Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

[Dave L]

Nope. And that is not even on the table. The question is where are we told God predestined the fall of man?

God didn't fail because he knew what would be required of him to offer salvation to all.
That doesn't mean he had to predestine sin. Sin is merely our default mode of behavior. If we don't allow God to guide us continuously, it's the natural result.
It's like saying I planned my children's disobedience because I had a plan to discipline them if it happened.

Did he create all? Did he fumble the ball if Adam sinned? Or did he plan it? Putting the snake in the garden and all?

 

[renniks]

Did he create all? Did he fumble the ball if Adam sinned? Or did he plan it? Putting the snake in the garden and all?

Why is allowing free will fumbling the ball?
Why do you assume God has to plan everything that happened?
God puts the blame on man for his sin. That would be unjust if God rendered sin certain.

Satan is the chaos bringer. He's to blame for the fall, along with mankind. Don't blame God for something he doesn't do.

 

[Dave L]

Why is allowing free will fumbling the ball?
Why do you assume God has to plan everything that happened?
God puts the blame on man for his sin. That would be unjust if God rendered sin certain.

Satan is the chaos bringer. He's to blame for the fall, along with mankind. Don't blame God for something he doesn't do.

God created free will in people. Adam wanted to sin and freely chose to do so. But God ordered his steps.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You agree with the Catholics and have not refuted him or Luther or any others in that cause.

I agree with the Orthodox Catholics on the doctrines pertaining to salvation. It’s really unfortunate that so many people refute the RCC so much that they reject anything related to the word Catholic. I think that was Calvin and Luther’s handicap as well.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did he create all? Did he fumble the ball if Adam sinned? Or did he plan it? Putting the snake in the garden and all?

Just because it was part of the plan doesn’t mean that it was orchestrated by God.

I can plan to work on the highway and in my plan I can expect to need traffic control but the traffic itself is not of my doing.

 

[renniks]

God created free will in people. Adam wanted to sin and freely chose to do so. But God ordered his steps.

Ok, so you believe a contradiction. The question is why?
Scripture doesn't require you to embrace contradictions.

Only in the knowledge of God's plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God gives to created persons so that they are capable of loving him and loving one another.

There was another fall that preceded the fall of Man.

This "fall" consists in the free choice of created spirits, ( angels)who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign.

"You will be like God." The devil claimed. He"has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".

" the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." 1st John 3:8

Are you proposing that God sent Jesus to destroy what God caused in the garden?
Is God working against himself, or perhaps only playing games with us?

It is a great mystery that providence should permit the devil's activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."

God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God.

Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command.

In that sin man preferred himself to God and scorned him. He chose himself over and against God. This is the essence of sin, always pride, as this was Satan's original sin.

Created in a state of holiness, man was destined by God to remain holy and in communion with God. Sin broke this communion, and man has had the longing in his heart to get it back ever since.

Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay". Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground", for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.

Nowhere are we told God planned or caused this state of affairs.

 

[Dave L]

Ok, so you believe a contradiction. The question is why?
Scripture doesn't require you to embrace contradictions.

Only in the knowledge of God's plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God gives to created persons so that they are capable of loving him and loving one another.

There was another fall that preceded the fall of Man.

This "fall" consists in the free choice of created spirits, ( angels)who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign.

"You will be like God." The devil claimed. He"has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".

" the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." 1st John 3:8

Are you proposing that God sent Jesus to destroy what God caused in the garden?
Is God working against himself, or perhaps only playing games with us?

It is a great mystery that providence should permit the devil's activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."

God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God.

Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command.

In that sin man preferred himself to God and scorned him. He chose himself over and against God. This is the essence of sin, always pride, as this was Satan's original sin.

Created in a state of holiness, man was destined by God to remain holy and in communion with God. Sin broke this communion, and man has had the longing in his heart to get it back ever since.

Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay". Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground", for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.

Nowhere are we told God planned or caused this state of affairs.

Don't draw too many conclusions based on your misunderstanding. Free will has limits. Will to be perfect if it has no limits.

 

[Dave L]

Just because it was part of the plan doesn’t mean that it was orchestrated by God.

I can plan to work on the highway and in my plan I can expect to need traffic control but the traffic itself is not of my doing.

“A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure.” Proverbs 16:9 (AMP)

 

[Dave L]

I agree with the Orthodox Catholics on the doctrines pertaining to salvation. It’s really unfortunate that so many people refute the RCC so much that they reject anything related to the word Catholic. I think that was Calvin and Luther’s handicap as well.

So you are closer to the Catholics than to the Reformers?

 

[renniks]

Don't draw too many conclusions based on your misunderstanding. Free will has limits. Will to be perfect if it has no limits.

I give you scripture and you give me a non answer

 

[Dave L]

I give you scripture and you give me a non answer

Look around. Did God create this? Is it what he planned or did he fail?

 

[renniks]

“A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure.” Proverbs 16:9 (AMP)

Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans. Proverbs 16: 3

The verse you quoted is conditional upon this verse.

 

[Dave L]

Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans. Proverbs 16: 3

The verse you quoted is conditional upon this verse.

What about Pharaoh?

 

[renniks]

Look around. Did God create this? Is it what he planned or did he fail?

God created a perfect world. This one is far from perfect. And you offer only two options, and the options you offer aren't the only options.
Perhaps the option that is true is one you have never conceived of.

 

[renniks]

What about Pharaoh?

What about him? He hardened his heart and God used his rebellion for good, but only for those who trusted God.

 

[Dave L]

God created a perfect world. This one is far from perfect. And you offer only two options, and the options you offer aren't the only options.
Perhaps the option that is true is one you have never conceived of.

So God really messed up according to your view?

 

[Dave L]

What about him? He hardened his heart and God used his rebellion for good, but only for those who trusted God.

God hardened his heart.

 

[Dave L]

What about him? He hardened his heart and God used his rebellion for good, but only for those who trusted God.

God hardened his heart and that also caused him to harden it if you pay close attention.

 

[renniks]

So God really messed up according to your view?

You didn't even read what I wrote, obviously.

 

[Dave L]

You didn't even read what I wrote, obviously.

Do you think God failed by creating such a world as this?