Does morality exist without God?

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ABlessedAnomaly

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If you step back and look at the "big picture" there's no other way to see it, actually.

You have an omniscient god, which means he knows everything. He knew even before he began creation how each person would turn out. He knew that the choice to bring sin into the world would be made. He knew that John Doe down the street would be born with Down's Syndrome. Yet, he created anyway. Ultimately, the blame lies solely with god and no other.
Not true.

We also have an omnipotent God. He is capable of things that you could not even imagine: like knowing all things, yet creating without taking that knowledge as a benchmark to the creation. In other words, creating a free will in humans that is truly free and not bound or hindered by the choice that we will make with that free will and not coercing or forcing our choice in the creation process. He's bigger and more powerful than our puny little pea brains can imagine.

(assuming of course, that god even exists and that the Bible is true.)
Since your icon says ateist, I'll assume this is your viewpoint :).
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Thanks for the link to disprove your own point... quoting the exact article you just linked to me:

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]"The word "hell" occurs 31 times in the Old Testament. All 31 of those times, the word translated "hell" is the Hebrew word "sheol." While the English word "hell" has connotations as a place of punishment for the condemned, sheol does not have such connotations. Sheol simply refers to the abode of the dead in general, not particularly the place of the punishment for the wicked. In fact, sheol was divided into two compartments, one for the righteous dead and one for the wicked dead. And, more specifically, the Jewish concept of sheol was the "underworld," or in other words, a place within the earth, underneath the surface world."[/FONT]


[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]So yes, the Christians warped Jewish Theology and created the Christian idea of Hell from it. Hell (from the traditional Christian perspective at least) does not appear in the old testament.[/FONT]
You take the setting up of the discussion and make it a conclusion?? Do you have any idea what Judiasm believes about those who die outside of God's chosen?
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Easy, because God was setting up a miracle heal to give Jesus a way to prove himself. And he did it on the back of some boy who had to lay paralyzed his entire life.... That's perfectly moral, eh?
This is not biblically supportable. God did not need to set up a show so that Jesus could jump through a hoop and perform. If God was looking for a way of Jesus "proving Himself" then feeding the 5000 with a few loaes and fish, or turning water into wine would suffice.

No, sickness is described biblically as being part of the curse. And when God describes the curse He tells us not to do the things that lead to the curse and that obtain for us the sickness and disease. He is about healing sickness and bringing people to wholeness and health. He is not about tearing down His children to prove a point. Judgement is for the wicked.

If God created everything, than everything (good and bad) is God's creation. Evil and Sin are included in that.
What else is new?
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Dave, there is NOTHING that exists that God did not create. Nothing just happened to show up; darkness is not the absence of light, as shown in this quote: it was created to be the absence of light.
1 Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
"All things" does not leave many things out. For if God did not create all, then something has the potential to be equal with God -- for it must have created that thing. And biblically this does not hold water.

Now the purposes and uses of all that creation is what is under study here. The question of whether God USES the sickness, USES the darkness, USES disease. And scripture is clear: not against His kids; not to teach...not to chastise (discipline). In Judgement, perhaps; but not against His elect.
 
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Shane Roach

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Are you really bringing out that tired old argument?

First off, Nazi Germany was not an Atheistic State, and Hitler was not an Atheist. In fact the Nazis persecuted and murdered the Atheists just like any other undesirable group to them. If you had an understanding of history, you'd know that.... but apparently your opinions and prejudices are more important than actual fact in this case too.

Communist Russia was Atheistic, however none of their ideology was based on Atheism. Their ideology was based on the works of Karl Marx, and Soviet figures like Lenin and whatnot. Their opposition to the church was more based on the fact that it was a competing authority, when the soviet government was trying to consolidate total power with themselves. Stalin himself was planning to be an Orthodox priest before he got into politics (although I am in agreement later in life he probably was an Atheist).

Furthermore, the vast majority of Atheists are not communists. I for one hold fairly strong right wing economic views, and a more libertarian stance on social issues. I am absolutely opposed to communism, as I believe it's a flawed system that does not work.

Anyway, to get back to the whole point... You are right, Atheism is not a philosophy or a religion.

So what is your basis for criticizing it as a philosophy or religion, when you are aware that it is not.

