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does madness exist?

lutherangerman

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In our day we have various medical definitions for illnesses that in the old day were all universally considered "madness".

Do you think that real madness exists, ie people who have a mind that has gone bonkers completely?

What do you think of people like Hitler .. are they evil men or mad men, or both?

How would you define sanity as opposed to madness?
 

Bushido216

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This is one of those times when I'm tempted to say something like "define your terms".

Anyway,

Mental pathology exists. I understand that the following is somewhat circular, but I lack any immediate way to more clearly express my point.

Being insane is having a pathology.
Being sane is not having a pathology.;

Psychosis, mood disorders, etc, are real, and do effect behaviour.
 
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lutherangerman

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Well, the word for madness in german is "Verrücktheit", literally "moved away". IE, the one who is mad, is like someone whose mind has been moved from a healthy state into an unhealthy state. This seems to have to do with understanding. When I am sane, I would say I am capable of understanding danger and how to react to it. I understand that the pain of my neighbor demands that I console him. Understanding here means that I do what I need to do. But this understanding is absent or at least damaged in the insane, usually not completely and not in all things, but so that it shows if examined. And there seems to be a difference between temporal craziness which really almost all of us fall into sometimes (like when you're in love with a girl, that can really make you do and think crazy stuff), and real madness.

But I can only approach this problem so far ... Chesterton wrote that a mad person still has intact reasoning, but he may have lost common sense, sentiment, fear of evil, individual hesitations, feelings and such, beliefs, values. I think a sociopath knows that something's wrong with him in his reason, but he doesn't know it in another sense, he's not understanding because he, for example, may have lost his ideals or belief in values.

I mean, try to examine "values" with pure reason. Pure reason sees a few connections but it never reaches a conclusion by itself. There need to be premises, and for these premises to be accepted there must be belief in these values, a love for them. If you are mad, I would say there's something wrong in your connection of heart and mind. In our heart we love and hate, and our head fleshes things out and infuses our heart stuff with reason which then makes anything run more smoothly and eliminates danger etc. But if our heart and mind become disconnected, reason runs rampant in the head without the heart sending up its beefy material. This is like when you are married and you have stopped feeling something for your wife. If that feeling never comes up again you are in for a tough ride because this may affect the honesty with which you can love your partner. People with depression sometimes don't complain about bad feelings but about feeling void of feelings.

Somehow madness seems to be defined by a removedness from life, that we don't understand it anymore, that we are going in circles with our reasoning. It's bad and obviously a dangerous situation, and I'm glad we christians have spiritual means to tackle it. Personally, I have schizophrenia and I know what I am speaking about. But God can reach me still and in Him I have a factor of utmost sanity in my life.
 
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Bushido216

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The problem is 1. that you're using madness and insanity interchangably but still asking for some sort of distinction between the two

2. There are clinical classifications of mental pathology that work pretty well if you're looking for, with apologies for the phrasing, definitions of different forms of madness.

In other words, you're appealing to philosophy to explain something that frankly it has no business in. If you wanted to talk about the meaning of insanity as it relates to ethics or politics or something, that'd be a worthy discussion and I'd be a part of that, but trying to define something in psychology using philosophy is sort of like using a hammer to drive in a screw (incase you don't get the analogy, it's like using one tool to do another tool's job).
 
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lutherangerman

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Hi Bushido,

well I mentioned in my OP, I confess rather vaguely, how people in the old day thought about madness, and whether there are kinds of madness that cannot be defined as a medical condition. Tied in to that is my question about Hitler, was he a madman or an evil man, or both. I'm not sure medicine can solve this question completely as it goes into the terrain of morality and ethics, and therefor requires some philosophy, and for us faithful, some theology.

I'm concerned by this question almost daily as I have schizophrenia that sometimes brings me into evil that I need to get clean of again in repentance. Sometimes I am inclined to blame my schizophrenia related sins on the illness, but then the evils that I cause with these sins (mostly just disgusting thought stuff but still abhorrent to me) shock me and I want to consider them as sins in the christian sense, ie stuff I need to approach Jesus for to get forgiveness for and that I need to become more aware of and think about in order to see and avoid them in the future. The question is, how responsible is an insane man for his actions, and what about partially insane men like me? To that end I tried to answer what madness is for me.. I'm sorry if I did poorly, but that was as accurate as I could get with my limited understanding of the concerned sciences and perhaps it's worth something as an insider's perspective.
 
