Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

[Al Touthentop]

But works cannot save according to Paul.

Paul does not say that. You are failing to distinguish the kind of works he was talking about. Works of an obsolete law or works "of yourselves." Meaning, works that are not actually in obedience to God. The only works that save us are those works which he created us to walk in.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You seem to have a problem realizing the bible says that those in their flesh cannot please God! If you believe repenting is something that does not please God, then we can discuss that option, but you will need to show it from Scripture and not mere human speculation!

That’s a ridiculous assumption, that Jesus would give her time to repent while she was incapable of repentance. I can’t even stress how ridiculous that is.

 

[Al Touthentop]

You seem to have a problem realizing the bible says that those in their flesh cannot please God!

It does say that, but obviously you have no idea what that means. Every man is in his flesh from the day he is born to the day he dies.

Paul explained that to be of the spirit you had to set your mind on the spirit.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Only the born again have faith, it's a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Was Jesus lying? He said that it is inappropriate to expect God to give you faith. It's your job to have faith. When you have done what he has asked, then he lets you rest.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I did! The primary definition ( you do realize that each one of these is a different use of the word) is to lift up or elevate. And given that Jesus was using the example of a grape vine and that in His day Grapes were not grown on arbors, the primary definition is the one that would be understood.

What you have to do is to show why the primary, and th esecondary definition are not valid for this passage and one must go to the tertiary definition.

You are ignoring the definition that pertains to something that is attached to anything which is the situation with branches attached to the vine because you believe that no one who is in Christ can fall away. But what about verse 6 that specifically says that some will not abide/remain in Christ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I did! The primary definition ( you do realize that each one of these is a different use of the word) is to lift up or elevate. And given that Jesus was using the example of a grape vine and that in His day Grapes were not grown on arbors, the primary definition is the one that would be understood.

What you have to do is to show why the primary, and th esecondary definition are not valid for this passage and one must go to the tertiary definition.

Here’s another example of what happens to those who do not bear fruit.


“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Dave L]

Was Jesus lying? He said that it is inappropriate to expect God to give you faith. It's your job to have faith. When you have done what he has asked, then he lets you rest.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith [faithfulness],” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Paul does not say that. You are failing to distinguish the kind of works he was talking about. Works of an obsolete law or works "of yourselves." Meaning, works that are not actually in obedience to God. The only works that save us are those works which he created us to walk in.

works of the flesh = free will

 

[Dave L]

So then your saying that only one denomination of Christianity will be saved?

There are three groups throughout Christendom. 1) Those who believe God alone saves sinners. 2) Those who believe sinners save themselves taking God's advice (free will), And 3) those who save themselves without God's advice (free will).

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are three groups throughout Christendom. 1) Those who believe God alone saves sinners. 2) Those who believe sinners save themselves taking God's advice (free will), And 3) those who save themselves without God's advice (free will).

But even amongst Calvinists there are differences in scriptural interpretation thus making even more “Christs” as you put it that are being worshipped. I don’t see that being the case. I see many people seeking to honor God the way they believe He intends for them to. I don’t see them worshipping different gods just because they have a different understanding of scripture. They all seek to honor the One God of Israel. My intention was simply to convey that I’m not condemning you or anyone and I wanted to address you as a fellow brother in Christ, but it appears you rejected my offer of brotherly fellowship. Perhaps I didn’t convey my messages as kindly as I should’ve as I know it is often easy to mistake the manner of which someone intends to say something in text.

 

[Dave L]

But even amongst Calvinists there are differences in scriptural interpretation thus making even more “Christs” as you put it that are being worshipped. I don’t see that being the case. I see many people seeking to honor God the way they believe He intends for them to. I don’t see them worshipping different gods just because they have a different understanding of scripture. They all seek to honor the One God of Israel.

But as far as I know, they agree the will is not free. Free will = a different gospel.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But as far as I know, they agree the will is not free. Free will = a different gospel.

But is a person’s understanding of free will the only determining factor of whether a person is worshipping a different Christ or not? It would appear that any difference in interpretation would constitute a different understanding of who Christ is according to your original statement.

 

[Dave L]

But is a person’s understanding of free will the only determining factor of whether a person is worshipping a different Christ?

It's the false doctrine that makes people their own savior.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But as far as I know, they agree the will is not free. Free will = a different gospel.

any difference in scriptural interpretation would constitute a different gospel.

 

[Dave L]

any difference in scriptural interpretation would constitute a different gospel.

Free will = a different gospel.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's the false doctrine that makes people their own savior.

No not at all, that’s just the most obtuse way of possibly looking at it. Your intentionally ignoring the fact that God enables us to repent because you want to make it out to appear worse than it actually is.

 

[Dave L]

No not at all, that’s just the most obtuse way of possibly looking at it. Your intentionally ignoring the fact that God enables us to repent because you want to make it out to appear worse than it actually is.

God must save you before you can believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God must save you before you can believe.

That would make it God’s fault that some people don’t repent because they would be incapable of doing so unless He has enabled them to. When they stand before Him and He asks them why didn’t you repent they will say because you didn’t let me. Then God’s punishment upon them would be unjust because He did not enable them to have the ability to meet His expectation of repentance.

 

[Dave L]

That would make it God’s fault that some people don’t repent because they would be incapable of doing so unless He has enabled them to. When they stand before Him and He asks them why didn’t you repent they will say because you didn’t let me. Then God’s punishment upon them would be unjust because He did not enable them to have the ability to meet His expectation of repentance.

All are born sinful in Adam. God grants faith and repentance to some through a radical change in heart, called the New Birth. He withholds it from most. Free will can only mimic this through the flesh.

 

[Al Touthentop]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith [faithfulness],” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

This does not prove your doctrine. Peter says that the spirit is given to those who obey (Acts 5:32). It comes after belief and obedience, not prior to. So this faith here, is not the same faith required for salvation. Can't be. It is the evidence that a person is walking in the faith. It is the continued obedience of a person who is a believer, not a cause of obedience against his will.

In Ephesians Paul actually commands us to be filled with the Spirit (5:18). A command! And then he explains how it is done. By being obedient to Jesus' commands. He uses the same language in Colossians but instead of saying be filled with the spirit, he says "let the word of God dwell in you richly." Thus he equates being filled with the spirit to letting the word dwell in you, reconciling what Jesus said about this.

"The words I speak are spirit and they are life."