Does morality exist without God?

[Zebra1552]

Who else do you worship because of gratitude? Anyone? If not, why not?

I don't know anyone else who created the universe, loves me, and wants a relationship with me all at the same time, nevermind all the other things He's done for me. Why should I worship anyone- or anything- else?

 

[sandwiches]

I don't know anyone else who created the universe, loves me, and wants a relationship with me all at the same time, nevermind all the other things He's done for me. Why should I worship anyone- or anything- else?

A couple of questions:
1) Do you feel that whoever loves you, created the universe, wants relationship with you all at the same time is worthy of worship?

2) Do you believe that God would want to be worshiped or would have a greater respect and appreciation for you if you worshiped him?

 

[Zebra1552]

A couple of questions:
1) Do you feel that whoever loves you, created the universe, wants relationship with you all at the same time is worthy of worship?

Of course, in addition to the many other things like Jesus on the cross and whatnot.

2) Do you believe that God would want to be worshiped or would have a greater respect and appreciation for you if you worshiped him?

Not completely sure what you're asking.

 

[sandwiches]

Of course, in addition to the many other things like Jesus on the cross and whatnot.

Why do only those things deserve worship? Why not your mother or father who presumably cared for you? Why not the doctor who may have saved your life? Why not the policemen who watch for our safety? Why not the pilots who safely fly thousands of people around the Globe every day?

Not completely sure what you're asking.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. Do you think God cares if he's worshiped? Does he want to be worshiped?

 

[Skavau]

I don't know anyone else who created the universe, loves me, and wants a relationship with me all at the same time, nevermind all the other things He's done for me. Why should I worship anyone- or anything- else?

It is somewhat difficult for me (even speaking as an atheist, and an anti-theist) to congratulate God for the creation of everything (if he exists) because he didn't work for his ability, or powers. That is to say that they are just there and always have been. I'd be nothing compared to said God, and his power would still be as powerful but if said position is inherent then I don't see how anything he does could be anything less than expected.

 

[sandwiches]

It is somewhat difficult for me (even speaking as an atheist, and an anti-theist) to congratulate God for the creation of everything (if he exists) because he didn't work for his ability, or powers. That is to say that they are just there and always have been. I'd be nothing compared to said God, and his power would still be as powerful but if said position is inherent then I don't see how anything he does could be anything less than expected.

This is a good point and I never thought about it. Respect and admiration is earned and if we go by this deity's track record of human and animal suffering, it wouldn't look like a very respectable entity.

 

[belarm]

Infanticide is the homicide of an infant; it can describe what might amount to a cultural act or an offence defined by the victim's age.

How, exactly, does killing an infant not constitute homicide? Did the infant already do something which would earn them the death penalty?

As to the quote from Psalms, if you don't like that one, how about Isaiah 13:15-16?

15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives violated.​

In this case, God says he'll tap the Medes to perform the extermination, rather than his chosen people. I see no difference; he still killed babies.

We can argue about the definition of genocide at a later time; suffice it to say, for now, that I would consider those acts described as genocide because they/He attempted to destroy an entire culture.

Oh, and bonus points: according the KJV, 'violated', should be read 'raped'.

Both from Wikipedia. What God commanded in the OT was not murder, therefore ruling out infanticide. You would also need to show that God intended to wipe out an entire people group: Since God is quite capable of doing this and didn't, it's safe to say that intent wasn't there, making any command to take a city no command of genocide, merely of war.

Killing non-combatants is not an act of war. It is murder.

It means that by today's standards, that which is commanded in the OT before 587 BC was for that time. You cannot possibly say with any amount of reasoning that God's laws then are applicable and judgable by today's standards because you ignore the context in making such a claim.

I cannot reasonably say the laws of the Old Testament should be followed today because said laws are barbaric, antiquated, and capricious.

You have stated in previous posts that which laws are to be followed changes over time, but the principles behind them remain throughout time. I would actually agree that certain ideas are common to all successful cultures: prohibition of murder, theft, or destruction of someone else's property being chief among them. The golden rule is a good moral compass, as well. Beyond those, which are independently expressed in other treatises on law and morality, which principals from the bible do you feel are preserved well and intact enough to constitute an absolute morality, or a form of morality which is only possible with the help of your holy texts?

PS: I must have transcribed the passages from Samuel incorrectly; I'll see if I can find the passages I was referring to. Sorry about that.

 

[sandwiches]

Killing non-combatants is not an act of war. It is murder.

Yea, I've never heard anyone make the case that killing babies and raping women is an act of war.

 

[Zebra1552]

Why do only those things deserve worship? Why not your mother or father who presumably cared for you? Why not the doctor who may have saved your life? Why not the policemen who watch for our safety? Why not the pilots who safely fly thousands of people around the Globe every day?