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quatona

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Do you think that real madness exists, ie people who have a mind that has gone bonkers completely?
For to judge that we would first have to have standards
a. what we consider a properly working mind
b. where the line is between minor/major deviations and "complete" disfunctioning.

To me personally it seems that everyone have their own perceptions/realities, and that "madness" or "insanity" are terms of the majority to voice their inconvenience/fear/terror of people who perceive differently. In my opinion, what´s considered "madness" or "insanity" depends largely on societal preassumptions, norms and agreements.

What do you think of people like Hitler .. are they evil men or mad men, or both?
Neither, probably. Personally, I don´t think that these categories are useful when ascribed to persons.

How would you define sanity as opposed to madness?
I guess I prefer to abstain from defining these words. I´d leave it to those who suffer from perceiving differently than their environment to the point that they seek help.
 
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quatona

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The question is, how responsible is an insane man for his actions,
Depending on what exactly you mean by "responsible" I would not even dare to determine how responsible "sane" men are for their actions.
and what about partially insane men like me?
I´m not in your shoes, and I don´t think I can judge this. We all have our conditions, limitations that are great obstacles to intentional change.
Personally, I don´t find much use in hypotheticals such as "Could I have done differently?"
I did what I did, and the results are either desirable or undesirable (and in most cases both - depending on the perspective, how narrow or wide the focus of the view is and at what point in time I look at the results).
One of the most questionable distinctions, in my opinion, is between "I can´t..." and "I don´t want to...". When it comes to myself and even more so, when it comes to others.

Probably all this is not very helpful for you, since I am neither a theist nor do I put much value in the concept of "guilt", to begin with.
 
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IreneAdler

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This is one of those times when I'm tempted to say something like "define your terms".

Anyway,

Mental pathology exists. I understand that the following is somewhat circular, but I lack any immediate way to more clearly express my point.

Being insane is having a pathology.
Being sane is not having a pathology.;

Psychosis, mood disorders, etc, are real, and do effect behaviour.
this

and btw, I think LOTS of people fit into the "have pathology" category who do not know/admit it. (not that I think that wasn't always the case or anything)

as for responsibility, unless there's a total break with reality - YES. (said as someone with a disorder so I'm not being uneducated in my response)
 
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jayem

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Voluminous material has been written about Hitler's psychological state. I'm no expert, but I'd say he had a lot of features of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. These people have a sense of grandiosity and of being uniquely chosen for some special mission in life. They need admiration and seek to be the center of attention. They are intolerant of criticism. And they lack empathy for others. They often abuse drugs--especially stimulants. (Hitler was addicted to amphetamine shots.)

The causes of NPD (or any of the the personality disorders) are unknown. These are life long conditions. There is no treatment AFAIK. I think their brains are just wired differently than most of us. They're the folks you just know are "odd." Unless they lose touch with reality, I wouldn't call it madness. But it's a problem when their symptoms interfere with everyday functioning or harm other people.
 
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lutherangerman

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Hmm. As a christian I would say that the model for sanity is Jesus Christ. We can believe that He was completely healthy in His humanity - because ascribing pathology to him would be very unorthodox in doctrine.

One particular tendency for humans is to have a comfort zone that we do not like to see violated. But Jesus said He had no place to lay His head. Some critisized Jesus for letting a woman perfume His head, I guess some could call that narcisstic but Jesus washed their heads and said, you need me, I love you, let's celebrate before the bad stuff happens. God can be so direct in those things, He does not seem to have inhibitions there.

I think sanity has to do with a love for life that respects and even cherishes the love for life of other people, as much as your own. A kind of treasuring, valuing. I guess people like Hitler don't see a value in a human life. And they do not fear what could happen to them if they violated the value of other people. This is the moral sensibility that is part of sanity.

We must strive to be a normal person in this regard. Our hearts know what that means, but our heads can be so confused and hindered by themselves.
 
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Received

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There's an enormous debate that's been going in mental health (presumably since multiculturalism became a fad) circling the issue presented by the OP. The psychiatric view, mostly based in a biological-individual model, fails to consider a systemic approach that's gaining ground in psychology and psychotherapy. Some mental illnesses might actually be perfectly normal given harsh environmental stressors. Consider how a sexually abused child naturally becomes depressed during adolescence. This depression is a natural response to a highly stressful environment, rather than a disorder that should be considered in a vacuum.

