Does Lucifer Have Free Will?

[Moral Orel]

Looks like we have to go back one step further away then. There is much information on the religions of the world, all practically at your fingertips. Go and seek out the truth.

Use these tools: Set up a grid
Origin, Meaning, Morality, Destiny
check them against these
Logical consistency, Empirical adequacy, Experiential relevance.

I think you're underestimating just how little we can know. If there is a being that can alter reality itself at will, then literally anything is possible.

 

[cvanwey]

E no such thing as free will.
If you can choose the former you can choose the latter.
QUOTE="cvanwey, post: 73686162, member: 409550"]And I disagree with your assertion that God 'does not impose His will on humans'. f

If He did there would be no such thing as free will.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what (you) are implying here. You only quoted/clipped a couple of very small pieces from my response. According to the tenets of Christianity, it is compulsory, like paying taxes. I also understand free will can mean differing things to differing people.

What point are YOU trying to make?

 

[SinoBen]

I think you're underestimating just how little we can know. If there is a being that can alter reality itself at will, then literally anything is possible.

I think you're underestimating the power of God. I think you should ascribe greatness to the uncreated God and not on one of His creation.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I'm not sure what (you) are implying here. You only quoted/clipped a couple of very small pieces from my response. According to the tenets of Christianity, it is compulsory, like paying taxes. I also understand free will can mean differing things to differing people.

What point are YOU trying to make?

If God imposed His will on us, we could not freely choose. Also I mentioned in my first post that Satan can't know the good of God therefore could not know or predict the works of God Incarnate. To make good on your assertion you have to prove that the works of Jesus are evil.

 

[cvanwey]

If God imposed His will on us, we could not freely choose.

And as I already mentioned, imposing a dichotomy among humans, to 'accept or burn', is no more or less compulsory then imposing law on humans to 'pay taxes or be punished' I understand you may be using the term 'free will' loosely. I.E. 'You are given free choice'. However, if you stop and think about it; really think about it, He IS imposing His will upon you If such a God does exist, again it results in being compulsory. Thanks.

Also I mentioned in my first post that Satan can't know the good of God therefore could not know or predict the works of God Incarnate.

Uuum, it's called the Old Testament. "Jesus' was a Rabbi, and read it. The best prophecies would be 'self fulfilling prophecies.'

To make good on your assertion you have to prove that the works of Jesus are evil.

I already did Satan's intent is to deceive. What better way to deceive, then to imitate a false Messiah, say things which resemble stuff from the Bible, and get billions to worship you; breaking the first commandment.

 

[Moral Orel]

I think you're underestimating the power of God. I think you should ascribe greatness to the uncreated God and not on one of His creation.

No, I'm saying that the power of God is unknowable, which is very different than me claiming I know that God's power is less than something. In fact, everything you just said has to be assumed. We can't know any of that. We can't know how powerful any supernatural entities are, we can't know if any of them are uncreated, and we can't know if one created another. These are all assumptions we would need to make because evidence for any of them is impossible.

Anything in the supernatural realm is beyond our capability to reason about because too much of it is unknowable, and impossible to fathom or comprehend.

 

[SinoBen]

No, I'm saying that the power of God is unknowable, which is very different than me claiming I know that God's power is less than something. In fact, everything you just said has to be assumed. We can't know any of that. We can't know how powerful any supernatural entities are, we can't know if any of them are uncreated, and we can't know if one created another. These are all assumptions we would need to make because evidence for any of them is impossible.

Anything in the supernatural realm is beyond our capability to reason about because too much of it is unknowable, and impossible to fathom or comprehend.

We make assumptions every day in normal living. Making useful assumptions are what we do as humans. We might be wrong sometimes but that being the case, do we throw that process out of our lives? I'd say we wouldn't be able to live a normal life without it, we wouldn't be able to progress or develop as a society.

What can you assume about the supernatural?

p.s.
Spiritually speaking and strategically so, the road you pave (in philosophising this way) is just another one that lead away from God, that personal God who told you who you are and who you are made to be. His name is Yahweh and he values you.

