Does morality exist without God?

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

Does morality exist without God? Why would it?
OR/
Why would it not?
There is secular morality and there is God's morality.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 56: 8-9


we can treat people who we can see with respect n treat GOD with disarray and

how can we treat each other with no love whom we see daily but loves GOD whom we can not

vice versa ,,,...

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Does morality exist without God? Why would it?
OR/
Why would it not?

I would say that yes, morality exists without God and it does because we can determine the rightness and wrongness of things based on principles that don't require positing God's existence, such as love and the like. Using those principles, we can generate a sufficient morality, even if it isn't perfect

There is secular morality and there is God's morality.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 56: 8-9

In other words, there is morality free from religious compulsion and there is morality with religious compulsion. Am I right?

we can treat people who we can see with respect n treat GOD with disarray and

how can we treat each other with no love whom we see daily but loves GOD whom we can not

I treat God with the same respect I treat any general concept of something that doesn't reflect reality: respectful skepticism as to its reality in the world and respectful recognition of its conceptual existence alongside Thor, Amaterasu, Indra and the like.

 

[Zaac]

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another Romans 2:13-15

How on earth can morality exist without the Standard of Righteousness? God has written His truth on every man's heart, and that is why people have a conscience and know not to do certain things, like murder, even though no one tells them to not.

 

[Vasallus]

I would say nothing exists without God.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

How on earth can morality exist without the Standard of Righteousness? God has written His truth on every man's heart, and that is why people have a conscience and know not to do certain things, like murder, even though no one tells them to not

Righteousness and morality are separate by nature, considering one of them is dependent on God's perspective and the other is a more objective standard that people can agree upon without recourse to God. I never considered murder or theft justified in and of themselves. Killing in self defense or letting someone die by their wishes are hardly immoral and many people wouldn't necessarily have a problem with either even if they did believe in a soul.

For you to think that people need some authority to tell them that murder is bad is to have little to no trust in humanity, but you've demonstrated that tendency in other threads already, so I'm not surprised at this anti-humanist rhetoric.

 

[Zaac]

Righteousness and morality are separate by nature, considering one of them is dependent on God's perspective and the other is a more objective standard that people can agree upon without recourse to God.

Everbody who creates a fake god wants everything to be subject to his own whims. God is God alone. An objective standard plays no part in His truth as it is what HE says it is.

So yes, this is Zaac towing the Christian party line again. As much as some would like to separate themselves from God's authority, it cannot be done. He will judge by His standard whether or not we think it is needed.

For you to think that people need some authority to tell them that murder is bad is to have little to no trust in humanity,

Of course I have no trust in humanity. My trust is in Jesus Christ. I know my wicked heart so why would I trust in men whose hearts are just as wicked?

53 million babies murdered since 1973 in the United States. Apparently people haven't gotten it yet.

but you've demonstrated that tendency in other threads already, so I'm not surprised at this anti-humanist rhetoric.

You shouldn't be. I make no qualms at all in being quite frank that I am not a secular humanist. Man is rotten to the core and absent Jesus Christ, we'd all be deserving of hell because of our wickedness.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Everbody who creates a fake god wants everything to be subject to his own whims. God is God alone. An objective standard plays no part in His truth as it is what HE says it is.

I implied in no way that I wanted everything to be subject to my whims and for you to say that is not only unjustified, but borderline prejudiced against me because I'm atheist. If an objective standard is based on what someone says, it's not really objective anymore, since it's become subjective.

So yes, this is Zaac towing the Christian party line again. As much as some would like to separate themselves from God's authority, it cannot be done. He will judge by His standard whether or not we think it is needed.

You persist in your delusion, I'll go along with reality and its harshness that exists even without God.

Of course I have no trust in humanity. My trust is in Jesus Christ. I know my wicked heart so why would I trust in men whose hearts are just as wicked?

Your heart is no more wicked than any other person. You seem to want to guilt trip yourself into feeling like you cannot be trusted, when there are plenty of things you trust yourself to do without consciously recognizing God.

53 million babies murdered since 1973 in the United States. Apparently people haven't gotten it yet.

Not touching that one since you're painting this rhetoric in purely emotional terms, which renders your argument less than even moderately persuasive.

You shouldn't be. I make no qualms at all in being quite frank that I am not a secular humanist. Man is rotten to the core and absent Jesus Christ, we'd all be deserving of hell because of our wickedness.

As another poster said, humanism is actually rooted in Christian history quite prominently for a time, particularly in earlier history, but even as late as Erasmus, a contemporary to Martin Luther, who you probably have respect for, lol. I never claimed you were a secular humanist. One can be a humanist and be a Christian, they're not fundamentally at odds unless you're so fatalist and anti humanist in your theology that you regard humans as worms.

 

[Zaac]

I implied in no way that I wanted everything to be subject to my whims and for you to say that is not only unjustified,

I didn't say implied and the statement was not specific to you.

but borderline prejudiced against me because I'm atheist.

Who is borderline prejudiced against you because you are an atheist?

If an objective standard is based on what someone says, it's not really objective anymore, since it's become subjective.

