Does morality exist without God?

[chris4243]

And this is why some have said that they "know" intelligence develops after birth. Acquired knowledge can be measured to increase, but not intelligence.

My post was about IQ, not knowledge. IQ is a measure that (supposedly) doesn't depend on a person's knowledge (but in reality does a little). IQ can be increased, though mostly during early development.

 

[razeontherock]

My post was about IQ, not knowledge. IQ is a measure that (supposedly) doesn't depend on a person's knowledge (but in reality does a little). IQ can be increased, though mostly during early development.

Well this little tangent is interesting. Giving an IQ test to an infant wouldn't yield meaningful results, nor would it to someone just learning to read. The same person devouring every bit of reading they could would then score much higher, but there's nothing to indicate their intelligence actually increased.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If we define God as existence itself -- not its other participants, either individually or as a sum -- then morality could not exist without God.

And if we don't define existence itself as God, but simply refer to it as the natural universe, then morality could exist without God.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ToddNotTodd]

And if we don't define existence itself as God, but simply refer to it as the natural universe, then morality could exist without God.

But if we define Todd as existence itself, you can't have morality without me. Which I completely agree with...

 

[chris4243]

Well this little tangent is interesting. Giving an IQ test to an infant wouldn't yield meaningful results, nor would it to someone just learning to read. The same person devouring every bit of reading they could would then score much higher, but there's nothing to indicate their intelligence actually increased.

No need to test infants -- they can test identical twins, fraternal twins, twins raised separately, brothers, etc. Such tests will distinguish between genetic factors and environmental factors. They can also test younger children and older children and adults, to see how IQ progresses in an individual, and correlate it to environmental factors.

On yet another tangent, it turns out that people with a higher IQ are more sexually attractive. It is likely that intelligence is a proxy for genetic fitness and health, given that so many bad things have a side effect of reducing IQ.

 

[quatona]

If we define God as existence itself -- not its other participants, either individually or as a sum -- then morality could not exist without God.

You´d get there even easier if you´d simply define God as the source of morality or morality itself.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I define myself as correct.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

Wait I'm confused; does morality = Todd or Mark?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
~Abraham Lincoln


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

Mark, I'm pretty sure we have rules against sanity in these parts ...

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

can you love GOD or lust GOD ??
we exist for the purpose of GOD ... not men

 

[monkeyl]

Of course it does. I might argue that my sense of morality is stronger than that of many Christians because I have chosen for myself, for my own reasons, to treat people well and to be a good person, with no promise of heaven or fear of hell to encourage me.

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

why r u superior??

Of course it does. I might argue that my sense of morality is stronger than that of many Christians because I have chosen for myself, for my own reasons, to treat people well and to be a good person, with no promise of heaven or fear of hell to encourage me.

 

[Tears4You]

Of course it does. I might argue that my sense of morality is stronger than that of many Christians because I have chosen for myself, for my own reasons, to treat people well and to be a good person, with no promise of heaven or fear of hell to encourage me.

Bravo. I agree completely. As human beings we have a sense of existence and, therefore, have the ability to choose right from wrong. Even before doctrine religion, human beings were able to discipher good vs bad. To make someone choose "good" for fear of "damnation" or death is not morality by choice.

 

[rubicontwentytwelve]

Man has been operating according to his inate (instinctual) morality since Eve chose to do so and Adam called her 'life'.....

Man, except under certain limited circumstances and occasions, never has lived under God's teachng of morality; the most recent being the establishment of the U.S Constitution in the late 1700's which Americans promptly dismissed in 1825 / 1829 in favor of establishing their own laws and righteousness according to force (will) of popular opinion (majority rule).

 

[Tears4You]

Well, in all fairness, Church and State should be separate.

 

[razeontherock]

To make someone choose "good" for fear of "damnation" or death is not morality by choice.

Hmmm, does this not seem to contradict Proverbs 16:6?

"by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil."

Don't get me wrong, Love is a more excellent way! But when confronted with temptation, fearing God's Judgment as a means of firming up conviction is definitely the Holy Spirit in action, consistent with Isaiah 12:

"the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this [is] known in all the earth. Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great [is] the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee."

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Hmmm, does this not seem to contradict Proverbs 16:6?

"by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil."

Don't get me wrong, Love is a more excellent way! But when confronted with temptation, fearing God's Judgment as a means of firming up conviction is definitely the Holy Spirit in action, consistent with Isaiah 12:

"the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this [is] known in all the earth. Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great [is] the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee."

As I recall "Fear" today does not carry the same meaning as "Fear" in the past.
You might say that what was then called fear is now called respect.
So it is not that the verse is telling you to do good because you are scared of god, but out of respect for him.

 

[razeontherock]

Nice! Yet there remain elements of both:

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath."

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Nice! Yet there remain elements of both:

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath."

Well I agree that the very existance of hell and its mentioning at all, are enough to convincingly claim that anything a christian does is (at least) in part motivated by the desire to not end up in hell.

Though I've met christians that do not believe in hell, the Jehova's withnesses for instance.

I like to believe that the christians themselfs atleast do not see it that way. But perhaps I am naive.