Atheists can't attack other atheists? Oh, I think they can. The only atheists Nazi's persecuted were communists, and it's kind of hilarious since they themselves were "Nationalist Socialists". Their methods and motives were consistently atheistic, and as always they claimed "science" as their guide.

Marxism and Leninist/Stalinist teachings are in opposition to one another. Wanting to do away with religion, which often enough is populist, in order to consolidate power is rather predictable as an atheistic tactic, whichever version of communism or socialism you care to present. All of them are atheistic, and all depend on non-democratic centralized bureaucracies.

I have not criticized atheism as a philosophy or a religion, as you well know. That's why you keep trying to defend your belief in it with distractions from the actual claim I am making and that you are supporting with your every post -- that there is no acceptable philosophy or morality that contains within its general structure an atheistic belief.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I have to thank you Dave for your link. This is one of the most effective links I have ever seen in pointing out the intolerance and double standard of atheists.

Council for Secular Humanism
"We do not think it is moral to baptize infants, to confirm adolescents, or to impose a religious creed on young people before they are able to consent."

So parents are evil if they raise their child in a religious home.

I happen to agree with the statement from the council of secular humanists. However you are mis-characterizing the statement. Nobody is calling anyone evil.

The actions listed above are otherwise known as indoctrination. Indoctrination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Indoctrination is not moral behavior. They should present a variety of different beliefs and philosophies once the child is of age to examine what he's being told, and let them make up their own minds on what they believe. Once I have a kid, I fully intend to inform them of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and every other viewpoint I can. I'll also do my best to remove personal viewpoint from the equation.

Many parents take that view when teaching their children about politics and social issues... I don't think religion should be any different.

To address your "evil" statement... I understand the parents think they're genuinely doing a good thing. So I don't view them as evil people. Many good people have done bad things based on a misguided belief before.





"However. we find that traditional views of the existence of God either are meaningless, have not yet been demonstrated to be true, or are tyrannically exploitative."

That sounds like a tolerant, rational attitude to take towards the ethical and moral beliefs of humanity stretching back to prehistory -- they were all a bunch of idiots, creating meaningless belief systems, many of which are tyrannically exploitative.

Such inclusive people, these secularists.[/quote]


Can you show evidence that the statement is incorrect? You may not like it, but it's spot on.

People who believe god is some undefined life-force that doesn't interact with us essentially has a meaningless god definition. If such a being does exist, it's irrelevant to us.

Likewise, no god has yet been demonstrated to be true. Yet, there's been great tyranny and exploitation at the hands of religion throughout history, and into the modern day.

We're not trying to deny your right to believe or worship whatever you want... but again, we don't have to respect your belief as valid if it's ridiculous. You would act the same way, in that you wouldn't respect a Flat-Earthers belief as valid although you agree he has the right to believe it.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Not true.

We also have an omnipotent God. He is capable of things that you could not even imagine: like knowing all things, yet creating without taking that knowledge as a benchmark to the creation. In other words, creating a free will in humans that is truly free and not bound or hindered by the choice that we will make with that free will and not coercing or forcing our choice in the creation process. He's bigger and more powerful than our puny little pea brains can imagine.

Since your icon says ateist, I'll assume this is your viewpoint :).


An Omni-Max god is self-contradictory.

And if our pea brains are incapable of comprehending what you are telling us... then how do you know it's true, and why are you asserting it as fact?

You have admitted you couldn't possibly hope to understand your God, yet you are telling us exactly all his characteristics. You're contradicting your own point. If this God was as you say, you would have no idea what he is, and is not capable of.
 
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Dave Ellis

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You take the setting up of the discussion and make it a conclusion?? Do you have any idea what Judiasm believes about those who die outside of God's chosen?


There is very little mentioned outside of they go to Sheol... and the idea of fiery torture and all that is not mentioned.
 
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Dave Ellis

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This is not biblically supportable. God did not need to set up a show so that Jesus could jump through a hoop and perform. If God was looking for a way of Jesus "proving Himself" then feeding the 5000 with a few loaes and fish, or turning water into wine would suffice.

Oh yeah, because feeding 5,000 people with a few loaves of bread and fish, or turning water into wine isn't putting on a show either!