Morality is based in Christ.

You persist in your delusion, I'll go along with reality and its harshness that exists even without God.

I love the way people continue in "reality" as though God isn't aware of "reality".

Your heart is no more wicked than any other person. You seem to want to guilt trip yourself into feeling like you cannot be trusted, when there are plenty of things you trust yourself to do without consciously recognizing God.

You're funny. No guilt trip and I didn't say anything about my heart being MORE wicked than any other person.

Not touching that one since you're painting this rhetoric in purely emotional terms, which renders your argument less than even moderately persuasive.

The problem is you think I'm arguing. Why would I argue with someone over God's truth? It is what it is. I don't have to persuade anyone. That's a work of the Holy Spirit.

As another poster said, humanism is actually rooted in Christian history quite prominently for a time, particularly in earlier history, but even as late as Erasmus, a contemporary to Martin Luther, who you probably have respect for, lol. I never claimed you were a secular humanist.

I didn't say that you did.

One can be a humanist and be a Christian, they're not fundamentally at odds unless you're so fatalist and anti humanist in your theology that you regard humans as worms.

Notice I mentioned a particular type of humanist.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

I didn't say implied and the statement was not specific to you.

So I'm NOT the kind of atheist who wants to do this? Maybe you could say this is a tendency with SOME atheists. That would be a fair assessment.

Who is borderline prejudiced against you because you are an atheist?

You, because you think you know everything about me when in fact you're projecting a stereotype of a raving atheist on anyone who happens to not believe in God.

Morality is based in Christ.

I thought righteousness was based in Christ. Morality can just come about with any person. Drich said something to that effect. I can be moral without believing in God, but I can't be righteous before God without believing in God and Jesus.

I love the way people continue in "reality" as though God isn't aware of "reality".

That presumes God exists as an axiom, which is unjustified, since I find it only complicates an already complex world of humans.

You're funny. No guilt trip and I didn't say anything about my heart being MORE wicked than any other person.

If everyone's equally bad, that doesn't mean we can't trust everyone to some extent. Do you trust your bank? Your friends? Your school? Your employer?

The problem is you think I'm arguing. Why would I argue with someone over God's truth? It is what it is. I don't have to persuade anyone. That's a work of the Holy Spirit.

Then make it about your beliefs and not about what is absolutely true, since you're not God and you could be wrong.

I didn't say that you did.



Notice I mentioned a particular type of humanist.

So you're a Christian humanist perhaps?

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

please ..


lets answer the topic ,,, n no off topic discussions .. please

 

[ToHoldNothing]

I did, problem is, people seem to be unwilling to consider an alternative position or consider whether their own position is cogent or even sensible to an outsider. If not, perhaps their religion is more of a mystery cultus than they realize. Just food for thought on morality from the divine.

 

[MoonLancer]

Does morality exist without God? Why would it?
OR/
Why would it not?
There is secular morality and there is God's morality.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 56: 8-9


we can treat people who we can see with respect n treat GOD with disarray and

how can we treat each other with no love whom we see daily but loves GOD whom we can not

vice versa ,,,...

Well morality is culturally driven and different in different parts of the world. If it was driven by god wouldn't it be a tad more unified?

 

[Skeptic90]

Christians,

Would you agree with most theists that the punishment for sin is hell, and the reward for a good life is heaven?

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

could ethics / morals be affiliated to religious context?

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Related to religion, yes; dependent on it, no.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Something being faulty doesn't imply it is meaningless, nor does morality always manifest in cliche ways, but merely traditional or commonplace ways. The Golden Rule comes to mind as a secular morality that is popularized in Christianity through Jesus' teachings and enumeration of it in the Gospels.

The Bible is hardly isolated from all forms of literature, so that statement falls pretty flat on its face to me.

 

[MoonLancer]

Morality does exist outside of biblical context, but it's cliché, faulty, and meaningless. It's those sappy Hallmark greeting cards that you can find at your local drugstore. What I've found is that the bible is isolated from all forms of literature, so I seek to isolate myself from the world.

If you isolate yourself from the world you also isolate yourself from the ability to demonstrate morality in relation to others.

Morality kind of looses its point then.

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

we have a conscience



we have influences from within internally and without externally

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

two wrongs dont make a right..

why two negatives make a positive in math?

anyways .. explain this to me..

1 why are there a "WHITE LIE" and a "BLACK LIE" ??



and



2 why are there "white magic" and " black magic" ??




and




3 for example , Polygamy is bad ..

how can a marriage Polygamist STILL DATE ANOTHER WOMAN WHO MAY BECOME HIS POTENTIAL -- ISNT THAT ADULTERY??



MORALS ARE STANDARDS AND PARAMETERS... IF THESE morals are disobedied then consequences will definitely follow thereafter... IF YOU obey the moral laws then you have no worries..

ARE THE 10 TEN COMMANDMENTS "done away with" or abolished" ??

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

SO IN LIFE, are some people right and some people are wrong?

OR everyone is right definitely.. therefore no one is wrong..?