 

[Eloy Craft]

And as I already mentioned, imposing a dichotomy among humans, to 'accept or burn', is no more or less compulsory then imposing law on humans to 'pay taxes or be punished'

For that analogy to be accurate people must choose to believe they have to pay taxes or face punishment.

Uuum, it's called the Old Testament. "Jesus' was a Rabbi, and read it. The best prophecies would be 'self fulfilling prophecies.'

If that were true Jesus would have been a messiah well accepted. The fact that so few could grasp Jesus' teaching nor refute it is evidence of a higher good revealed not a deception. Also Divine Revelation has characteristics that deception can't duplicate. Deception relies on known concepts arranged in a way that can be easily understood and desired. Divine Revelation introduces never before known concepts that require new combinations of words and new words altogether. Not knowing such things Satan can only bring up the forgotten past, little metaphysics known by few or material facts yet discovered by science..

I already did Satan's intent is to deceive. What better way to deceive, then to imitate a false Messiah, say things which resemble stuff from the Bible, and get billions to worship you; breaking the first commandment.

Satan's intent isn't a mystery but you may hit on a few tricks he might pull in the future.

 

[Steve Petersen]

"Does Lucifer have free will?"

This presupposes his existence.

 

[Moral Orel]

We make assumptions every day in normal living. Making useful assumptions are what we do as humans. We might be wrong sometimes but that being the case, do we throw that process out of our lives? I'd say we wouldn't be able to live a normal life without it, we wouldn't be able to progress or develop as a society.

I think you're mixing up "assumptions" with "educated guesses". An assumption is something you believe with no evidence being possible to back it up. "I saw a miracle" is not evidence for "The source of that miracle created the universe". There's no connecting the two concepts, so it is an assumption.

What can you assume about the supernatural?

Anything. Absolutely anything.

 

[cvanwey]

"Does Lucifer have free will?"

This presupposes his existence.

Well, we are on CF. There be a-lot-a presuppos'n go'in on

 

[SinoBen]

I think you're mixing up "assumptions" with "educated guesses". An assumption is something you believe with no evidence being possible to back it up. "I saw a miracle" is not evidence for "The source of that miracle created the universe". There's no connecting the two concepts, so it is an assumption.

Anything. Absolutely anything.

I am done.

 

[cvanwey]

For that analogy to be accurate people must choose to believe they have to pay taxes or face punishment.

I find your 'rationale' peculiar. Take America for instance.... If you live in America, and are especially of age, you are aware of the existence of taxes. You are also aware that the law states that if you collect income, you are required to pay taxes. You are then also aware the law also states if you do not comply with this compulsory proposition, we will face consequences.

Thus, it is not a choice to believe this dichotomy exists. You are either aware of this existing law. Or, you live in a 'cave' somewhere, completely disconnected from reality, or maybe have a severe cognitive handicap.

In conclusion...

- We are aware of the existence of taxes
- We are aware of the the compulsory proposition, or consequences invoked upon us, if we choose not to comply
- If we are not, we are either too young, live in a 'cave', maybe possess a cognitive handy cap, other extreme circumstance

Christianity poses many similar traits. Just take the above, and replace [taxes] with [Yahweh]. This would assume, of course, the same proof of existence in Yahweh, in which we have for taxes . Which we may not have, but let's just assume we do... (i.e.)

- We are aware of the existence of Yahweh
- We are aware of the the compulsory proposition, or consequences invoked upon us, if we choose not to comply
- If we are not, we are either too young, live in a 'cave', maybe possess a cognitive handy cap, other extreme circumstance

If that were true Jesus would have been a messiah well accepted. The fact that so few could grasp Jesus' teaching nor refute it is evidence of a higher good revealed not a deception.

