Does man have a freewill ?

Clare73 said:

I guess Jesus got it wrong in Jn 8:34.

Can anyone choose to be sinless?

Then they are not free.

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You are equating the physical inability to the mental capability.

People without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love like Paul when he was Saul in Ro. 7, cannot physically do what the mentally want to do, so in that way they are slaves to sin.

Brightfame52 said:

Mans will isnt free from our sin nature, we are servants of sin naturally Jn 8:34

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Folks we are all by nature sinners, so we commit sin, hence we are servants or slaves of sins The word servant doulos means slave. Jesus uses the present tense is esti being actually a slave of sin, and this is even applying to very religious people ! We cant just exercise our freewill and stop being a slave to sin, it takes actual liberation.

Jesus told some more people Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus tells these people they will do the lust of their father the devil, they dont have a freewill choice not to do it. " ye will do" is present tense indicative, its certain that is all they will be doing, they are slaves to sin.

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Paul prior to becoming a Christian in Ro. 7, describes his free will mental choice being not to sin, but physically and mentally, he went on sinning. In Romans 8 Paul goes on to tell us, the indwelling Holy Spirit, if left unquenched, will not participate in sinning and thus can provide a way for Christian not to sin again.

Brightfame52 said:

Man is not free from being morally responsible to God, yet he is not free from his depraved nature, and cant stop sinning against God and accumulate guilt, unfortunately he is a slave to sin, and yet morally responsible.

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If a person is a slave to something, then they have no choice but to do it=no accountability.

fhansen said:

If a person is a slave to something, then they have no choice but to do it=no accountability.

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That's the kind of secular thinking that got us "free will" in the first place; i.e., "to be accountable, man must have free will," contrary to Jesus in Jn 8:34.

However, Biblically we are accountable for Adam's sin imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 12-14), which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law by which to charge sin against them (Ro 4:15), and which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness imputed to us (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 2 Co 5:21). . .and we had no choice (free will) in either imputation of Adam's sin or imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

Brightfame52 said:

Does man have a freewill ?

I'm not asking does man have a will, sure he does. God created man with a will, and man has a responsible and accountable will that God gave him at creation. However the question remains, does man have a freewill ?

Man though he has a will, his will isn't free from Gods Sovereign Will and Purpose. Mans will is always subservient to Gods Sovereign Purpose !

I'm going to share some scripture which without doubt, indicate that mans will is subservient to Gods Will of Purpose.

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Prov 16:9

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Prov 19:21

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

These are just a few verses, there are many more !

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You mention that man has a will, meaning man could make choices to sin, etc. We know that God does not cause man to sin:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

So it is not God's sovereign will that we commit sin. All of this is pointing to the fact that man has the will to choose. So within the limitations of the plans God has made man can still choose. These choices could result in childbirth (from the sin of fornication) and as such alter the pathway of God's plan.

WHat this shows is that God's plan is not linear, it is not like a unchanging book, but rather flexible through the generations. I believe God's plan allows for the whole spectrum of human choices, yet puts constraints on us. Having a flexible plan prevents things getting totally out of hand.

Thinnk of the billions of galaxies and stars, GOd's power and understanding holds them together. Is is unreasonable to suggest an all powerful God can not have a plan that empowers free will.

Clare73 said:

That's the kind of secular thinking that got us "free will" in the first place; i.e., "to be accountable, man must have free will," contrary to Jesus in Jn 8:34.

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No, God got us free will. Sin would be impossible, in fact, if not for free will, because God does not will sin. And even "secular" folk understand basic justice, right from wrong, which is why we're rightfully morally outraged over some grave injustice done. We know that the perpetrator had a choice, could've refrained, could've done otherwise.

Clare73 said:

That's the kind of secular thinking that got us "free will" in the first place; i.e., "to be accountable, man must have free will," contrary to Jesus in Jn 8:34.

However, Biblically we are accountable for Adam's sin imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 12-14), which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law by which to charge sin against them (Ro 4:15), and which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness imputed to us (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 2 Co 5:21). . .and we had no choice (free will) in either imputation of Adam's sin or imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

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John 8:34 does not mean a person can not escape their sins, for we see "If the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."


In fact, it is our "free will choice" that leads to either slavery, or freedom:



There is an action we take, in our "free will", to push aside the knowledge of God, and that action results in bondage. Like wise if we acknowledge Christ, we will have the Father's love.

Clare73 said:

Note the past tense. . .

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Yes. So? What is your point? I already asked you what your point was and then you didn't explain it. Please stop being so vague.

Clare73 said:

No one can see the kingdom of God (much less enter it) unless he is born again (Jn 3:3).