Another problem is determining a mental disorder from a culturally conditioned behavior. Sometimes to figure out if a mental disorder is present one must know whether the perceived abnormal behavior (e.g., an adolescent who engages in cult behavior, has a huge number of tattoos, or believes that she conjures up the dead) developed organically (with or without negative stress from one's environment) or is simply a result of learned behavior as a result of one's culture. Consider that an American Indian who hears voices would be considered "normal" because this is a part of his culture, whereas it would be "abnormal" for a middle-class American Caucasian to experience the same if he just happened to hear them without any cultural association. The problem is further exacerbated when we consider that diagnostic manuals like the DSM hold their own values regarding diagnosis, which is part of the reason why a huge chunk of mental health practitioners would like to be able to use another (more systemic, less biological-based) model for diagnosis purposes.

Also consider the fact that of the hundreds of mental disorders list in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR), only schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depression, and some anxiety disorders are present worldwide. This leads to the conclusion that at least some disorders can be attributed to faulty cultural values which can lead (with a negative environment, and perception of environment is culturally conditioned too) the individual to mental problems, thus making most mental disorders culture-specific.

But mental disorders do most certainly exist. It's just that it can be tricky determining (as stated above) whether the disorder isn't actually a culturally learned behavior.
 
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IreneAdler

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Honestly I don't see madness as it's coined today as a negative thing. God created me this way. This is who I am. Yes, I have to deal with it, but it's no different than diabetes or hypertension or anything else in an imperfect body.
 
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Bushido216

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Relevant parts below, only

Some mental illnesses might actually be perfectly normal given harsh environmental stressors. Consider how a sexually abused child naturally becomes depressed during adolescence. This depression is a natural response to a highly stressful environment, rather than a disorder that should be considered in a vacuum.

I think you're confusing depression as "someone who's really sad" and depression as "a persistent mood state that interferes with one's normal functioning". In other words, I think you're confusing the mood and the disorder.

I don't really think there are any mental health professionals who don't view depression (though in your example dysthymia or disassociative disorders seem more likely) as a natural response to a serious childhood trauma. However, the difference isn't whether or not the mood arises or even persists, it's when it stops being a normal mood response to trauma and starts being an impediment to adaptive functioning. A major depressive episode involves insomnia, changes in appetite, fatigue, motor coordination issues and can lead to thoughts of suicide. That's bad pretty much no matter why it's happened, and shouldn't be left to its own devices.

I think what you're talking about is the difference between psycho pharmacologists and psychotherapists in their differential approaches to treatment. I agree that there has been a tendency among the psychiatric wards of the world to view depression (and other mental disorders) as brain chemical imbalances without the context of one's experiences, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that anti-depressants are an effective crisis management tool and that real world experiences result in brain chemical changes (though I do also add that in experiential cases psychotherapy is a must. The issue seems more to be about deciding which is which).

On the flip side, there are also people who are just born without the correct chemical make-up. No amount of therapy will help someone who is simply not producing the correct chemicals, just as no amount of drugs will produce a long-term solution to an abuse victim.

Another problem is determining a mental disorder from a culturally conditioned behavior. Sometimes to figure out if a mental disorder is present one must know whether the perceived abnormal behavior (e.g., an adolescent who engages in cult behavior, has a huge number of tattoos, or believes that she conjures up the dead) developed organically (with or without negative stress from one's environment) or is simply a result of learned behavior as a result of one's culture.

This honestly isn't really new. Doctors and other mental health professionals in different countries use differential diagnostics per their own particular culture. There are some behaviors which are always maladaptive (insomnia), and some which are based culturally. Any good diagnostician will be able to determine the difference between potential cultural maladaptiveness and physical maladaptiveness and diagnose (or not) based on that.

Consider that an American Indian who hears voices would be considered "normal" because this is a part of his culture, whereas it would be "abnormal" for a middle-class American Caucasian to experience the same if he just happened to hear them without any cultural association. The problem is further exacerbated when we consider that diagnostic manuals like the DSM hold their own values regarding diagnosis, which is part of the reason why a huge chunk of mental health practitioners would like to be able to use another (more systemic, less biological-based) model for diagnosis purposes.

