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Does morality exist without God?

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belarm

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I honestly don't care what is or isn't exclusive to the Bible or see what it has to do with the price of lobster in MN.

Given the numerous morals created by a Christian God, it does constitute a moral precept.

If you do not believe that the laws in the Bible are to be enforced in all ages, and make no claims as to the exclusivity of the broader moral principles espoused therein, then what are you arguing, exactly?

I'm not being flippant; I'm genuinely confused as to your position.
 
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Zebra1552

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If you do not believe that the laws in the Bible are to be enforced in all ages, and make no claims as to the exclusivity of the broader moral principles espoused therein, then what are you arguing, exactly?

I'm not being flippant; I'm genuinely confused as to your position.
Why do I need to be arguing something? Why can't I just discuss things?
 
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Zebra1552

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Because this thread poses a question, and the point of the discussion is to debate our viewpoints on it?
We've been discussing it. The point of discussion is different for each person. I don't discuss to debate, and I don't debate to take sides. I do both for education and perspective. Now, if you are done harassing me about my motivations for contributing in this thread let's keep discussing.
 
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belarm

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We've been discussing it. The point of discussion is different for each person. I don't discuss to debate, and I don't debate to take sides. I do both for education and perspective. Now, if you are done harassing me about my motivations for contributing in this thread let's keep discussing.

I in no way meant to harass you about your motivations. I was simply confused as to your position. Sorry if it came off otherwise.

So here's my position: The morality of the Bible is inferior to those that continually evolve and are based on logic and informed by real-world evidence. Drawing on ancient literature for inspiration while developing your world view and moral philosophy is well and good, but using a religious text is inherently dangerous if you actually view it to be holy. Deciding that a book is the inspired word of God makes it difficult to interpret or change with the times, and creates a world view that is static and anachronistic.
 
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Icewater

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Absolute morality doesn't exist even with God. Fact is, even if you accept that God's moral code is perfect simply because it's God's -- something that, might I remind you, is not self-evident -- our understanding of it is inherently far from perfect. All we, or rather, Christians, have to go off is the Bible. The Bible was written by humans, using human language, and is thus imperfect.

Some try to argue that the Bible is "God inspired" or "divinely inspired", but what does this really mean? That it is written in such a way that all you must do is read it with a genuine desire to learn and you'll immediately pick up the correct interpretation? Then why are there so many different sects of Christianity with blatantly contradictory views?
 
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AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2

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i understand your view


hm hm


what is forgiveness?


what is wrong?


does an atheist believe adultery is wrong ? why?


what is a pinciple...


therefore either way...

morals are unexplainable in the secular world,,

but spiritually they have been answered


Absolute morality doesn't exist even with God. Fact is, even if you accept that God's moral code is perfect simply because it's God's -- something that, might I remind you, is not self-evident -- our understanding of it is inherently far from perfect. All we, or rather, Christians, have to go off is the Bible. The Bible was written by humans, using human language, and is thus imperfect.

Some try to argue that the Bible is "God inspired" or "divinely inspired", but what does this really mean? That it is written in such a way that all you must do is read it with a genuine desire to learn and you'll immediately pick up the correct interpretation? Then why are there so many different sects of Christianity with blatantly contradictory views?
 
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belarm

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I think this topic is why my half-sister doesn't call me anymore; she maintained, during a debate, that the bible was a good moral guide (and that it was the oldest book in existence...). I threw around a few verses from Leviticus to support my point, and she eventually asked me what I would do if I died and found myself standing before the pearly gates.

I told her the only appropriate thing to say to the god of the Bible is 'non serviam'. Even if He exists and has the ability to punish us eternally for not believing in Him, He is still not worthy of respect, let alone worship.

The contradictions and rather gruesome edicts, however, are not the worst part about the entire concept of Jehovah. If He is omniscient, He knows before you are born whether you will spend eternity in bliss or unimaginable pain. I can think of no justification for creating a sentient being knowing full well that it will be condemned to a literal eternity of suffering; better to never be born at all.
 
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Zebra1552

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I in no way meant to harass you about your motivations. I was simply confused as to your position. Sorry if it came off otherwise.

So here's my position: The morality of the Bible is inferior to those that continually evolve and are based on logic and informed by real-world evidence.
Show that the Bible's morals do not evolve and are not based on logic and informed by real world evidence.

Drawing on ancient literature for inspiration while developing your world view and moral philosophy is well and good, but using a religious text is inherently dangerous if you actually view it to be holy. Deciding that a book is the inspired word of God makes it difficult to interpret or change with the times, and creates a world view that is static and anachronistic.
Deciding that a book is the inspired word of God still leaves it open for interpretation.
 
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belarm

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Show that the Bible's morals do not evolve and are not based on logic and informed by real world evidence.
Words on paper do not change over time, and since they are based on the supernatural, the edicts of the Bible are not constrained by the rules of logic or empirical evidence. There is, for example, no way to test the assertion that eating shellfish angers God.

Deciding that a book is the inspired word of God still leaves it open for interpretation.
True; everyone has their own interpretation of the Bible. Here's a question, though: is there anything that would convince you the Bible is wrong?
 
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Zebra1552

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Words on paper do not change over time,
The interpretation of those words does change.

and since they are based on the supernatural, the edicts of the Bible are not constrained by the rules of logic or empirical evidence. There is, for example, no way to test the assertion that eating shellfish angers God.
Non sequitor. Just because it is supernatural does not make it illogical: Only unscientific.

True; everyone has their own interpretation of the Bible. Here's a question, though: is there anything that would convince you the Bible is wrong?
If you have such magical evidence I'd love to see it. As I've been discussing this for several years, I've yet to see anything that refutes the reliability of the Bible. If such evidence existed I'd recognize it, but my faith that it exists dwindles with each passing year.
 