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Yes. So? What does that have to do with the timing of when someone repents and believes?

Clare73 said:

The unregenerate do not believe in Jesus Christ (Jn 8:31, 44, 47).

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They can put their faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus called unregenerate sinners to repentance (Matthew 9:13) and never said they first had to be born again before they could repent and believe in Him.

Clare73 said:

They are spiritually dead and must be raised to eternal life in order to be able to spiritually see the kingdom of God.

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Wrong. Your understanding of what it means to be dead in sins, which is the Calvinist understanding, is very flawed. Being dead in sins has nothing to do with whether someone can repent and believe or not. Being dead in sins means you are separated from God. That's not being spiritually dead in the way you think of it. Jesus said that sinners are spiritually sick.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Someone who is sick can recognize that they are sick and is capable of admitting that he or she needs a physician and can't heal him or herself. Jesus would not have made this comparison if He did not believe that all sinners are capable of recognizing their lost spiritual status while having the ability to acknowledge it while repenting of their sins and putting their faith in Christ instead of themselves.

Clare73 said:

What doth the Scripture say (Ro 4:3) in Ro 1:20?

That is the answer to your question.

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For reference, my question was this:

Do you think that God expects unregenerate man to glorify Him as God and to give thanks to Him for what He has done and that unregenerate man has no excuse for not doing so?

Clare73 said:

What doth the Scripture say (Ro 4:3) in Ro 1:20?

That is the answer to your question.

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Scripture says that man has no excuse for not glorifying Him as God and being thankful to Him, so I will assume your answer to my question is yes. So, tell me why you believe that unregenerate man is capable of glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him, but somehow is not capable of repenting of his sins and putting his faith in Christ? That makes no sense.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, SJ

The call to repent is a command of God.

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Unregenerate man ( Flesh) does not because it can not submit to God's law ( command).

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Yes, but that does not mean that unregenerate man cannot repent and confess his sins while placing his faith in Christ for his salvation. It just means unregenerate man cannot act righteously and submit to His law consistently without the Holy Spirit.

Even baby Christians (immature Christians) have trouble submitting to God's law because of being carnal (having a mind set on the flesh) instead of submitting to the Holy Spirit. Yet, they are still Christians. It takes time for most Christians to learn how to become more mature in the faith and learn to submit more consistently to the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Based on how you interpret a passage like Romans 8:7-8, it would not be possible for these "babes in Christ" that Paul rebuked to actually be "in Christ", but they were. Romans 8:7-8 is talking about what is necessary to become a mature Christian. You have to submit to the Holy Spirit consistently and walk in the Spirit. But, none of us do that perfectly. New Christians especially struggle with that. If you are being carnal like these "babes in Christ" then you cannot submit to God's law and cannot please God while behaving like that. But, again, they were "in Christ". They had faith in Christ, they just were not mature in the faith. They did not need to be regenerated in order to put their faith in Christ in the first place. Regeneration comes after repentance and faith and is when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us and gives us access to God's power to overcome sin. But, we still have to battle with the flesh at the same time.

BBAS 64 said:

Those that are born of the Spirit (regeneration ( born-again)) are not unregenerate (flesh). Because God has removed their heart of stone and put His Spirit in them and caused them to obey His statues which includes the command to repent and believe.

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You are being very rigid here. You are acting as if when we become born again we then become sinless. That is not the case, as you can see with the "babes in Christ" that Paul wrote about. Despite being carnal and acting similar to those who are unregenerate, they still had faith and were still considered to be "in Christ". So, you are absolutely wrong to try to claim that regeneration is necessary in order to repent and believe. Scripture NEVER teaches that.

BBAS 64 said:

Can you tell me what would be the cause a man to love the darkness he loves and love the light he hates?

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Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Being made aware of what loving darkness instead of light results in (eternal death and condemnation) while also being made aware of what God offers instead (salvation and eternal life) is what can cause someone to change their minds about their sin and about Jesus and choose the light instead of darkness.

Brightfame52 said:

@Spiritual Jew

It must not be too obvious since many in religion advocate mans freewill. Its not true, thats my point

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What are you talking about? You said man's will is subservient to God's will, right? And I said I agree with that and that it's obvious. So, what exactly are you saying is not true?

But, man's will being subservient to God's will does not mean man doesn't have free will. That's a ridiculous conclusion that you're drawing there. God chose to give man free will and make him responsible. Man didn't choose to have free will. Calvinists falsely think that if man has free will then that somehow means God is not sovereign, but that is ludicrous and not true. If man having free will was God's sovereign choice, which it was, then that does not take away from His sovereignty at all.