Also consider the fact that of the hundreds of mental disorders list in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR), only schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depression, and some anxiety disorders are present worldwide. This leads to the conclusion that at least some disorders can be attributed to faulty cultural values which can lead (with a negative environment, and perception of environment is culturally conditioned too) the individual to mental problems, thus making most mental disorders culture-specific.

This is probably due to a few things, though without citation I'm a little leery of this claim.

1. The disorders you mentioned are mood, anxiety and psychotic (separation from reality) disorders. Those are disorders which produce maladaption in a global context. I can't think of a culture where formal thought disorder or negative affect are normal.

2. The DSM isn't used as the diagnostic tool world wide. It's primarily used in the United States, so it stands to reason that its classifications would be mostly found in the United States. Other countries (even Canada, I believe) use different diagnostic criteria and, even in circumstances where the criteria are the same, use different names for the same disorders. You'd need to do some pretty extensive cross-referencing to develop the sort of numbers you're looking for. You're also dealing with the problem of under-reporting. There are plenty of places in the world that simply don't acknowledge certain mental disorders for whatever reason. ADHD for instance is a recent disorder that's ballooned largely due to more effective diagnostic and reporting tools. Prior to the last few decades, ADHD chlidren weren't suffering from a developmental disorder but were "bad apples" and the like.

3. I imagine that personality disorders, which you failed to mention, probably fall into the above category of under-reported. You also failed to mention disassociative disorders. Those are pretty maladaptive no matter where you are.
 
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Bushido216 said:
I don't really think there are any mental health professionals who don't view depression (though in your example dysthymia or disassociative disorders seem more likely) as a natural response to a serious childhood trauma. However, the difference isn't whether or not the mood arises or even persists, it's when it stops being a normal mood response to trauma and starts being an impediment to adaptive functioning. A major depressive episode involves insomnia, changes in appetite, fatigue, motor coordination issues and can lead to thoughts of suicide. That's bad pretty much no matter why it's happened, and shouldn't be left to its own devices.

When I say that some mental disorders might be perfectly normal given harsh environmental stressors, I'm not saying that the individual wouldn't be maladaptive to his environment (therefore undeserving of the application of a mental disorder), but rather that his response to the stressors is appropriate given his biological, emotional, psychological, etc. constitution -- his comprehensive self. If this follows, this means that what determines a mental disorder depends entirely on the individual's environment with which he must adapt to, which means that each and every mental disorder in any manual you bring to the table is a mental disorder relative to the norming group's sociocultural context from which the normative data was taken in compiling a list of symptoms for each disorder. Put differently, mental disorders may be maladaptive by definition no matter which culture you're in, but what precipitates the disorder is a synthesis of individual and sociocultural factors.

As for the rest: I'm not claiming that biological factors aren't hugely (if not exclusively) responsible for some mental disorders. Nor am I claiming that the DSM-IV-TR is the ubiquitous standard regarding mental disorders, but rather that even within the American context there is plenty of social and cultural diversity to put into question the legitimacy of using a single definitive manual for mental disorders (one that suffers from convenience sampling at that). This is reflected in survey literature that points to a majority of mental health practitioners who prefer an alternative to the DSM for diagnosis to fit their systemic and/or non-reductionistic diagnostic philosophies. Regarding the claim under point 3 at the bottom, we're not considering whether a dissociative disorder is maladaptive or not, but whether or not it's reported worldwide. For this point, my source is admittedly a bit dated:

Kleinman, A. (1996). How is culture important for DSM-IV? In J.E. Mezzich, A. Kleinman, H. Fabrega, & D. L. Parron (Eds.), Culture and psychiatric diagnosis: A DSM-IV perspective (pp. 15-25). Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Press.

Which was cited in the text:

Eriksen, K., & Kress, V. E. (2005). Beyond the DSM story: Ethical quandaries, challenges, and best practices. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage.
 
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Bushido216

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When I say that some mental disorders might be perfectly normal given harsh environmental stressors, I'm not saying that the individual wouldn't be maladaptive to his environment (therefore undeserving of the application of a mental disorder), but rather that his response to the stressors is appropriate given his biological, emotional, psychological, etc. constitution -- his comprehensive self.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to demonstrate here. It honestly sounds like you're stating a profound grasp of the obvious. "Person A, given conditions B, will react in way C, given that person A is a human, and therefore likely to share basic human characteristics that other humans have." By appropriate I assume you're meaning "that which you'd expect of a human".

