Does Jesus quote 1 Enoch?

[JacksBratt]

The bible says Enoch died not seeing
the promises. The bible says no regular
man has been into heaven.

What does the book of enoch say?

Can you tell me where it says Enoch died? From what I read.. "He was no more cause God took him"

 

[JacksBratt]

Right.

He could be teaching a concept, that when putting many verses and teachings from the OT together, one could see and understand that humans will be like angels in the resurrection.

he doesn’t necessarily have to be quoting a specific verse.

That argument can be made.. However, looks pretty certain that He is talking about a certain scripture, not a concept... to me anyway.

 

[JacksBratt]

I voted no.
Jesus was before the world began. Enoch was not HIS source.

As a side note I think Paul's teaching on the resurrected body is cohesive with "like the angels of God"

I don't think that anyone is saying that Enoch was His source.

I think they are saying that Christ is quoting something that HE considers scripture that is known to His audience... and telling them what it says.. Quite possible words that Enoch wrote and those listening to Christ were well aware and familiar with it.

 

[SeventyOne]

How many times is this been proven to be true?

Would this number include news stories? Not sure I can count that high.

 

[DamianWarS]

I don't think that anyone is saying that Enoch was His source.

I think they are saying that Christ is quoting something that HE considers scripture that is known to His audience... and telling them what it says.. Quite possible words that Enoch wrote and those listening to Christ were well aware and familiar with it.

his audience were the Sadducees who accepted only the Pentateuch as scripture. He may have been quoting something everyone was familiar with and broadly accepted but if he quoted outside of the Pentateuch and presented it as scripture it would have been rejected by the Sadducees and called out, instead it says he silenced them.

Christ does quote explicit scripture to them but he is careful to select from the Pentateuch over other pro-resurrection verses that are far clearer (like Daniel 12:2) and what he does choose is quite creative. Because of how careful he is with the scripture that is undisputed it would seem irrational to quote Enoch as well.

I would think what he did say about the angels was already broadly accepted or he was speaking matter of factly simply because he knows it to be true (he was around when the angels were made), perhaps in riddles because he knew they were not well versed on Enoch so they would never catch it, or maybe his latter comments were powerful enough that it didn't matter what he quoted prior to that, he might have been playing with them. Jesus was pretty good at layered messages.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Can you tell me where it says Enoch died? From what I read.. "He was no more cause God took him"

Jesus Himself said: "No man hath ascended
up to heaven,but he that came down from
heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13)

That Enoch was not found because God took him,
or "translated" him. The primary meaning is to
"convey to another place ... transfer". It does
not say he went to heaven at that time.

Jacob died his body was "carried over"

This same Greek word is rendered
"carried over" in Acts 7:16.

After Jacob died his body was "carried over"
- transported, translated - to Sychem where
he was buried!

Moses died and was buried by God.
God removed Moses - God translated
him - and he was not found either.

"all the days of Enoch were three hundred
sixty and five years"

If Enoch did not die - if he were changed to immortality - and thus continued to walk with God, then his days would have been more than three hundred and sixty-five years.
-

Enoch is included by Paul in ( Hebrews 11:1-12)
among the fathers who obtained a good report
through faith; but"these all , having obtained
a good report through faith, received not the
promise" (Heb. 11:39).

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith."
-

Enoch lived only three hundred and sixty-five.
Clearly Enoch died a premature death

I believe Lamech, a descendant of Cain:
"I have slain a man to my wounding, and
a young man to my hurt..... (Gen. 4:23-24).
The "man"was Cain, the "young man"was
Enoch, [who died young compared to others.

Enoch walked with God. Furthermore, he
prophesied of the coming of Christ to execute
judgment and to convict the ungodly (Jude 14-15). a "preacher of righteousness"( II Peter 2:5).

I believe Lamech (by himself or with a mob)
stilled Enoch's voice by murder. God allowed
Enoch to be martyred. But He would not permit
his body to be desecrated or publicly displayed.

God took him physically away from the people, just as He later took Moses. And God buried each so well that neither has ever been found since!

-

The "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot
lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).


Paul's saying that Enoch "should not see death"
It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see"
death - but that he "should not see death."

The death which Enoch should escape must be the second death which will never touch those who are in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

Enoch and all the worthies of old will receive the
promise of eternal life at the return of Christ,
the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40)
-

Colossians 1:13: the Father "hath delivered
us from the power of darkness, and [ hath
translated us] into the kingdom of his dear Son."

He was removed (translated) from the ways of the world and lived three hundred years according to God's ways so that he might inherit eternal
life at Christ's return, and should not suffer the second death.

