Does Lucifer Have Free Will?

[SinoBen]

Now are you going to address the many points I presented?

You have not stated what you would accept as evidence, so I could address your "many points", really only one, and you could simply dismiss them at whim. That would be wasted time and effort.

 

[cvanwey]

You have not stated what you would accept as evidence, so I could address your "many points", really only one, and you could simply dismiss them at whim. That would be wasted time and effort.

If you read the OP again, in it's entirety, you may understand....

 

[SinoBen]

If you read the OP again, in it's entirety, you may understand....

Understood. But be warned about the sin against the Holy Spirit. Adios.

 

[cvanwey]

Understood. But be warned about the sin against the Holy Spirit. Adios.

You mean the one you are committing, on a daily basis, by worshiping a false prophet? Ta Ta

 

[dcalling]

If so, demonstrate why Jesus was not actually Lucifer in disguise. Along with 'original sin', demonstrate that the Devil did not simply orchestrate yet another point of deception, by getting millions/billions to break the very top commandments, (by worshiping a false god).

It would appear the Devil has the ability to change form. It would appear the Devil has the ability to tempt humans. It would also appear the Devil has special powers, as the Devil appears able to tempt more than one individual at a time - (omnipresence).

If one states that God places limits on the Devil's capabilities, this would appear to negate the 'free will' argument.

So, does the Devil have the ability to impersonate God? If so, then please explain above.

If no, then doesn't this contradict the concept of free will? Which might then beg further questions... Such as, if God places limits to Satan, then why does God allow what God does allow Satan to perform, which causes many to reside in hell?

The point of this thread is to essentially turn the tables a bit... Shake things up, if you will.... Meaning, the skeptic is shifting the burden of proof the other way. The skeptic makes the assertion, and it is now up to the theist to 'disprove' the assertion.

This should be fun

At some point I started to take on the Calvinist view (maybe I mis-inteperted him but anyways).
I don't think there is true free will. We might only have our conscious but no free will, i.e. given the same condition and input, we will make the same decision.

Alone that I don't think the Bible mentions any have free will either, so it is likely none has free-will except God (my option).

 

[Moral Orel]

Hi Nicholas, thanks for the question.

You have pre-empted my answer to the OP through your question. I'll reframe it to the real question: In the miracles and in all of Christ' work, who gets the glory? Please re-read the Matthew 12:22-32 passage again with that question in mind. You will see that the glory goes to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Father Matthew 10:20

In fact try reading from the beginning of Matthew and read with that single question in mind (who gets the glory) you will see that Jesus' answer to the Pharisees is powerful. Jesus glorifies the Father not himself.

Matthew 5:14
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Check out also the Lord's prayer Matthew 6:9-13

But Jesus also elevates Himself by instructing people to pray in His name, and tells people that He is God, and that the only way to the Father is through Him. So Jesus gets glory from His work too, I'd say.

None of this really addresses my point though. You're trying to show that what Jesus did in this story was good using a totally different argument than Jesus used, which is fine. But I'd still like to know, if Satan wanted to put on an act with one of his fallen buddies and stage a possession/exorcism using some hapless victim as a "vessel", that's completely within the realm of possibilities based on how little we can ever know about what Satan is capable of, yes?

 

[cvanwey]

I would like to add to post #86, w/o infringing upon it directly...

If humans are acknowledged as fallible in their senses, and Satan has the ability to perform deception, then how are you, the human, able to distinguish 'the real deal' from a fake?.?.?.?

Saying He fulfilled prophecy gets us no closer... Satan would know what the OT says. Satan could simply 'fulfill' them to taste, as later translated by fallible humans.

Any form or derivative of 'Faith' would not appear to be a sound mechanism... Faith can be used for anything demonstrated as true or false, just the same.

Thoughts?

 

[danny ski]

When did this fascination with evil began among the Christians? Is this the New Testament thing or is it a later development? Lucifer must be a later invention as the name is but a mistranslation and certainly doesn't refer to any "fallen" angel, nor is the Satan an evil being.

 

[SinoBen]

But Jesus also elevates Himself by instructing people to pray in His name, and tells people that He is God, and that the only way to the Father is through Him. So Jesus gets glory from His work too, I'd say.