Though I should note that "maladaptive to one's environment" doesn't really apply to a mood disorder. That would be something like a personality disorder. Mood disorders aren't considered maladaptive to the context of one's environment but more to the context of one's happiness and physical health. I suppose if you developed a society where people walking around who were suicidal was preferable it wouldn't be an issue, but that doesn't seem like a useful distinction.

If this follows, this means that what determines a mental disorder depends entirely on the individual's environment with which he must adapt to, which means that each and every mental disorder in any manual you bring to the table is a mental disorder relative to the norming group's sociocultural context from which the normative data was taken in compiling a list of symptoms for each disorder. Put differently, mental disorders may be maladaptive by definition no matter which culture you're in, but what precipitates the disorder is a synthesis of individual and sociocultural factors.

I take what you mean by the last sentence is analogous to "delusional disorder may be maladaptive anywhere, but the symptoms to bring it along may be different, such as talking to the earth spirits in a Native American culture vs. Manhattan." So, I'm willing to more or less bite, since no one's yet put any televangelists in a mental ward yet. But that's the sort of thing that normally only applies to social things. Spanking and whipping your child is considered disordered here but is normal in other places (variance within the U.S. even).

Anyway, I think I see where you're going, and I'll try and address it by example.

ADHD is a developmental disorder. Basically, one's executive functioning doesn't develop as it should. Now, 50 years ago this simply wasn't a classified disorder... simply no one thought to see if some of those bratty kids were bratty for a reason. However, that doesn't change the fact that the person was disordered. In other words, their behaviour was maladaptive, it led to a decrease in their ability to function in the world, led to personal unhappiness and with a set treatment course could be ameliorated.

Basically, if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it... it's still fallen.

I also should note that disorders aren't just disorders in the context of their current state. A diagnosis also involves the development of the symptom course and the treatment used to ameliorate the disorder. By way of example, if someone comes in with schizophrenic symptoms but arrived at those symptoms by way of brain trauma, it isn't schizophrenia, even if the symptoms are exactly the same.

A rose by any other name. Some society may decide that some behaviour or other isn't a disorder, but that doesn't mean it's not extant in the person, only that they're choosing not to recognize it.

As for the rest: I'm not claiming that biological factors aren't hugely (if not exclusively) responsible for some mental disorders. Nor am I claiming that the DSM-IV-TR is the ubiquitous standard regarding mental disorders, but rather that even within the American context there is plenty of social and cultural diversity to put into question the legitimacy of using a single definitive manual for mental disorders (one that suffers from convenience sampling at that). This is reflected in survey literature that points to a majority of mental health practitioners who prefer an alternative to the DSM for diagnosis to fit their systemic and/or non-reductionistic diagnostic philosophies.

"The DSM needs either be somewhat general or else fail as a catch-all" isn't the same as "psychology is relative". While I freely grant that some disorders are in the context of one's environment (gender disorders come to mind) some frankly aren't (developmental disorders). I don't care where you are, ADHD is disordered. If you decide to turn the validity of disorders into "whether or not people care to recognize them" it's interesting, but otherwise useless.

Of course, I could be completely misunderstanding you, which is possible.

Regarding the claim under point 3 at the bottom, we're not considering whether a dissociative disorder is maladaptive or not, but whether or not it's reported worldwide. For this point, my source is admittedly a bit dated:

Kleinman, A. (1996). How is culture important for DSM-IV? In J.E. Mezzich, A. Kleinman, H. Fabrega, & D. L. Parron (Eds.), Culture and psychiatric diagnosis: A DSM-IV perspective (pp. 15-25). Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Press.

Which was cited in the text:

Eriksen, K., & Kress, V. E. (2005). Beyond the DSM story: Ethical quandaries, challenges, and best practices. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage.

Judging by the citation I'm guessing that's from a book? Both of them? If it was a journal article I could get at least the abstract courtesy of my school's database, but I'm not going to get a book out, so I'll trust that you're not making this up. :)
 
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Bushido, I get the feeling we're arguing parallel to one another. If what I'm saying below is something you feel you've already grasped and addressed, forgive me. The first paragraph, at least, is my attempt to contextualize my standing in our conversation in relation to the OP's question regarding madness.