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belarm

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The interpretation of those words does change.
Of course. But the words themselves do not.


Non sequitor. Just because it is supernatural does not make it illogical: Only unscientific.
The Bible states both that God is omniscient, and that humans have free will. These are mutually exclusive concepts; they cannot logically exist in the same universe.


If you have such magical evidence I'd love to see it. As I've been discussing this for several years, I've yet to see anything that refutes the reliability of the Bible. If such evidence existed I'd recognize it, but my faith that it exists dwindles with each passing year.
If I had figured out how to not only prove a negative, but how to disprove the supernatural, you'd be more likely to see me on the talk show circuit than hanging out on a forum.;)

The reason I ask is to distinguish between the logical and faith-based views of reality. I can conceive of a situation, for example, that would convince me that an entity was, if not The One True God, at least powerful enough to be treated as such. If you cannot conceive of a fact that would change your belief, then you will always be bound by the parameters of that belief. That is the source of the dangerous tendency for stagnation inherent in religious world views - it is far too easy for people to use their immutable holy books as a divine justification for their own prejudices. By admitting that none of your beliefs are beyond refutation, you at least increase the chances that you will objectively evaluate those beliefs.
 
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Zebra1552

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The Bible states both that God is omniscient, and that humans have free will. These are mutually exclusive concepts; they cannot logically exist in the same universe.
Knowing what will happen is not the same as dictating it.


The reason I ask is to distinguish between the logical and faith-based views of reality. I can conceive of a situation, for example, that would convince me that an entity was, if not The One True God, at least powerful enough to be treated as such. If you cannot conceive of a fact that would change your belief, then you will always be bound by the parameters of that belief. That is the source of the dangerous tendency for stagnation inherent in religious world views - it is far too easy for people to use their immutable holy books as a divine justification for their own prejudices. By admitting that none of your beliefs are beyond refutation, you at least increase the chances that you will objectively evaluate those beliefs.
Great. I just love stereotypes.
 
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AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2

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I would like to see what our members would consider a perfect world.
I'll go first my idea of a perfect world.
A world free of the intervention of humans in regard to environmental issues.
A world free of racism, classism, and sexism.
A world free of crime.
A world free of greed.
A world free of Vanity.
A world free of war.
A world free of disease.
A world full of peace.
Man what a boring world that would be huh?
 
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DataPacRat

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I would like to see what our members would consider a perfect world.

Simple: One in which all of humanity's eggs aren't stuck in the single basket of Earth, such that a single planetary-scale extinction-level event could no longer potentially eliminate all sapience from the universe. If that's not accomplished, then nothing else we manage really matters, since eventually something or other /will/ exterminate life on this planet... and if it /is/ accomplished, /then/ we can finally relax a bit and focus on getting rid of all the minor annoyances suffered by humanity (and any other sapiences we create or discover), such as crime, tyranny, disease, and death.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I would like to see what our members would consider a perfect world.
I'll go first my idea of a perfect world.
A world free of the intervention of humans in regard to environmental issues.
A world free of racism, classism, and sexism.
A world free of crime.
A world free of greed.
A world free of Vanity.
A world free of war.
A world free of disease.
A world full of peace.
Man what a boring world that would be huh?

Boring? Not at all. Aside from the fact that we'd be dead. We can't have zero impact on the environment without becoming extinct. (Assuming that we didn't abandon the Earth and go live elsewhere.)

The rest of your list sounds fine (at least given my personal understanding of those words), except that I'd add "A world free of envy" to that list, and put that to the top of the list.

My list would also emphasize the presence of virtues such as rationality, prudence, honesty, integrity, justice, creativity, civility, kindness, sensitivity, generosity, and healthy pride. And, of course, free markets and strong individual rights.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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what is forgiveness?

It's when you decide that someone's apology for a misdeed is genuine, and you decide to trust them enough to re-establish a mutually beneficial relationship with them, instead of retaliating against them.

what is wrong?

Do you mean a moral wrong? It's when one is knowingly destructive of values that are nourishing to human life. I say "knowingly", because errors of knowledge can be excused. If someone doesn't realize that they are doing wrong, it's difficult to blame them for this.

does an atheist believe adultery is wrong ? why?

Roughly, I think that adultery is wrong when it threatens to damage the bonds of trust that make a mutually beneficial relationship possible. It is wrong because it threatens to destroy a value potentially nourishing to one's life, it may reduce the possibility of trusting relationships in the future, and it will decrease one's potential for self-respect, among other reasons.

what is a pinciple...

A moral principle? This is a cognitive method for determining morally acceptable courses of action given the circumstances.

morals are unexplainable in the secular world

They are entirely explanable.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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belarm

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Knowing what will happen is not the same as dictating it.
That it can be known requires that it is predestined (or deterministic, if you prefer). Omniscience and free will are as mutually exclusive as an irresistible force and an immovable object.


Great. I just love stereotypes.
Who did I stereotype with that paragraph? I didn't make any presumptions about you, and I'm simply pointing out the inherent danger in holding an immutable belief. The same warnings and dangers apply to any such belief - I feel that a belief that America is inherently superior to every other country, without qualification, is just as dangerous. I chose to address the danger in religious beliefs because it was topical.
 
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belarm

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morals are unexplainable in the secular world
Actually, some of our more basic moral precepts show up in 'lower' animals, as well. In addition to the expected kin selection, many social animals exhibit reciprocal (tit-for-tat) altruism, along with more complex forms up to and including outright self-sacrifice. This leads to an evolutionary advantage at the species level.
Altruism in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is also dealt with in evolutionary psychology - a field which has a long way to go, but shows a great deal of promise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology
 
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