No, sickness is described biblically as being part of the curse. And when God describes the curse He tells us not to do the things that lead to the curse and that obtain for us the sickness and disease. He is about healing sickness and bringing people to wholeness and health. He is not about tearing down His children to prove a point. Judgement is for the wicked.

And what did this boy do to deserve his curse? Why did God allow a young boy like that to get in such poor shape?



What else is new?
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Dave, there is NOTHING that exists that God did not create. Nothing just happened to show up; darkness is not the absence of light, as shown in this quote: it was created to be the absence of light.
1 Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
"All things" does not leave many things out. For if God did not create all, then something has the potential to be equal with God -- for it must have created that thing. And biblically this does not hold water.

Now the purposes and uses of all that creation is what is under study here. The question of whether God USES the sickness, USES the darkness, USES disease. And scripture is clear: not against His kids; not to teach...not to chastise (discipline). In Judgement, perhaps; but not against His elect.



Ok, so if God created all things, he created down's syndrome... and he created a boy afflicted with down's syndrome.

Likewise, he would have created people who would not believe in him during their lifetimes.

There's no way around it, If God creates all, then all of those things must by definition be his creation.
 
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now faith

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So.... when the business my pious Chrstian friend and me had went broke, God didn't hear his prayers to save his business, his mortaged home, his family because of his evil unbelieving compagnon... or because he wanted to break him before he raised him up again... or because sometimes God answers a prayer with "no, take a hike"... or...

It's about faith, it is impossible to please God without it. Why did you call your friend pious, that may be the problem.
 
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Common Sense

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It's hard to get through to a person who simply wants to argue . Sin began the process, man took over and in their haste to correct the mistakes they believed God had made they find themselves up to thier eye balls in problems and then want to blame God. I don't believe there were any problems with what God created. I don't believe your Christian friend went broke because of you, he went broke in spite of you if you did your share of the work. Man came up with bad investments. Many get into the wrong business and fail but they don't cry about it, they get up and continue to try, they don't blame God because their plan didn't work.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Atheists can't attack other atheists? Oh, I think they can. The only atheists Nazi's persecuted were communists, and it's kind of hilarious since they themselves were "Nationalist Socialists". Their methods and motives were consistently atheistic, and as always they claimed "science" as their guide.

Ok... before I was pointing out that you held bigoted opinions to try to enlighten you to the things you were saying, in hopes you would realise your error.

After reading this section, it's personal... But first, a couple quotes:

"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years." - Adolf Hitler (Feb 13, 1933)

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." - Adolf Hitler (October 24, 1933)

"There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles." - Adolf Hitler (August 26, 1934)

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith." - Adolf Hitler (April 26, 1933)

---

If you'll note.... many of the comments made by Adolf Hitler about the ethics of Atheists, you personally have echoed on this board.

The fact is, that after being told that Nazi's were not Atheists, you didn't feel the need to check to see if your information was accurate. You continued down your blind bigoted path, and then topped all your other insults by trying to justify Nazi War Crimes against Atheists, then attempt to put the blame on us. Why not throw on jackboots and a red arm band, because you're not far off what they believed anyway.

How dare you, you ignorant piece of sh*t. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, and you certainly have no right to claim the moral high ground in this discussion ever again.

You wouldn't dare say a similar thing to a Jew or Homosexual. Yet you still feel it's acceptable to talk that way to us. If this is what your Christian morals has taught you, I want no part of your hateful ignorance.

If you are right, and a hell exists, you deserve to go there.


Marxism and Leninist/Stalinist teachings are in opposition to one another. Wanting to do away with religion, which often enough is populist, in order to consolidate power is rather predictable as an atheistic tactic, whichever version of communism or socialism you care to present. All of them are atheistic, and all depend on non-democratic centralized bureaucracies.

I don't know why I'm continuing this post, however I feel the need to point out there is no such thing as an "atheistic tactic" as that would require an atheistic worldview, or end goal.

Oh yeah, and there's been plenty of socialist minded countries that have functioning democracies. Look at continental Europe for an example.

I have not criticized atheism as a philosophy or a religion, as you well know. That's why you keep trying to defend your belief in it with distractions from the actual claim I am making and that you are supporting with your every post -- that there is no acceptable philosophy or morality that contains within its general structure an atheistic belief.

Yes you have, you did so in your previous paragraph. "Atheistic Tactics", Atheistic Regimes, etc.