None of this really addresses my point though. You're trying to show that what Jesus did in this story was good using a totally different argument than Jesus used, which is fine. But I'd still like to know, if Satan wanted to put on an act with one of his fallen buddies and stage a possession/exorcism using some hapless victim as a "vessel", that's completely within the realm of possibilities based on how little we can ever know about what Satan is capable of, yes?

John 8:48-54
The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’"

 

[dcalling]

I would like to add to post #86, w/o infringing upon it directly...

If humans are acknowledged as fallible in their senses, and Satan has the ability to perform deception, then how are you, the human, able to distinguish 'the real deal' from a fake?.?.?.?

Saying He fulfilled prophecy gets us no closer... Satan would know what the OT says. Satan could simply 'fulfill' them to taste, as later translated by fallible humans.

Any form or derivative of 'Faith' would not appear to be a sound mechanism... Faith can be used for anything demonstrated as true or false, just the same.

Thoughts?

It is rather simple, if Satan keeps preaching the central message of Christianity, which is that only God saves, and we can't save ourselves except through God alone, than he is doing a favor to God. However at some point Satan will reverse and try to persuade you that you can save yourself by your good works, at that point you know it is not God.

 

[cvanwey]

It is rather simple, if Satan keeps preaching the central message of Christianity, which is that only God saves, and we can't save ourselves except through God alone, than he is doing a favor to God. However at some point Satan will reverse and try to persuade you that you can save yourself by your good works, at that point you know it is not God.

I would assume Satan is 'smarter' than me. I would assume Satan is 'craftier' than me. I would assume Satan is more 'deceitful' than me.

And even I know that there exists a dichotomy among Christians of all sects... Being faith vs works...

Satan would know which ones adopt the faith>works model. Satan would adjust accordingly. Because remember, Satan would be the most deceitful one of them all. I would imagine he could tailor his 'craftiness' accordingly. This is how one deceives

 

[Moral Orel]

John 8:48-54
The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’"

You're still not answering my question. I've asked twice now. Why are you not answering? I asked a question about what Satan is capable of. This has nothing to do with that.

I'll be happy to carry on this side conversation that you've proposed, but not if you're just going to ignore questions I ask.

 

[SinoBen]

Jesus' argument here seems to be a bad one that I've always wondered about. He assumes that if Satan drives out a demon, that it's a real fight between the two entities. The man could have been possessed by a "shill" if you will. Imagine a guy who has his buddy pretend to mug a woman just so that the original guy can come to the rescue, scare off the "mugger" and then hope for a date from the woman now that he is her "hero". Why couldn't it be something akin to this? Can a demon possess a person just so that Satan can come along and "cast him out" to play the hero? If not, why not?

In 2 Corinthians 11:14 Paul said that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. So of course satan can possibly do as you say.

 

[Moral Orel]

In 2 Corinthians 11:14 Paul said that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. So of course satan can possibly do as you say.

Thanks. See, the point I was getting at is that we can't rule anything out when it comes to what Satan might be capable of. We know next to nothing about the supernatural realm and what effects any supernatural entities can have on the natural world, so we can't ever really conclude something of the sort, "Well, Satan couldn't do that...". Sure, he isn't omnipotent like God, but that doesn't really tell us anything about what he can or can't do, just that he can't do everything. You can point to verses in the Bible that describe things he's done or can do and say, "Well, we know he can do this" but there's no reason to assume that's a complete list of his abilities, so nothing can be ruled out. Anything miraculous that Jesus or God performed in the Bible might well be within Satan's capabilities as well, at the very least he can mimic it well enough no human could tell the difference.

Think about Moses and his staff/serpent in front of Pharaoh's sorcerers. The sorcerers can do the same thing Moses can. Sure, his was stronger and gobbled 'em up, but if God isn't there to show his superiority, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference based on miraculous abilities alone.

John 8:48-54
The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’"

So then Jesus is glorified and not just the Father. See, I thought you were saying that we know Jesus' works were good because it all points exclusively to God and no one else, but his works place Jesus in a position of unprecedented reverence. If Judaism is true and Jesus isn't the Messiah, then wouldn't Jesus be a bit like the golden calf?

 

[SinoBen]

Thanks. See, the point I was getting at is that we can't rule anything out when it comes to what Satan might be capable of. We know next to nothing about the supernatural realm <snip>

This is where we differ... but I understand why we differ. You lean on the natural, I lean on the Spirit. It's not surprising why you do not discern spiritual things. A searing of conscience has overtaken you perhaps.

