Does hell prove GOD is mean spirited?

[TedT]

Sounds like you believe your personal interpretation of scripture is supreme over what anyone else understands about the gospel

Why would my faith and commitment to my faith be seen as intransigence while yours is seen as supporting your integrity??? Double standard much?

 

[RickReads]

Why would my faith and commitment to my faith be seen as intransigence while yours is seen as supporting your integrity??? Double standard much?

I think you are adding a couple of words that I didn't use. However, I haven't reviewed enough of your posts to make a firm opinion about my assertion. that is the impression you give me though. That you believe you understand the scripture in ways no one does.

it is premature of me to say so since I haven't taken the time to really understand what you believe.
We may agree on a lot of things for all I know.

 

[RickReads]

Why would my faith and commitment to my faith be seen as intransigence while yours is seen as supporting your integrity??? Double standard much?

Your remarks on free will are interesting. you would have enjoyed our Calvinism debates a while back.

 

[RickReads]

If a fully sanctified person will not sin then how can a person being full of sin and fully sinful choose to stop sinning? The Bible says sinners are slaves to sin and that is their condition when they get saved.

The question is rhetorical.

Thx for correcting me.

 

[TedT]

That you believe you understand the scripture in ways no one does.

But I am not alone but one of many...I have studied theology and scripture a bit more than some others though...

 

[RickReads]

But I am not alone but one of many...I have studied theology and scripture a bit more than some others though...

I don't think very many believe that the elect are responsible for the world's sin or that you get saved without God's help. if I understand you correctly those are your positions.

 

[Jipsah]

They are not beyond redemption as unforgivable because GOD has chosen them to be so out of a fit of pique or meanness but because of their own free will decision to repudiate HIM as their GOD, Saviour and husband.

So it's "Reject ME, will you? Burn forever!"

 

[Mark Quayle]

PCE does NOT support the eternal nature of creation, nor reincarnation but only that all spirits created in HIS image were created at the same time before the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7, which Rom 1:18-20 can be seen to support...


All my scriptures are of the Hidden variety in which the meaning must be inferred from interpretation and context with help from the Holy Spirit...

I do have a full list of orthodox hidden mysteries but it is extensive so I won't post them unless asked or deem it to be necessary.

Such a mysterious presentation of doctrine is the way some of our favourite doctrines were not taught openly but were hidden for centuries:
the Deity of the Messiah,
the teaching that the OT was NOT the end of all scripture, (as per Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.)
that God would incarnate as a man,
that the Messiah would be an intermediary for prayer,
nor any hint of Adamic sin before the NT.
...without even getting into the words for doctrine that we use that are not in scripture: Trinity, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, incarnation, rapture.

So, scriptural doctrine without having a precise scriptural reference is a time honoured procedure, and depends upon rightly dividing the word of truth aka the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So, there you go...I have many scriptures about Adam being a sinner before Eve, a lot about a new revelation coming in the end days, about people talking about going back to somewhere else, about people knowing ALL the truth, and judgement postponed ec, etc.

Putting this into the context that the PCE has been rejected as a sideline for 4000 years and declared to be a heresy for ç2000 years with the orthodox interpretation having that weight of supported legitimacy, it is no wonder that people can read the same scriptures over and over and never even notice that it has an alternate interpretation from orthodoxy. The concept of our pce is totally absent from consciousness not just foreign...how could anyone see pce in the verses they read unless they learn of it and look for it?

To me, PCE is of the same nature as so many other notions, such as 'soul-sleep' and "hell is only separation from God". Is it what people come up with on their own (i.e. apart from Scripture) trying to reconcile what to them doesn't otherwise make sense in Scripture. PCE is not necessary to answer any questions, except questions assuming false 'facts'.

A person may as well say, "We all existed eternally in the mind of God, since God's acts are timeless. And what more solid reality is there, than the imagination (or maybe, plans) of God?" It's child's prattle. We who say such things don't know what we are talking about.

 

[TedT]

I don't think very many believe that the elect are responsible for the world's sin or that you get saved without God's help.if I understand you correctly those are your positions.

I contend that the sinful elect are responsible for the postponement of the judgment of the Satanic and therefore ARE responsible for the sufferings of sinners on earth - how else could it be when the parable distinctly tells us the angels were ordered NOT to bring the judgment upon the reprobate by pulling them up because that might destroy the sinful but elect good seed also (proving their sinfulness)...ending with the sinful elect having to live with the reprobate weeds under their tender ministrations...oh, I guess I mean the suffering they bring to the world, eh?

Anyone who knows GOD's hatred for sin and that HE cannot abide evil for one nano-second longer than is absolutely necessary must know that HE has been ready since the Satanic first fell to slam the gates of hell behind them but instead HE flings them to earth - what's with that? - and keeps them around to torment HIS future Bride, aka the sheep gone astray into sin aka the sinful good seed?

What is the loving, righteous and just reason you believe accounts for this world of suffering under the predations of evil? Why has the judgment not been called yet?

As for how many believe in this theology, I did say that not many who believe in our pre-conception existence have studied the theology. They know and sing that Jesus will take them home, that they will return to GOD when they die etc ,strongly believing that they came from heaven and will return to heaven.

What that means in theological and scriptural terms has only been deeply explored and written out (that I have come across) since ~1975-78. I rejected it immediately for my blend of Arminianistic Calvinism but once I started to understand the meaning of it's contentions and how the scriptures supported it and as the leading of the Holy Spirit became clearer to me, after some years of study I became a firm believer in the theology, not just in the fact, of our pre-conception existence.