Most were illiterate. Many would believe as soon as they saw him perform magic, while saying he was the messiah. Knowledge of fulfilled prophecy would take time and literacy. But as they say, "all 'good' things come to those whom wait." Satan was thinking 'long term', so that successive later generations would 'connect the dots.' Satan could then relax, and admire the fruits of his 'dirty work.' 'All good plans take time.' And yes, not everyone will believe. But he also impersonated Muhammad, and all the other fakes as well Frees up more time to instigate and deceive the stragglers - (the ones on the proverbial fence).

Also Divine Revelation has characteristics that deception can't duplicate. Deception relies on known concepts arranged in a way that can be easily understood and desired. Divine Revelation introduces never before known concepts that require new combinations of words and new words altogether. Not knowing such things Satan can only bring up the forgotten past, little metaphysics known by few or material facts yet discovered by science..

Satan is smarter than all humans. He is even smarter than you. He would know how to deceive you specifically. Remember all the traits Satan can possess, already aforementioned many times now in this entire thread.

Satan's intent isn't a mystery but you may hit on a few tricks he might pull in the future.

No it isn't a mystery. He mimics prophets, messiahs, and all others, to get the majority of the masses to worship false deities; sending themselves to hell without requiring further intervention.

 

[Eloy Craft]

hus, it is not a choice to believe this dichotomy exists. You are either aware of this existing law. Or, you live in a 'cave' somewhere, completely disconnected from reality, or maybe have a severe cognitive handicap.

There are many who reject God even after He reveals Himself to them. They would rather suffer the consequences than pay taxes. They do have that choice.

We are aware of the existence of Yahweh
- We are aware of the the compulsory proposition, or consequences invoked upon us, if we choose not to comply
- If we are not, we are either too young, live in a 'cave', maybe possess a cognitive handy cap, other extreme circumstance

Good point. awareness is a key issue. I would venture to saY that prison is a bit more concrete a reality in the mind of Christians than hell is.

Most were illiterate. Many would believe as soon as they saw him perform magic, while saying he was the messiah. Knowledge of fulfilled prophecy would take time and literacy.

That's just not the way it works. If what you are thinking was true Jesus wouldn't have been totally rejected and utterly abandoned.

Satan was thinking 'long term', so that successive later generations would 'connect the dots.'

So, should we still be waiting for the messiah like the Jews?

Satan is smarter than all humans.

The higheswt power of intellect is it's ability to receive Grace and become holy and perfect. A Christian need not fear Satan. Satan can't of his own volition fulfill prophecy. That does require omnipresence and knowledge and power. He relies on the times and seasons just as any other creature.

He mimics prophets, messiahs, and all others, to get the majority of the masses to worship false deities; sending themselves to hell without requiring further intervention.

Maybe the finger of Satan wrote the commands on the stone tablets too.

 

[cvanwey]

There are many who reject God even after He reveals Himself to them. They would rather suffer the consequences than pay taxes. They do have that choice.

As stated prior, you have the freedom to choose. But you stated God does not impose His will. Well, the God of the Bible, as with the IRS, are both imposing their will, so-to-speak. These agencies are the rule makers. Yes, you can defy such authority, by choice. However, authority then imposes their will You go to hell, or are fined/sentenced to prison for noncompliance. Both systems are compulsory.

That's just not the way it works. If what you are thinking was true Jesus wouldn't have been totally rejected and utterly abandoned.
So, should we still be waiting for the messiah like the Jews?

Disagree. If this fake messiah performs dozens of highly witnessed miracles, for many to see, many would spread such stories over and over. Soon, people would write about these claims. As nature tends to lead most humans to believe in an intentional agent, whom is looking out for us and created us, it's likely many would take to this being as a 'God'.

Couple this with the later legalized theocracy, headed by Constantine, Satan's plan slowly fell into place. He then later moved on to imitating Muhammad centuries later

The higheswt power of intellect is it's ability to receive Grace and become holy and perfect. A Christian need not fear Satan. Satan can't of his own volition fulfill prophecy. That does require omnipresence and knowledge and power. He relies on the times and seasons just as any other creature.