If I told you that satan, what ever ability, intelligence and experience he may have, failed to recognise the plan and purpose of God, you would not accept it. Right? Instead, you like the other fellow, the OP, chose to attribute the very plan and purpose of God to satan. This is the same as the Pharisee.

Judaism is true because Jesus is the Lamb of God the Messiah, anyone calling him satan, have instead chosen the Golden Calf. The Logos came down from the mountain, but disregarding Him, choose idolatry to satan. Isn't that the way it is?

 

[dcalling]

I would assume Satan is 'smarter' than me. I would assume Satan is 'craftier' than me. I would assume Satan is more 'deceitful' than me.

And even I know that there exists a dichotomy among Christians of all sects... Being faith vs works...

Satan would know which ones adopt the faith>works model. Satan would adjust accordingly. Because remember, Satan would be the most deceitful one of them all. I would imagine he could tailor his 'craftiness' accordingly. This is how one deceives

He might be smarter and have more power, by once he starts to persuade you that you can save yourself by your good works, you know it is not of God, it is like no matter how smart someone is, he can't change simple math.

 

[Moral Orel]

This is where we differ... but I understand why we differ. You lean on the natural, I lean on the Spirit. It's not surprising why you do not discern spiritual things. A searing of conscience has overtaken you perhaps.

Sigh... Whenever someone "snips" me, I can tell they aren't interested in a real conversation, but okay. Basically, you're saying that you discern with "spirit", which amounts to nothing more than saying, "I just know".

If I told you that satan, what ever ability, intelligence and experience he may have, failed to recognise the plan and purpose of God, you would not accept it. Right? Instead, you like the other fellow, the OP, chose to attribute the very plan and purpose of God to satan. This is the same as the Pharisee.

That's not true. I don't claim to know one way or the other.

Judaism is true because Jesus is the Lamb of God the Messiah, anyone calling him satan, have instead chosen the Golden Calf. The Logos came down from the mountain, but disregarding Him, choose idolatry to satan. Isn't that the way it is?

That doesn't make any sense. You're saying that the Jews who reject Jesus have chosen the Golden Calf, even though they still worship Yahweh. They didn't choose some new idol to replace Yahweh, they just didn't accept that their understanding of Him should be expanded.

 

[cvanwey]

He might be smarter and have more power, by once he starts to persuade you that you can save yourself by your good works, you know it is not of God, it is like no matter how smart someone is, he can't change simple math.

I think you misunderstood my prior response. Satan would be smart enough to know there exists many Christians, like yourself, whom adhere to the conclusion that no number of 'works' 'earns a place in paradise. For you, Satan would be well aware, even more so than myself, that you believe the way to heaven is through faith in Jesus. For you, Satan would be crafty enough to know what it takes for you to continue to worship him, the false god posing as a man named Jesus, whom also claimed to be the Messiah. But instead was Satan all along... For you, his work is already done. As you pray, and feel you are speaking to the holy spirit, Satan merely sits back and watches, as you praise the incorrect entity, which will banish you to hell for breaking the first commandment.

There is no way for you to distinguish whom you are actually speaking to (i.e.) yourself, Satan, Jesus, other...

 

[dcalling]

I think you misunderstood my prior response. Satan would be smart enough to know there exists many Christians, like yourself, whom adhere to the conclusion that no number of 'works' 'earns a place in paradise. For you, Satan would be well aware, even more so than myself, that you believe the way to heaven is through faith in Jesus. For you, Satan would be crafty enough to know what it takes for you to continue to worship him, the false god posing as a man named Jesus, whom also claimed to be the Messiah. But instead was Satan all along... For you, his work is already done. As you pray, and feel you are speaking to the holy spirit, Satan merely sits back and watches, as you praise the incorrect entity, which will banish you to hell for breaking the first commandment.

There is no way for you to distinguish whom you are actually speaking to (i.e.) yourself, Satan, Jesus, other...

Well, Jesus/God does not speak to me directly, it is done through scripture. As we believe in the existence of God, it is our job to read the scriptures and see which one is real and which one is not, and we also know that God is a good God and powerful enough to preserve his own message.

So now the issue is there are many messages, which one is real? We need to read the books and decide. The message has to be: 1. Good (i.e. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself), 2 consistent (both internally and logically).

