Does morality exist without God?

[TomZzyzx]

Jesus did warn us about misinterpreting the scriptures. A straight answer to my question will be appreciated especially when Jesus told us to adhere to the scriptures (in this case the OT since there was no NT at the time) and not change an"iota".
Now since the scriptures demand we put to death disobedient children and witches and adulteresses etc. then it will be immoral at the least to stray from those commandments!

Either you accept God's morality or you do not. Discarding the laws in the Bible as laid out by God is in itself punishable by death.

Your call!

Where exactly does Jesus say "adhere to the scriptures"? I can't seem to find it. I would like to know in what context he said it in. As far as I can tell, killing disobedient children and witches and adulteresses, those laws were for Israel of the old testament. We are under a new covenant.

 

[mzungu]

Time for English lessons:

Oxford English Dictionary (OED), Second Edition

Here is how the OED defines "atheism":
atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

So the next time you want to insult us; At least be accurate in your use of the English language!

 

[mzungu]

Where exactly does Jesus say "adhere to the scriptures"? I can't seem to find it. I would like to know in what context he said it in. As far as I can tell, killing disobedient children and witches and adulteresses, those laws were for Israel of the old testament. We are under a new covenant.

Here enjoy:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV).

2) "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)
3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)
7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).
9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

 

[Bridgit]

Does morality exist without God?

No, morality doesn't exist without God, it was created by Him in the first place.

 

[TomZzyzx]

Here enjoy:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV).

2) "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)
3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)
7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).
9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

Yes then, thank you. It's just as I expected, in all these verses Jesus is speaking to the Jews. Then after this in Luke 22:20 Jesus says "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Christians are not Jewish and are not under the old covenant. We don't follow the law of the old testament. The Jews that follow Jesus and all Christians are under the new covenant and follow the teaching of the new testament.

 

[razeontherock]

In short, if you want to make existence proof of God, then you have to define God as nothing but the origin of existence.

This is flawed reasoning.

 

[razeontherock]

You might learn to rightly divide the word someday instead of just being abull in a china shop with it, but till then:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished."

Hmmm, now how many countless passages of Scripture give Light on this?

2) "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law

And who do you suppose is under the law?

3) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfil.

And what does fulfillment mean, how did it happen, and when?

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

Wow. And He told Noah NOT To build an ark, too.

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Why must you intentionally lie and distort? Or is verse 11 really too far away for you to be bothered with reading?

7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

Total failure to rightly divide. No "slavery command," but answers to the current dilemma.

Note that my responses are in red. You have really failed to support your position as anything other than hateful and bigoted, or at best completely misinformed.

 

[Belk]

How can you pull this out of my phrase "the only atheists that are truly w/o God"

Do try to keep up, eh?

That would be the part where you go on to say "willingly and knowingly rejected Him". You see if someone "willingly and knowingly" rejects something it means they believe it to be a real thing which is kind of the opposite of the defining characteristic of atheism.

Looks like it will be difficult to keep up when I'm already ahead of you.

 

[ivebeenshown]

That would be the part where you go on to say "willingly and knowingly rejected Him". You see if someone "willingly and knowingly" rejects something it means they believe it to be a real thing which is kind of the opposite of the defining characteristic of atheism.

Looks like it will be difficult to keep up when I'm already ahead of you.

Good point, Belk. This is why the Catholic Church teaches that those who through no fault of their own are unable to comprehend the Gospel of Christ are not damned just because of their predicament.

 

[razeontherock]

That would be the part where you go on to say "willingly and knowingly rejected Him". You see if someone "willingly and knowingly" rejects something it means they believe it to be a real thing

No, not at all.

 

[razeontherock]

This is why the Catholic Church teaches that those who through no fault of their own are unable to comprehend the Gospel of Christ are not damned just because of their predicament.

This is an entirely different subject than anything I was addressing. The rare atheist who has knowingly and willingly rejected Him, could merely have decided He doesn't exist. (Which is at least one definition of atheism)

 

[SithDoughnut]

This is flawed reasoning.

But it's your reasoning.

Let me explain. If you want to say that God is the origin of existence then you define God as such.

God: The origin of existence

This means that whatever the origin of existence turns out to be in terms of properties, it can be rightly called God. However, if you want to say that God is also omnipotent, you create two possible origins of existence. The alternative we will call Dog.

God: The omnipotent origin of existence
Dog: The non-omnipotent origin of existence

Now you've added another property to the definition of God, you've created the possibility of an alternative origin of existence that does not have the new property.