And yes there is, there's plenty of acceptable philosophy and morality that does not depend on a belief in God. Just because you haven't taken the time to explore and find any, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. On that note, I recommend you try it out sometime, you might find it will improve your own sub-par morality.


I'm done talking to you. It's clear you have your opinions, and despite what evidence or reason you are shown, you are blinded by your own prejudices. You are ignorant, and proud of it. And I will not waste any more time on the likes of you. Hopefully one day, you will learn what it is to be moral.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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And if our pea brains are incapable of comprehending what you are telling us... then how do you know it's true, and why are you asserting it as fact?
Because this is the God of the Bible that you reject. So you have created your own strawman god that you can knock over to satisfy your own desires.

You have admitted you couldn't possibly hope to understand your God, yet you are telling us exactly all his characteristics. You're contradicting your own point. If this God was as you say, you would have no idea what he is, and is not capable of.
Scripture tells me what He is capable of. With the help of the Holy Spirit I do the best I can at understanding it and passing on that understanding. I don't say that I perfectly can tell you some things, like for instance the Trinity (man's word, the word is not in the bible but the concept is): how can God be three persons but One God? I can give you my best estimate, but this is a mystery. Do I know it is true? Yes. Scripture tells me it is.

Your faith is just as mine is, just in differing things. Do you believe that quarks exist? Have you ever seen one? Has anyone?? No! But they say that because of everything else we "see" (or measure, because we don't "see" that stuff either!) then it suggests that quarks exist.

And yet we can take a look at the microbiology of the eye, or the chemical process of blood clotting and someone like you (not saying you, just someone like you, since you've never told me this) will say, oh yeah but it evolved. If this was a "god" issue, you'd tell me what a contradiction it is because by the time blood figured out that it needed to clot all the animals would have died!!

Sure, it evolved. Yeah, right.
 
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Dave Ellis

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It's about faith, it is impossible to please God without it. Why did you call your friend pious, that may be the problem.


I hate to tell you.... but they predicted your answer.

The reality is, is that plenty of extremely devoted Christians with plenty of faith still lost their homes, jobs and businesses with the economic downturn. Likewise, many Muslims, Atheists and non-practising Christians kept their jobs and are still doing relatively ok.

Nobody got "miracled" back into business, or magically found $50,000 that God just happened to make for them to stay in business.

It's truly sad that anyone had to go through what a lot of people did with the recession... however they'd be far more productive getting back on their feet by going out and trying to rebuild and recover, rather than sitting around their house talking to themselves.

Hopefully either way anyone that was affected will soon be back to normal.
 
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Dave Ellis

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It's hard to get through to a person who simply wants to argue . Sin began the process, man took over and in their haste to correct the mistakes they believed God had made they find themselves up to thier eye balls in problems and then want to blame God. I don't believe there were any problems with what God created. I don't believe your Christian friend went broke because of you, he went broke in spite of you if you did your share of the work. Man came up with bad investments. Many get into the wrong business and fail but they don't cry about it, they get up and continue to try, they don't blame God because their plan didn't work.


We're not here simply to argue. There's many great discussions take place on this board that can be enlightening to everyone.

That being said, I haven't ever really found myself up to my eyeballs in problems, and if I did I certainly wouldn't blame God for it. That's like blaming the Cookie Monster if I run out of Oreo's.

If someone blames God for their problems, they are by definition not an Atheist. In order to put the blame on God, you would have to believe there is one. That would make you a Theist.

I didn't ever hear him complaining about the failure of the business, he merely stated his devoutly Christian Partner was extremely faithful and still couldn't catch a break. He's not put the blame on anyone or anything.
 
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now faith

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I hate to tell you.... but they predicted your answer.

The reality is, is that plenty of extremely devoted Christians with plenty of faith still lost their homes, jobs and businesses with the economic downturn. Likewise, many Muslims, Atheists and non-practising Christians kept their jobs and are still doing relatively ok.

Nobody got "miracled" back into business, or magically found $50,000 that God just happened to make for them to stay in business.

It's truly sad that anyone had to go through what a lot of people did with the recession... however they'd be far more productive getting back on their feet by going out and trying to rebuild and recover, rather than sitting around their house talking to themselves.