Bushido216 said:
I'm not really sure what you're trying to demonstrate here. It honestly sounds like you're stating a profound grasp of the obvious.

To you it would probably be somewhat obvious, but not with regard to those outside the field of psychology or mental health. The OP was asking if madness existed. My response was that "madness" (which is a generalized term for mental disorder) is a systemic problem (with some exceptions, as with ADHD which you've presented), and that therefore the individual has to be understood in relation to the environment, including his mental illness. This means that "madness" isn't typically something inherent to the individual (unless we're talking about purely biologically-related illnesses); it could even be correct to say that one's environment that triggers the mental illness is equally (or moreso) "mad" as the individual. In such a case, while the individual might develop a disorder that causes maladaption problems with relation to different contexts in which he finds himself (vocational, educational, etc.), the disorder itself is a normal response to an environmental stressor per the individual's particular constitution (which could obviously include emotional or psychological "weaknesses" that incline him towards a particular disorder). But obviously in the more inherently biological mental disorders, even a "normal" environment could trigger a disorder.

Now, this isn't quite the intuitive sort of stuff for someone who hasn't seriously dabbled in mental health, and obviously nothing profound to someone like yourself who is clearly gone beyond grazing its surface. Assuming that I'm being clear enough in what I'm talking about, which I get the feeling that I'm not.

A rose by any other name. Some society may decide that some behaviour or other isn't a disorder, but that doesn't mean it's not extant in the person, only that they're choosing not to recognize it.

Now this is something that we can really discuss. What determines abnormality? (See below to get a bit of my answer.)

"The DSM needs either be somewhat general or else fail as a catch-all" isn't the same as "psychology is relative". While I freely grant that some disorders are in the context of one's environment (gender disorders come to mind) some frankly aren't (developmental disorders). I don't care where you are, ADHD is disordered. If you decide to turn the validity of disorders into "whether or not people care to recognize them" it's interesting, but otherwise useless.

We're juxtaposing two different problems. There's a different between considering the systemic nature of some diseases, and (as with ADHD) claiming that some disorders are present regardless of the environment (society and culture) in which the individual is embedded. I don't know about you, but I would say that most disorders are the result of individual-environmental interactions, which is to say that they're systemic, which is also to say that they're not purely biological causes. Few disorders are purely inherent in the individual, such as ADHD.

Then we also have in this paragraph the question of whether or not a mental disorder is a mental disorder regardless of one's sociocultural setting. Now, the individual might exhibit ADHD symptoms in a small society (ideally primitive) that doesn't place near as much emphasis on concentration and lack of impulsivity. Would this individual then have a mental disorder? The answer to this question involves asking whether or not this individual has problems adapting to his environment, as you've pointed out a few times before. But what determines the degree of how problematic an individual's behaviors are determines whether or not these behaviors are considered symptomatic of a disorder by the society in which the individual is placed. It's very easy to counter this by saying that "well, yeah, but the DSM is a scientifically validated piece of equipment." But here we have to realize that it's been normed on a group of individuals with specific values and in specific parts of the world. These values are what determine abnormality, and this is what I mean when I say that the DSM has its own values inherent in it.
 
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lutherangerman

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Well, my real interest with this OP is, in what way can we consider madness an evil oft he moral kind, and in what way can we simply consider it an affliction. Normally we humans like to say, an affliction and its symptoms do not mean that we're evil. Diseases come and go and it's not in our power to entirely control them/drive them out. We're best adviced to see diseases as a bad part of life that challenges our love.

But the thing with real madness is, it can produce rather great evil. I have read of people who went amok because they were mad. As a christian we have our commandments in that regard, we are taught about sin and that we must avoid it by all means. And other people like atheists also have their values, a recognition of wisdom and reason, a sense of love.

What exactly can we do with those people who in their madness have lost their values, their fear of God, etc. How can we turn mad people, if not into sane people but at least into moral people, so that evil that can come from madness, can be largely eliminated?

I think the answer is, to be a moral man is a rewarding thing. Morality is not a cage but an adventure of the free. God is an inspiring influence that inspires morality of the heart that leads us to new horizons.

Morality certainly has aspects of fear, because we simply have evil inclinations sometimes so that we need to constrain ourselves. But this is not how it should be, because we shall be perfected in love which then drives out fear and brings us to a higher level.
 
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