The only way "existence without God" could be considered nonsensical is if God is the necessary origin of existence, and there are no possible alternatives. If that's the case, then you can only define God as "the origin of existence". Anything more, and you create the possibility of Dog, and the term "existence without God" is no longer nonsensical; Dog could have caused existence instead.

Basically, what I'm saying is that your initial statement is wrong. "Existence without God" is not a nonsensical statement, because there are alternative possibilities that are not God.

 

[Belk]

No, not at all.

Yes, for reals and true.

 

[razeontherock]

But it's your reasoning.

Let me explain. If you want to say that God is the origin of existence then you define God as such.

God: The origin of existence

This means that whatever the origin of existence turns out to be in terms of properties, it can be rightly called God. However, if you want to say that God is also omnipotent, you create two possible origins of existence. The alternative

Strawman. You're going in circles. Atheists aren't supposed to like that!

 

[mzungu]

Yes then, thank you. It's just as I expected, in all these verses Jesus is speaking to the Jews. Then after this in Luke 22:20 Jesus says "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Christians are not Jewish and are not under the old covenant. We don't follow the law of the old testament. The Jews that follow Jesus and all Christians are under the new covenant and follow the teaching of the new testament.

No he specifically said “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished."

So since neither heaven nor earth has passed away. Then the covenant still stands.
By the way; Jesus was always referring to the OT since the NT was not yet written in his lifetime.
Of course the Bible is full of conflicting verses which is a testament to the many authors involved.

First you denied that Jesus even said what I posted and now you insist that your interpretation is more valid.

If you are going to go this route of interpret as you like then we cannot discuss further and call it quits!

 

[mzungu]

You might learn to rightly divide the word someday instead of just being abull in a china shop with it, but till then:



Note that my responses are in red. You have really failed to support your position as anything other than hateful and bigoted, or at best completely misinformed.

My My! I posted direct passages from the Bible that proved that Jesus did indeed command us to keep to the OT laws and all you can do is insult me

 

[SithDoughnut]

Strawman. You're going in circles. Atheists aren't supposed to like that!

If I'm misunderstanding your argument, feel free to explain. Don't just attempt to point things out without explanation, because then I can't tell if you've actually got a point or you just misunderstood something. I'm only going in circles because you haven't managed to move in a straight line yet. A conversation is a dialogue, not one person trying to talk while the other just shouts "strawman! circles! wrong!".

There is no other way for "existence without God" to be a nonsensical statement other than the one that I posted. Well, there is: if you can demonstrate God being the origin of existence as an irrefutable fact, then the statement also becomes nonsensical. Good luck with that one though.

 

[mzungu]

Strawman. You're going in circles. Atheists aren't supposed to like that!

So why don't you give us evidence of your God? Hearsay is not evidence and only empirical evidence which can be falsified is allowed.

Failure to do so will mean two things:

1) If God exists then all manner of supernatural beings exist. This includes all the Gods believed by people to exist. Also leprechauns, fairies, etc.


2) No Deity exists and in fact no supernatural beings for that matter.

The onus is on you to prove God's existence and not on us to prove the opposite. Otherwise anyone can say something like "FSM is the creator of all things and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise".

 

[Nostromo]

Strawman. You're going in circles. Atheists aren't supposed to like that!

Wow, criticise one error in reasoning with another, nice one.

 

[TomZzyzx]

No he specifically said "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished."

So since neither heaven nor earth has passed away. Then the covenant still stands.
By the way; Jesus was always referring to the OT since the NT was not yet written in his lifetime.
Of course the Bible is full of conflicting verses which is a testament to the many authors involved.

First you denied that Jesus even said what I posted and now you insist that your interpretation is more valid.

If you are going to go this route of interpret as you like then we cannot discuss further and call it quits!

Here we go again, another Atheist misrepresenting what the bible says or what a Christian says. So what else is new. If you re-read my post again, I asked you where in the bible does Jesus say "adhere to the scriptures" because I could not find it. How is that denying that Jesus never said it? It's not. In response to you statements; I agree Jesus said "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished", and I agree the old covenant still stands, for the Jews only. Jesus instituted a "new covenant" for Jews who believe in Jesus and all Christians. Of course it looks like the bible is full of conflicting verses, if you don't understand it. Again, I never denied that Jesus said what you posted, and of course I believe my interpretation is more valid. You believe you interpretation is more valid, what's the difference? Its up to you if you want to "call it quits", if not please try to quote me correctly.