Hopefully either way anyone that was affected will soon be back to normal.
I hate to tell you but I was being kind,but I am casting pearls before atheist. Our Bible tells Christians to seek not the council of the ungodly.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Because this is the God of the Bible that you reject. So you have created your own strawman god that you can knock over to satisfy your own desires.

No, I made a very valid point. If God is beyond our comprehension, how can you comprehend the seemingly impossible, contradictory things he can apparently do?

Scripture tells me what He is capable of. With the help of the Holy Spirit I do the best I can at understanding it and passing on that understanding. I don't say that I perfectly can tell you some things, like for instance the Trinity (man's word, the word is not in the bible but the concept is): how can God be three persons but One God? I can give you my best estimate, but this is a mystery. Do I know it is true? Yes. Scripture tells me it is.

How do you know the Scripture is true?


Your faith is just as mine is, just in differing things. Do you believe that quarks exist? Have you ever seen one? Has anyone?? No! But they say that because of everything else we "see" (or measure, because we don't "see" that stuff either!) then it suggests that quarks exist.

Quarks are identified through the actions of Hadrons, which are composites of Quarks. Individual quarks are too small to see, however we can identify through experimentation how they work.

Is there an element of faith? Perhaps, I haven't run the experiments myself, so I am taking the word of a scientist. However, his work in order to be accepted by the scientific community must have been repeatedly tested, falsified and critiqued. Furthermore, I can read all of his research, and should I choose, run an experiment myself to confirm his findings with the proper equipment.

Given the fact it's been extensively tested, and everyone's reached a general consensus that Quarks exist, and have determined certain things about them... I see good reason to accept the findings myself.

In religion, the claims made are by design untestable and unverifiable. You simply must take the word of a 2,000 year old book that makes wild and improbable claims, most of which have no evidence, or are contradicted by evidence. There is no good reason to accept that.

And yet we can take a look at the microbiology of the eye, or the chemical process of blood clotting and someone like you (not saying you, just someone like you, since you've never told me this) will say, oh yeah but it evolved. If this was a "god" issue, you'd tell me what a contradiction it is because by the time blood figured out that it needed to clot all the animals would have died!!

Sure, it evolved. Yeah, right.


This is a false argument. The Eye and Blood Clotting are dealt with through evolution, and neither are irreducibly complex. And your assertion that if blood doesn't clot, it would lead to sure death is incorrect. Many animals blood does not clot, for example: Whales and Dolphins.... and Humans with Hemophilia.

Here's a write up on blood clotting evolution: Evolution of Coagulation Cascade: from Invertebrates to Vertebrates to Mammals ........and to Humans. - DoctorsHangout.com

And a video on how the eye evolved (with Richard Dawkins!): The Evolution of the Eye (2010) - Richard Dawkins - YouTube
 
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Eudaimonist

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Ok... before I was pointing out that you held bigoted opinions to try to enlighten you to the things you were saying, in hopes you would realise your error.

You are casting pearls before Christians. But I hope that some Christians reading this thread will pay attention and learn something. Ignorance may be bliss, but it is no virtue.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Dave Ellis

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I hate to tell you but I was being kind,but I am casting pearls before atheist. Our Bible tells Christians to seek not the council of the ungodly.


Sure, don't seek the council of the ungodly... But keeping in mind most scientists (especially biologists) are Atheists, that means you'll have to forego the use of much modern medicine and technology... In fact, if you're using a Microsoft product at the moment, you are using the work of an Atheist, Bill Gates.... Oh yeah, you can't use Apple Products either as Steve Jobs was a Buddhist. I'm not sure if he was part of a Buddhist sect that does or does not believe in God... However it's certain he didn't believe in your god.

You now have a problem.

If you follow the teachings of your bible, you can't use your computer again. Will you heed the words of the bible, or ignore it because it's inconvenient to you?
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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There is very little mentioned outside of they go to Sheol... and the idea of fiery torture and all that is not mentioned.
Now you show ignorance of the subject. I had more hope in you.

The Greek have a word for hell: Gehenna. It comes from two Hebrew words: (1) gah'ee and (2) hinnôm. Gah'ee meas a gorge or a deep valley. Hinnôm is a person's name. Together we have the "valley of Hinnôm." This is understood in Jewish culture to be a place of eternal punishment. Now I will grant you that there are sects in Judaism as well (like our denominations you can say) and some describe this slightly differently. In some of the less extreme it would be more like the Catholic Purgatory: where the deceased would spend up to 11 months having sin purged from their soul.