 

[Tone]

If Enoch did not die - if he were changed to immortality - and thus continued to walk with God, then his days would have been more than three hundred and sixty-five years.

This could be speaking of how long until he was immortalized. If he didn't go to heaven, this would make it that much more possible that he spoke with the Messiah while on earth. Enoch and John the beloved may be hanging out somewhere on earth.


Here's another way to look at it:
Contradictions: To Die or Not to Die

 

[Randy777]

I don't think that anyone is saying that Enoch was His source.

I think they are saying that Christ is quoting something that HE considers scripture that is known to His audience... and telling them what it says.. Quite possible words that Enoch wrote and those listening to Christ were well aware and familiar with it.

I don't get the sense He was quoting anything just answering the ignorance of those trying to trap Him.
He didn't state "its written in the prophets or haven't you read or its written in your law or let the reader beware" as was His practice when sourcing scripture.

 

[JacksBratt]

Jesus Himself said: "No man hath ascended
up to heaven,but he that came down from
heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13)

What then of Elijah?

That Enoch was not found because God took him,
or "translated" him. The primary meaning is to
"convey to another place ... transfer". It does
not say he went to heaven at that time.

Jacob died his body was "carried over"

This same Greek word is rendered
"carried over" in Acts 7:16.

After Jacob died his body was "carried over"
- transported, translated - to Sychem where
he was buried!

Moses died and was buried by God.
God removed Moses - God translated
him - and he was not found either.

"all the days of Enoch were three hundred
sixty and five years"

If Enoch did not die - if he were changed to immortality - and thus continued to walk with God, then his days would have been more than three hundred and sixty-five years.
-

Enoch is included by Paul in ( Hebrews 11:1-12)
among the fathers who obtained a good report
through faith; but"these all , having obtained
a good report through faith, received not the
promise" (Heb. 11:39).

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith."
-

Enoch lived only three hundred and sixty-five.
Clearly Enoch died a premature death

I believe Lamech, a descendant of Cain:
"I have slain a man to my wounding, and
a young man to my hurt..... (Gen. 4:23-24).
The "man"was Cain, the "young man"was
Enoch, [who died young compared to others.

Enoch walked with God. Furthermore, he
prophesied of the coming of Christ to execute
judgment and to convict the ungodly (Jude 14-15). a "preacher of righteousness"( II Peter 2:5).

I believe Lamech (by himself or with a mob)
stilled Enoch's voice by murder. God allowed
Enoch to be martyred. But He would not permit
his body to be desecrated or publicly displayed.

God took him physically away from the people, just as He later took Moses. And God buried each so well that neither has ever been found since!

-

The "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot
lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).


Paul's saying that Enoch "should not see death"
It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see"
death - but that he "should not see death."

The death which Enoch should escape must be the second death which will never touch those who are in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

Enoch and all the worthies of old will receive the
promise of eternal life at the return of Christ,
the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40)
-

Colossians 1:13: the Father "hath delivered
us from the power of darkness, and [ hath
translated us] into the kingdom of his dear Son."

He was removed (translated) from the ways of the world and lived three hundred years according to God's ways so that he might inherit eternal
life at Christ's return, and should not suffer the second death.

So, Enoch still didn't die. God took him. Just like Elijah didn't die but was taken.

I believe that Enoch and Elijah or Moses will be the two witnesses..

It is appointed unto men.. once to die... Enoch and Elijah didn't .... Elijah's spirit was in John the baptist though.

 

[Semper-Fi]

What then of Elijah?

So, Enoch still didn't die. God took him. Just like Elijah didn't die but was taken.

Enoch is included in ( Hebrews 11:1-12)
"These all [including Enoch] died in faith."
-

He was taken by chariots of fire up into
the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).

Elijah did not die or go to the 3rd heaven,
during this experience.
In fact, Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram
years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12).

Elijah had been miraculously transported
to another location on Earth.

Heaven is not, as some believe, the future
home of any man, righteous or not.
Revelation 5:10 shows that God’s saints
will reign not in heaven but “on the earth.”

 

[paul1149]

Enoch is included by Paul in ( Hebrews 11:1-12)
among the fathers who obtained a good report
through faith; but"these all , having obtained
a good report through faith, received not the
promise" (Heb. 11:39).

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith."
-

Enoch lived only three hundred and sixty-five.
Clearly Enoch died a premature death

How do you square that with verse 5 of this passage?

By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. - Heb 11:5 NKJV​

 

[Semper-Fi]

How do you square that with verse 5 of this passage?

By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. - Heb 11:5 NKJV​

God took him and buried him, just like Moses
was buried by God. see post # 86

Paul's saying that Enoch "should not see death"
It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see"
death - but that he "should not see death."