So yes people are getting fooled, but if they are willing to put in time and effort and soften their heart enough, it should not be hard to see the message.

For example you are thinking that I might got fooled, that the Bible is not the right message. But have you read the Bible? What questions do you have? And most of all, why are you so sure that you are not fooled by Satan or your own hardened heart when you assert that the Christans are fooled?

 

[cvanwey]

Well, Jesus/God does not speak to me directly, it is done through scripture.

So when you read the NT, you hear Jesus speak to you? Or is it when you read scripture, you feel a presence. I'm not sure what you mean here?

As we believe in the existence of God, it is our job to read the scriptures and see which one is real and which one is not,

Why do you conclude the existence of God? "You can't get something from nothing?" "Without a God, life has no intrinsic meaning?" Other? This question is surely not meant to be condescending. I'm actually quite curious how you (know) there must be a divine singular creator, verses the many other probably conclusions?

and we also know that God is a good God and powerful enough to preserve his own message.

How did you determine that your believed God is 'good'? As I'm sure you are aware, you can certainly pick out many parts in the Bible to contradict that notion. But I am a moral relativist, so what do I know? So I guess I'm asking, is it that 'God is good' because anything God instructs or commands must be 'for good'? Or, were you able to discern this conclusion on your own accord?

So now the issue is there are many messages, which one is real? We need to read the books and decide. The message has to be: 1. Good (i.e. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself), 2 consistent (both internally and logically).

I don't find the message consistent though. So how do we determine which one of us is correct? But even if everything you say was true, (i.e.) the book expresses pure love and is consistent throughout, how does such writings manifest or prove the existence of a singular God? Couldn't humans write such stories and assertions without there ever being aware of an actual God? Meaning, is it possible that all is written by humans, and their own thoughts?

So yes people are getting fooled, but if they are willing to put in time and effort and soften their heart enough, it should not be hard to see the message.

Couldn't I say the same thing about the many other religions you've declined, which you might have never even heard of, in which you decided to reject without appropriate investigation? Most of us have not given all assertions a fare shake, as there exists too many to do so... Not including the ones you may never have heard of...

For example you are thinking that I might got fooled, that the Bible is not the right message. But have you read the Bible?

Yes I have. Before I started to read the Bible, I was brought up believing it is true - (indoctrinated). I was too intellectually lazy to actually read the claimed source. But after I started to read it for myself, and see that some events in there do not appear to jive with my 'known' reality, I started to question... When the answers received were not satisfying, along with never feeling any presence from 'above', I started to research for myself...

For me, it is about the following...

- Claimed events, which are actually falsifiable, do not correlate with later 'provable' or 'falsifiable' discovery

- The collection of books do not appear consistent, (especially from the OT to the NT)

- I have never witnessed anything supernatural, which makes me skeptical

- I prayed for 30+ years and nothing; no feelings, no nothing. Instead just wishful thinking alone...

- Nothing written in the Bible appears to be forward thinking or forwarding knowing, (no foreknowledge given which might at least demonstrate a 'higher intelligence' was demonstrated to at least conclude such messages were given by something or someone other than mere human beings)

What questions do you have?

My question for you is, how do you (know) when you read the Bible, you are not just reading a collection of stories written by humans, and humans alone?

And most of all, why are you so sure that you are not fooled by Satan or your own hardened heart when you assert that the Christians are fooled?

I'm not, that's why I'm on here All I can use is my own reasoning. And yet, all I'M asking for, is LESS than most. Which is... The knowledge of existence to this claimed God. I asked for decades. God appears to be the best hide-and-seeker imaginable. There appears no logical reason to remain hidden. This would not ruin 'free will'. I could live the rest of my life knowing which God is the real God, and still decide whether I wish to accept, love, and follow (or) reject Him for numerous reasons...

Writings from a book, with 'facts' or assertions which do not correlate with 'testable' human discovery does not appear to be a righteous path to convey 'truth'????

The moral argument does not sway me one way or another... If Yahweh exists, Yahweh could state to 'rape babies daily for fun'. If Yahweh exists, and Yahweh is proven to exist, then the moral implications are, quite frankly, disconnected from the reality that humans would need to adhere to God's word, regardless of whether or not we agree. You know, the whole 'Euthyphro dilemma' thingy.....