Brightfame52 said:

Man is not free from being morally responsible to God, yet he is not free from his depraved nature, and cant stop sinning against God and accumulate guilt, unfortunately he is a slave to sin, and yet morally responsible.

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What do you say man is morally responsible to God for exactly?

If you read Romans 1:18-21 you can see that man has no excuse for not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him for what He has done. So, man is at the very least morally responsible for that, right? What else do you think man is morally responsible for?

Brightfame52 said:

Mans will isnt free from our sin nature, we are servants of sin naturally Jn 8:34

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Folks we are all by nature sinners, so we commit sin, hence we are servants or slaves of sins The word servant doulos means slave. Jesus uses the present tense is esti being actually a slave of sin, and this is even applying to very religious people ! We cant just exercise our freewill and stop being a slave to sin, it takes actual liberation.

Jesus told some more people Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus tells these people they will do the lust of their father the devil, they dont have a freewill choice not to do it. " ye will do" is present tense indicative, its certain that is all they will be doing, they are slaves to sin.

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Of course people can't keep themselves from sinning. We all agree on that. Paul made it clear that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). But, that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about whether sinners are able to repent and believe or not.

Jesus said this...

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Someone who is physically sick can recognize that they are sick and is capable of admitting that he or she needs a physician and can't heal him or herself. Similarly, sinners who are spiritually sick are capable of recognizing their status of being lost sinners while having the ability to acknowledge it while repenting of their sins and putting their faith in Christ instead of themselves.

In Calvinism, the righteous who have been regenerated are called to repentance and can't repent until they have first been made righteous by being regenerated.

In reality, unregenerated sinners are called to repentance with the expectation that they are all capable of answering the call. God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31) and would not do so unless all people everywhere could repent. A spiritually sick person is not "totally depraved" and incapable of recognizing their condition and responding with repentance and faith as Calvinism falsely teaches. Jesus called such people to repent and never said they had to be regenerated first.

Brightfame52 said:

False, Paul never said nothing about him having freewill. In fact he said even as a believer he was a slave to sin, the flesh Rom 7


23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

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It is wonderful to have someone else to blame for our sins: The devil made me do it, it is all Adam and Eve’s fault, I am only human and your answer: “it is not me myself, but some other being called flesh.”



1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.



John talks about them “not sinning” then “but if” meaning they can sin, then the solution to sin being “Christ”.



John did not say: “but when”, but showed it to be contingent on them.



You are using Ro. 7:14-24 to support your conclusion, but you are not taking into consideration the context of this being written to roman Christians and the writing style of the time being used in Rome to describe Roman victories and Paul’s victory over sin being a huge victory.



A lot is made of the fact Paul switched to the present tense in these verses, but was there a reason that the Roman reader to pick up on this switch and better understand what Paul was saying? We are reading other peoples mail to Romans in Rome during the first century, so what would be the best way to communicate a huge victory over sin to them?



When Mark describes in his Gospel is Christ’s great battle with a climatic victory being Christ rising, he wrote it in the “historic present tense”. Supporting the idea Mark was in Rome at the time.

What Paul is describing in Romans 7: 14-24 is a great battle and final climatic victory over sin in the “historic present tense”.

Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever, but what “purpose” does it have in the believer life?

When Deity dwelled unquenched in a human (Christ) it did not sin, so does deity dwell within Christians, so the problem is really the quenching of the Spirit?



On every major street corner in Rome were monuments to some great Roman victory, some parts of these monuments are in museums today and below each is given an exciting climatic description of the battle in the “historic present tense”. This was the same description carried by messengers sent out by the general over the Roman Empire, after a great victory.



Similar to this Roman section on (the war and victory over sin) is Mark’s whole Gospel of Christ’s war against satan’s follows of this world”.



The Gospel of Mark was mimicking the messages that were sent out by the Roman generals after winning a great battle. These messages went with messengers to dramatically present the battle with the victory at the end, to the cheers of the crowd. They were always in the present tense and we have some copies that were written in stone under the battle monuments that were spread throughout Rome. The Gospel of Mark is written in the style of these Victory Messages sent by the Roman General to the Roman Empire and Mark’s is very much a victory message. Do you think, Paul in keep with the Roman culture of the day, would have written His victorious battle over sin in the present tense to the Romans in Rome?



It is called the “historic present tense”, by scholars and would fit what Paul was saying to the Romans.



This topic and the use of Romans 7: 14-24 come up a lot and a lot has been written on it.



The context helps and you need to address these questions:



1. When did Paul learn about “coveting”?

2. When did this problem start for Paul?

3. Does Paul continue in the misery and what would relief this misery?

4. Is “just being forgiven” a good solution to the problem?

5. When did Paul obtain the solution?