You are either blankly asserting this conclusion, or you are referencing passages from the NT, which Satan inspired.

Maybe the finger of Satan wrote the commands on the stone tablets too.

That's the OT, not the NT.

 

[Eloy Craft]

As stated prior, you have the freedom to choose. But you stated God does not impose His will. Well, the God of the Bible, as with the IRS, are both imposing their will, so-to-speak. These agencies are the rule makers. Yes, you can defy such authority, by choice. However, authority then imposes their will You go to hell, or are fined/sentenced to prison for noncompliance. Both systems are compulsory.

If someone tells you if you drive your car with no brakes you'll crash and you do it anyway and crash were they imposing their will on you?

That's the OT, not the NT.

How do you distinguish the works of God from the works of Satan?

 

[cvanwey]

If someone tells you if you drive your car with no brakes you'll crash and you do it anyway and crash were they imposing their will on you?

Without getting straight what [you] define as 'free will' and what I define as 'free will', I will answer the question regardless.

(i.e.)

If you are human, God has imposed a set of laws and conditions for all humans to follow. If you do not, the only alternative is hell. There exists no escape. There exists no refuge. There exists no opt-out. 'Universal law'

If you decide to stay in the U.S., there exists a set of imposed laws in which all Americans are to follow. If you do not, you will be punished. However, there exists an escape. There exists refuge. There exists an opt-out.

If you are told you must drive a car with no brakes, then you have been imposed upon. Otherwise, I can decide to sell the car. I can decide to ride a bike. I could borrow someone else's car. I could get my brakes fixed.

With God's will, and the IRS, I have no such 'choices.' If I am human, will is imposed (believe or burn). If I am American, will is imposed from the IRS (pay or be punished). But in the case for the IRS scenario, I could still choose to leave the country and find another country and abide by their imposing rules, if there exists any.

How do you distinguish the works of God from the works of Satan?

Awesome question. I ask a similar one to theists all the time. You tell me? Can you even distinguish voices from your own consciousness, verses from God, from Satan, and/or from any other? All-the-while, acknowledging that humans possess fallible traits and senses.

In your case, I state you cannot. Hence, the topic.

 

[TLK Valentine]

"Does Lucifer have free will?"

This presupposes his existence.

So let's assume his existence as a premise for this discussion.

If Lucifer has free will, doesn't that mean that he could repent of his sins and be forgiven? If so, and if he does, what does that mean in terms of Christian theology?

If he does not have free will, then can he really be held responsible for his actions? Wouldn't that mean that ultimately, God is responsible for the evils of the world?

 

[cvanwey]

So let's assume his existence as a premise for this discussion.

If Lucifer has free will, doesn't that mean that he could repent of his sins and be forgiven? If so, and if he does, what does that mean in terms of Christian theology?

I would want to say no. Repentance, according to Christian doctrine, would require doing so prior to natural death. However, if the ruler maker/imposer is all powerful and all loving, I guess God could do that, if Satan was to repent anyways?

If he does not have free will, then can he really be held responsible for his actions? Wouldn't that mean that ultimately, God is responsible for the evils of the world?

Depends on the 'definition' of free will I guess? But regardless, it would appear God is the creator of the game, and Satan is just the player; and you know how that old saying goes

Dont Hate The Player Hate The Game GIF - DontHateThePlayerHateTheGame - Discover & Share GIFs

 

[TLK Valentine]

I would want to say no. Repentance, according to Christian doctrine, would require doing so prior to natural death. However, if the ruler maker/imposer is all powerful and all loving, I guess God could do that, if Satan was to repent anyways?

Last I checked, Lucifer wasn't dead -- either naturally or by any other means.

Depends of the 'definition' of free will i guess? But regardless, it would appear God is the creator of the game, and Satan is just the player; and you know how that old saying goes

Dont Hate The Player Hate The Game GIF - DontHateThePlayerHateTheGame - Discover & Share GIFs

I'm thinking of another old saying: