirit and that is being born again! What say you?
Some would say that the cross was good but it did not accomplis the plan of salvation, because you still must believe and be baptized for the washing away of sins. Without that baptism for the remission of sins then you are not saved. What say you?
Christ died before the thief, so the thief was under new covenant.
And the verse you quoted does not say 'but he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned'. It doesn't actually covers what happens when one believes but is not baptized.
It seems to me that we get bogged down in the mechanics of the redemptive process (among many other doctrinal issues). Sometimes I wish God would've produced a salvation flow-chart just to put these exercises to bed once and for all.
As to the point at hand, I believe anything that attempts to demote the blood of Christ from its rightful place as the ONLY source for the washing away of our sins is in error. I believe the rightly divided Word of God shows this without question.
That's my short answer. Any further elaboration will take time that I do not currently have (I'm at work atm) and, frankly, I grow weary of the "doubtful disputations" on these time worn issues.
I had a confessed moment of weakness when I posted that question...Used to be quite the debater (fighter?) back in the day. Old habits die hard.
ASW
This very question is seen in the scenario of a guy who does the basics of salvation, and on his way to getting baptized, dies (stroke, hit by a car, ect.). Which way does he go? I am saying up myself. Actual baptism is not required, but a desire to not be baptized does not bode well.
Christ died before the thief, so the thief was under new covenant.
And the verse you quoted does not say 'but he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned'. It doesn't actually covers what happens when one believes but is not baptized.
So there are no death bed conversions then? Really, God would be fickle enough to deny salvation on a technicality of not getting water? What next, oops, your shows were muddy when you walked in the church, no salvation for you? The Bible spoke of the general case where people would be able to be baptized, not as an absolute law. In other words, if you got the chance, then you did baptize. If you didn't, then I guess that means you were killed before you could. This also contradicts no works needed, as baptism is a work. If salvation requires baptism, then in part, it required a work of man.
By the verse you quoted: Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Sorry, no room in heaven for aborted babies, young children, or mentally challenged.
Suddenly you want to make this rule you were preaching as hard core more of a general guide line, when it suites your agenda. Either it sticks hard and fast, and all babies go to hell, or it is a general guide line, and water baptism is not a requirement. [\quote]
I dont have an agenda other than to present the truth from the Bible. Your thoughts here are your own assumption because I have already showed why young children or the mentally challenged would be safe.
Perhaps this will help. In the OT a Jew was born a child of God and entered the covenant by being circumcised on the 8th day and then they were taught about God as the grew up, but under the NT, we are not born a child of God because we will be taught about God first and then we choose to become a Christian (see Jer. 31:31-34), but we must be old enough to be able to obey the commands. An infant, young child, or the mental challenged cannot believe in God, repent, confess or understand what is going on when they are being baptized. Since we are not born in sin, they will be safe, but for everyone else that can comprehend, they must obey our perish.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Quick question.
If baptism is a requirement for salvation, what's the point of the cross?
Just curious,
A Wright
Without Jesus death on the cross, we would all be lost, but when He died He did not make it to where everyone was saved no matter what. If that was the case, then we do not need our Bibles to tell us how to do this or how to do that if Jesus death took care of it all. Since this is not the case we must obey the commands of God with baptism being one of them, which is required to be saved.
It seems to me that we get bogged down in the mechanics of the redemptive process (among many other doctrinal issues). Sometimes I wish God would've produced a salvation flow-chart just to put these exercises to bed once and for all.
As to the point at hand, I believe anything that attempts to demote the blood of Christ from its rightful place as the ONLY source for the washing away of our sins is in error. I believe the rightly divided Word of God shows this without question.
That's my short answer. Any further elaboration will take time that I do not currently have (I'm at work atm) and, frankly, I grow weary of the "doubtful disputations" on these time worn issues.
I had a confessed moment of weakness when I posted that question... Used to be quite the debater (fighter?) back in the day. Old habits die hard.
ASW
I think the story of Naaman the leper in 2 Kings 5 is a picture of baptism.Does one need to be baptized in order to be saved?
Some say you must be baptized in order to be saved. Others say although baptism is very important, it is not imperative in order to be saved. What say you?
Some say you must be baptized in order to be saved. Others say although baptism is very important, it is not imperative in order to be saved. What say you?
Being baptized with fire is not about feeling hot under the skin; it’s about the life long process of spiritual purification that Christ takes us all through until we are all transformed into His image and likeness.This is a really good question. Church folk fight tooth and nail about it too. I grew up going to a church of christ half the time and a baptist church the other half. Then I walked away from church totally for a long time. I was taught water baptism was the only way to salvation. Then I asked Jesus into my heart once as a little girl at the baptist church. This thoroughly ticked off my grandmother who went to the church of christ...because they believe salvation only comes from water baptism and not faith alone. Here is my personal testimony.. I walked away from church totally for a long time. Then one night alone in my room..I asked Jesus to come back. I repented. Something happened to me at the time I could not understand. I felt the presence of God , his unspeakable love and holiness....and I was burning up. I felt like I was on fire..so much that I looked at my skin..thinking I'd be burned. And I saw everything different. It was like the whole world was new to me. It was so powerful and weird. It changed me completely. I now can speak in tongues. Mind you everyone in my family condemns all practicing of gifts of the spirit..so that's an issue itself. I started reading the gospels more and more. I started thinking about when I was a little girl again..and my dueling grandmothers on faith and baptism. I prayed..and I started searching. John DID baptize with water. And water baptism is a way to be baptized. But ..people need to listen to John a bit closer..He says..He who comes after me..baptizes with fire..and I'm not even fit to walk in his sandles. Jesus came to John and said it is proper to baptize..and john baptized with water. John baptizes with water. Jesus baptizes with fire. According to the word..it doesn't look like either one is wrong. I plan to do the water thing eventually. But..if someone where to walk up to me and say.."You aren't saved yet because you havent been baptized in water." I'd respond like this, " You saying that I am not saved..is you making judgement on me. Our Father in heaven will judge you just the same as you have judged me. " I have many witnesses of my life changing profoundly. My Father in heaven himself is a witness of me being reborn in the spirit. I am a totally new person. I am astonished at how ignorant and condemning people are about all of this. I'm seriously praying that God peels the scales off their eyes so their can see past religion to God himself. Repent and seek the Kingdom of God for yourself..not for a religious man-made establishment...and our Father in Heaven will add all things needed..including in the name of his beloved Son baptizing you. Have faith in the Lord!.. Not traditions. Read the word of God and pray for understanding.
May God bless you!
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