Why should they be worshiped? They're doing their job. They're doing something they have to. God did those things because He chose to with no obligations attached.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. Do you think God cares if he's worshiped? Does he want to be worshiped?

I'd hazard a guess that He cares. Can't say for sure.

 

[sandwiches]

Why should they be worshiped? They're doing their job. They're doing something they have to. God did those things because He chose to with no obligations attached.

You really feel that your parents took care of you because they HAD TO? You must have had a different childhood than I did. My parents took care of me and still do because they love me. They did not do this because they had to but because they wanted to. It seems to me that you feel as though no human does anything out of love or we only do things because we have to. It's a rather bleak view of life, in my opinion.

I'd hazard a guess that He cares. Can't say for sure.

But why worship and piety? Why not respect, love, affection, great admiration, awe, wonder, etc? Why subdue yourself to him?

 

[Zebra1552]

How, exactly, does killing an infant not constitute homicide? Did the infant already do something which would earn them the death penalty?

How does the killing of an infant always constitute infanticide? You're the one claiming it is infanticide. You tell me why it is. I've already explained why it isn't.

As to the quote from Psalms, if you don't like that one, how about Isaiah 13:15-16?

15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives violated.​

In this case, God says he'll tap the Medes to perform the extermination, rather than his chosen people. I see no difference; he still killed babies.

Extermination or justice?

Isa 13:11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant, and lay low the insolence of tyrants.

We can argue about the definition of genocide at a later time; suffice it to say, for now, that I would consider those acts described as genocide because they/He attempted to destroy an entire culture.

No, you made the claim you can show how it fits the definition rather than merely claiming it does. I've already explained why it doesn't.

Oh, and bonus points: according the KJV, 'violated', should be read 'raped'.

Oh? By whom? At whose order? In what context?

Killing non-combatants is not an act of war. It is murder.

That would be correct, if it were merely a war. Given that it's not war and justice is being carried out against those who deliberately violated God's commands- sin against an eternal being- I'm not inclined to call them 'innocent'.

I cannot reasonably say the laws of the Old Testament should be followed today because said laws are barbaric, antiquated, and capricious.

I believe we were talking about the Decalogue, not the entire OT. Stick to the issue.

You have stated in previous posts that which laws are to be followed changes over time, but the principles behind them remain throughout time.

Correct, which makes your preceding quote irrelevant.

I would actually agree that certain ideas are common to all successful cultures: prohibition of murder, theft, or destruction of someone else's property being chief among them. The golden rule is a good moral compass, as well. Beyond those, which are independently expressed in other treatises on law and morality, which principals from the bible do you feel are preserved well and intact enough to constitute an absolute morality, or a form of morality which is only possible with the help of your holy texts?

I never claimed there was an absolute morality exclusive to the Bible. I did say that the Bible has principles that do not change in all but their application throughout time and culture. One of these principles that would be exclusive is reverence and obedience to the Creator rather than the created.

 

[Zebra1552]

You really feel that your parents took care of you because they HAD TO? You must have had a different childhood than I did.

Humans are generally different and unique from one another. It should go without saying I had a different childhood. And besides, isn't parenthood simply a biological process?

My parents took care of me and still do because they love me. They did not do this because they had to but because they wanted to.

Obviously they do this because they find meaning in doing so. If they did not, they are not very likely to continue.

It seems to me that you feel as though no human does anything out of love or we only do things because we have to. It's a rather bleak view of life, in my opinion.

Humans do things for a myriad of reasons. You listed a bunch of occupations and asked why they are not worthy of worship, and I answered because they are occupations. It is readily observed fact that man has affections and preferences, and that man must also work to make a living and somehow in doing so find meaning in such things. In this, man is obligated to find work they enjoy and this, in part, is obligation. It's not pessimism. It's reality.

But why worship and piety? Why not respect, love, affection, great admiration, awe, wonder, etc? Why subdue yourself to him?

Why shouldn't I? Is there a reason He isn't worthy of such things? What reason have I to not worship and obey?

 

[chris4243]

I don't recall any passages where God specifically tells people to worship Him.

Better work on your recall. The first four of the Ten Commandments deal with God; the fourth one sets a whole day apart to worship Him in (it's not just not working, but keeping the Sabbath holy), and also they are told to serve, worship, and pay tithes to God.

eg
2 Kings 17
36 But the LORD, who brought you up out of Egypt with mighty power and outstretched arm, is the one you must worship. To him you shall bow down and to him offer sacrifices. 37 You must always be careful to keep the decrees and regulations, the laws and commands he wrote for you. Do not worship other gods. 38 Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. 39 Rather, worship the LORD your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies.”