The valley of Hinnôm is a real place, just outside of Jerusalem it was basically a garbage dump. In this dump fires burned continuously, burning the garbage. They would dump the bodies of the poor there, cremating them for burial. This would be considered dishonorable to be buried in this way. This dump was used as an analogy for the eternal place of death where your body would be burned forever, the fires never stopping.

Even if we look to the Gospels we see Jesus teaching Gehenna. Why? Because to some respect the Gospels are still part of the OT. Jesus had not yet gone to the cross in the Gospels, and His message is delivered to the Jews. And in Matthew and Mark it is shown that He teaches about hell through the analogy of Gehenna. The only other book in the New Testament where Gehenna is mentioned is James -- and James is written to the 12 tribes of Israel; in other words to Jews. The Jews understood the eternal relationship of what Gehenna meant.

Have you ever heard of Mourners' Kiddish? It is a prayer of praise to God in hopes of securing Mercy for the dead who are in Gehenna. This prayer is prayed to try to save loved ones from having to stay "in an eternal place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone." (Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition, Rabbi Or N. Rose, Associate Dean of the Rabbinical School of Hebrew College, Newton, MA).
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Sure, don't seek the council of the ungodly... But keeping in mind most scientists (especially biologists) are Atheists, that means you'll have to forego the use of much modern medicine and technology... In fact, if you're using a Microsoft product at the moment, you are using the work of an Atheist, Bill Gates.... Oh yeah, you can't use Apple Products either as Steve Jobs was a Buddhist. I'm not sure if he was part of a Buddhist sect that does or does not believe in God... However it's certain he didn't believe in your god.

You now have a problem.

If you follow the teachings of your bible, you can't use your computer again. Will you heed the words of the bible, or ignore it because it's inconvenient to you?
Actually Gates was agnostic. In an interview with David Frost in 1995 (you can find this with a simple web search) Gates said: "In terms of doing things I take a fairly scientific approach to why things happen and how they happen. I don't know if there's a god or not, but I think religious principles are quite valid."

Does an atheist not know if there is a god? Do you question this fact, Dave? Or are you sure that there is no god? (Perhaps you are agnostic too?)

But anyway, to your post: what does it matter if most scientists are atheists? (A statement you can't prove, btw.) Does that make God disappear? Gee, perhaps there really is a babel fish and *poof*.....

Well one very renown scientist made the collective scientific community's jaw drop when he, Francis Collins, director of the human genome project, turned from atheist to Christian because the very science that he was studying and developing pointed to only one conclusion: it must have been created by a God outside of what we call time--
The Big Bang: out of nothingness, the universe came into being. That cries out for explanation, since we have not observed nature to create itself . . . it causes us to postulate a creator, and the creator must be outside of time or you haven't solved the problem.
But oh well. You say most are atheist (unproven); some are not. So what? God still exists. You will deny that. So what? God still exists. And since God created the doctors and the medicine that they use it doesn't matter if we go see them because the "council" that we seek from the (btw, the last doctor I went to was Christian) is not council of faith, but rather council for medicine. Your logic that even if I went to an atheist doctor that I was being inconsistent is flawed from the beginning.

And who cares whether Gates is atheist or agnostic. I run bible software on my computer and it has learned from it, and my computer ... is saved?....no, it is still an inanimate object that cannot give me "council" if it tried. And I don't use an iPod, a Mac or an iPad -- so Jobs had no effect on me. But the Windows Phone I use, the Windows operating system I have, and the Microsoft Visual Studio application that I use to write Christian web sites, on which I sell Christian homeschool books ... well, I can't remember the last time I asked any of these things for "ungodly advice." Nope. Your argument falls on its face.

We covered it Dave: God created ALL things -- including the iMac and the electrons that run through it and make it work. So in the end, it is all God's anyway. But then again, that makes you inconsistent: you say you are atheist and then use things (ALL things!) that are created by the God that you don't even believe in.

Close your eyes, Dave. Wish Him away. Open....nope, He's still there.
Try it again: hold your breath. Make a wish. Exhale.

He's still there.
 
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