13 These all died in faith, [including Enoch]
not having received the promises....

In John 8:51 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say
unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall
never see death" - shall never see - that is,
suffer - the second death!

And again in John 11:26, "Whosoever liveth
and believeth in me shall never die"- or "shall
not die forever."

It is appointed man once to die.

Enoch had faith. He believed God and walked
with God, obeying Him. Paul shows that to
abide in this Kingdom we must "walk worthy
of the Lord unto all pleasing."

This is exactly what Enoch did. He
walked with God, and pleased God.

 

[paul1149]

Paul's saying that Enoch "should not see death"
It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see"
death - but that he "should not see death."

μετετέθη Was Translated G3346 V-API-3S τοῦ G3588 T-GSM μὴ Not G3361 PRT-N ἰδεῖν To See G1492 V-2AAN θάνατον Death,​

The verb is in the Aorist tense - point-action, usually in the past. True of TR, Byz, Nestle, SBL text forms. I see nothing subjunctive about it.

 

[Semper-Fi]

μετετέθη Was Translated G3346 V-API-3S τοῦ G3588 T-GSM μὴ Not G3361 PRT-N ἰδεῖν To See G1492 V-2AAN θάνατον Death,​

The verb is in the Aorist tense - point-action, usually in the past. True of TR, Nestle, SBL text forms. I see nothing subjunctive about it.

He Was Translated [or moved and buried by God]
The second death will not touch him.

 

[paul1149]

He Was Translated [or moved and buried by God]
The second death will not touch him.

I don't see this as a satisfactory resolution of "he did not see death". But to each his own.

 

[Semper-Fi]

I don't see this as a satisfactory resolution of "he did not see death". But to each his own.

Would that not conflict with Jesus Himself
said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven, even
the Son of man" (John 3:13)

Enoch is included by Paul in ( Hebrews 11:1-12)
"These all [including Enoch] died in faith."

Psalms 89:48 (KJV)
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

 

[paul1149]

Would that not conflict with Jesus Himself
said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven, even
the Son of man" (John 3:13)

Enoch is included by Paul in ( Hebrews 11:1-12)
"These all [including Enoch] died in faith."

Psalms 89:48 (KJV)
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

We have to consider the context of Scripture when evaluating these verses. The writer of Hebrews had just explicitly stated that Enoch did not experience death. When he then says "all these died..", it is reasonable to conclude that he is referring to the others he had just listed, with Enoch being an exception.

In Jn 3, when Jesus states that no one has ascended to heaven, He is making the point in the flow of the conversation with Nicodemus that He is the ultimate authority on heavenly things, Enoch and Elijah may have ascended, but they did not then descend in order to teach as had Christ.

I take Ps 89.48 to be a general statement of truth. Man does not have power over death. But we have been given the exceptions of Enoch and Elijah.

 

[JSRG]

Except there was a written source at the time. Can you name any other 'scripture' at the time which was actually just some oral tradition?

Well, firstly, Jude doesn't use the word 'scripture.' He doesn't even use 'written.' He just says this was prophesied by Enoch. If there was some oral tradition of a prophecy attributed to Enoch (or even one detailed in a now-lost written work), then it would hardly be implausible for a book that attributes itself to him to make use of it, meaning both it and Jude were relying on a mutual source.

Granted, it's absolutely possible that Jude is in fact quoting the "Book of Enoch," but this is lending endorsement only to that portion, not the full thing. But to answer your question of 'some oral tradition,' this is exactly the explanation many give for Matthew 2:23.

 

[Semper-Fi]

We have to consider the context of Scripture when evaluating these verses.

You might consider that there is
2 deaths mentioned in scripture.

One happens to all, unless alive
when Christ returns. There is also
2 resurrections to consider.


[Enoch and Elijah may have ascended]

"No man hath ascended up to heaven"

 

[SeventyOne]

Well, firstly, Jude doesn't use the word 'scripture.' He doesn't even use 'written.' He just says this was prophesied by Enoch. If there was some oral tradition of a prophecy attributed to Enoch (or even one detailed in a now-lost written work), then it would hardly be implausible for a book that attributes itself to him to make use of it, meaning both it and Jude were relying on a mutual source.

Granted, it's absolutely possible that Jude is in fact quoting the "Book of Enoch," but this is lending endorsement only to that portion, not the full thing. But to answer your question of 'some oral tradition,' this is exactly the explanation many give for Matthew 2:23.

Well, Jesus used the word 'scripture'. Jude used the word 'prophecy' and we are told by Peter that all prophecy originates with God. Ignore it. Don't ignore it. It's all up to each of you. Personally, I won't be ignoring scripture because somebody tells me to do so. To each his own, I suppose.