 

[Zebra1552]

It is somewhat difficult for me (even speaking as an atheist, and an anti-theist) to congratulate God for the creation of everything (if he exists) because he didn't work for his ability, or powers. That is to say that they are just there and always have been. I'd be nothing compared to said God, and his power would still be as powerful but if said position is inherent then I don't see how anything he does could be anything less than expected.

How do you know that these attributes were not chosen and that they are inherent?

 

[Zebra1552]

Better work on your recall.

Keep it civil.

The first four of the Ten Commandments deal with God; the fourth one sets a whole day apart to worship Him in (it's not just not working, but keeping the Sabbath holy), and also they are told to serve, worship, and pay tithes to God.

The Sabbath is for rest, not worship. It's stated right in the Decalogue:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work--you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

eg
2 Kings 17
36 But the LORD, who brought you up out of Egypt with mighty power and outstretched arm, is the one you must worship. To him you shall bow down and to him offer sacrifices. 37 You must always be careful to keep the decrees and regulations, the laws and commands he wrote for you. Do not worship other gods. 38 Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. 39 Rather, worship the LORD your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies.”

That is historical narrative and really God making an argument for why they should do something. Hardly a command, as it's not even quoted elsewhere, it's a summary. You shouldn't do this, you should do this because XYZ.

This isn't God commanding people to worship Him.

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Many see Just Jesus speaking and Not The Spirit of God Speaking. Making people Spiritually Discerned. They see just flesh speaking and not Spirit.

 

[belarm]

I believe we were talking about the Decalogue, not the entire OT. Stick to the issue.

Great idea; the original issue was whether morality can exist without God. I'll be happy to debate the other points we've been going back and forth on elsewhere, but right now we're in danger of further derailing the thread. Let's get back to the morality bit.

I never claimed there was an absolute morality exclusive to the Bible. I did say that the Bible has principles that do not change in all but their application throughout time and culture. One of these principles that would be exclusive is reverence and obedience to the Creator rather than the created.

Many religions espouse the virtues of revering and obeying the supernatural being(s) rather than the material world. Zoroastrianism, for example, features monotheism and the view that this life is a temporary state. Of course, no atheistic text will contain this concept, as we do not believe there is any such thing.

I fail to see, however, how this constitutes a moral precept; it creates no obligation to treat other humans, or the planet, with respect. Taking the long view of things is a good thing, but worshiping the Creator does not necessarily entail doing so: it could be, and has been argued that, since the end of the world will be here soon, we do not need to make strides toward making the world a better place. (I classify those people as the lunatic fringe, but I bring them up to illustrate that reverence for the Creator does not have to entail better behavior)

Is there anything else you consider exclusive to the Bible?

 

[Zebra1552]

I fail to see, however, how this constitutes a moral precept; it creates no obligation to treat other humans, or the planet, with respect. Taking the long view of things is a good thing, but worshiping the Creator does not necessarily entail doing so: it could be, and has been argued that, since the end of the world will be here soon, we do not need to make strides toward making the world a better place. (I classify those people as the lunatic fringe, but I bring them up to illustrate that reverence for the Creator does not have to entail better behavior)

Is there anything else you consider exclusive to the Bible?

I honestly don't care what is or isn't exclusive to the Bible or see what it has to do with the price of lobster in MN.

Given the numerous morals created by a Christian God, it does constitute a moral precept.

 

[chris4243]

Keep it civil.

You too. Honesty is more important than not being offended, so sorry that I call you dishonest but you are.

The Sabbath is for rest, not worship. It's stated right in the Decalogue:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work--you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

Really, it says "not for worship" does it? What about the rest of the commandment that you conveniently ignore? What do you think it means to keep the Sabbath holy?

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

If resting is holy then I know a lot of very holy people . But you can see quite clearly that there is more to the sabbath than just resting, also "keeping it holy" and that it is "to the Lord".

 

[Zebra1552]

You too.

I have done nothing to insult you so your charge is inapplicable.

Honesty is more important than not being offended, so sorry that I call you dishonest but you are.

Ad hominem attacks don't help your position. If you expect me to listen to you, then you can treat me respectfully. If you cannot do that, then we are done here.

Really, it says "not for worship" does it?

It doesn't say it is for worship, it says it is for rest. Given that you claimed it is for worship and given what the text actually says, you are incorrect in your claim that it is for worship. It may be implied, but that is not the reason given.

What about the rest of the commandment that you conveniently ignore?

If you're going to accuse someone of something you'd do well to provide an example of the accusation and provide information that supports the validity and veracity of that accusation rather than just attacking me.

What do you think it means to keep the Sabbath holy?

Just what it says. Keep it set apart for a specific purpose, and the stated purpose is rest with no work. This begs the question, what constitutes work and what constitutes rest?