I know I am a bad spokesperson for any theology but I have been blessed by the conversations I have had in the public forums like this one challenging me to seek deeper into the meaning of the bible and into the leading of the Spirit I follow as my GOD.

...or that you get saved without God's help.if I understand you correctly those are your positions.

You do not understand me on this point at all. I am totally orthodox about salvation being by grace alone through faith, not by works and whatever you think you saw in my words as different were a product of your own thinking...you might want to figure out how that happened.

 

[TedT]

So it's "Reject ME, will you? Burn forever!"

Hardly, though that is how Satan frames it...

The sin is not unforgivable because HE hates it so much because HE hates all sin equally for its ultimate disvalue to HIS nature! A reprobate who sins the smallest sin goes to hell. An elect who sins the smallest sin puts Christ on the cross.

So why is it unforgivable? They can't be forgiven because
1. A free will choice is inviolable:
they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. By definition all free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference, or it cannot be defined as free, that is, uncoerced and not constrained.

2. They eternally repudiated HIM and HIS saving grace by their free will:
When they repudiated YHWH as their GOD and saviour they scorned HIS claims to salvation by His grace, thus putting themselves outside of HIS mercy and grace unless they would change their mind and repent.

3. The enslavement to sin is perfect, as warned:
Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance and save themselves by changing their minds about HIM. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god, even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7 and Roman 1:18+ about those who love their sin more than the truth they have clearly seen.

Since the GOD who is love and who does not want anyone to die in hell saves by grace, He would never withhold HIS grace from anyone. The fact that some are NOT saved by HIS grace must mean that they have repudiated HIS grace as evil, putting themselves outside of it eternally, not that He has withheld it from them.

When HE asked us to choose to be HIS Bride or to reject HIM, (all true marriages must be accepted by, not forced upon, the Bride), HE promised us our choice would not be interfered with though there would be legal and natural consequences which included warnings about hell... warnings which some ignored.

This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners flung to the earth, both the sinful believers who sinned but were not condemned and those who never believed and so were condemned already, John 3:18.

They are not unforgivable because HE hates them and their sin so much more than the sins of those chosen for salvation but because they chose to put themselves outside of HIS grace and mercy forever, forcing HIM to let them go...

Aside:
The sheep who went astray became HIS sheep by putting their faith in HIM as telling us the truth and by putting their faith in the Son as their saviour from any sin or condemnation but then, after getting His promise they would never be condemned, ie, they were safe from hell, they chose to rebel against the call for judgement of their friends who were now unforgivable so as sinners now themselves, they were sentenced to have to live with their reprobate friends and suffer under their evil until they could be redeemed and fully sanctified, Matt 13: 27-30, ie, fully repent of their idolatry of their condemned friends over their GOD.

 

[TedT]

To me, PCE is of the same nature as so many other notions, such as 'soul-sleep' and "hell is only separation from God".

Interesting, especially since PCE theology denies both these false doctrines...perhaps you don't understand it as well as you think you do.

 

[Uber Genius]

Loved the OP. Greate comments as well. Noticed "Faith," being defined as, "Unproven hope."

That is the current atheist redefinition of the word, certainly.

But Pistis is trust...And not without enormous evidentiary support. Both in the gospels and in Acts we see that the growth of the early church and the model of evangelism is to share the claims of Christianity and the evidence that attests to those claims. The claims were those of eye witnesses. The evidence as conclusive as what we get in the courtroom. Since we have a rational foundation for our faith, unlike the atheist, we should talk about the reasonableness of our trust in God's goodness.

 

[Jipsah]

Hardly, though that is how Satan frames it...

Oooooh, a severely spiritual putdown! I'm sure I should be devastated. Now, having got past your obvious spiritual superiority, how is it that that isn't a concise summary of the post to which I was replying? That if anyone has the temerity to not accept God's offer of salvation, even due to complete ignorance of it, then God will chuck them into Hell to be roasted forever. Have I missed some salient point here?

The sin is not unforgivable because HE hates it so much because HE hates all sin equally for its ultimate disvalue to HIS nature! A reprobate who sins the smallest sin goes to hell. An elect who sins the smallest sin puts Christ on the cross.

Wow. So the effect is that by God's design the default for anyone who isn't a Christian is eternal torture.

Now it may be that I can't develop any real enthusiasm for that idea is that I'm eat up with sin. Nothing more likely, I'm very aware of a variety of areas in which I suck. BUT... I can't bring myself to imagine designing a system in which any part or function of my creation that failed would evoke such anger and hatred in me that I'd keep it around forever just to spite it for being faulty. I confess to being a lousy sinner, but I reckon I'd either repair it or tear it down for parts. If it was a sentient critter of any kind, I reckon I'd either put it out of my misery as humanely as possible, or, again, fix it.

We're told that God loves the world, and the His mercy endures forever. But we're also told that His anger and malice against sinners is such that He preserves than alive forever just for the sake of torturing them. Something's wrong there somewhere, don't you think? Sounds like God isn't merciful at all, or else the idea of eternal torture isn't true.

Me, I can't see God being less merciful than I am. "For God so loved the world..", right? But He's also a torturer. I see that as irreconcilable.

1. A free will choice is inviolable: they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed.

Sorry, but IMO the inclusion of a "God cannot..." in any statement renders it false. This is the "poor God..." excuse, that says "Gee whiz, God does so want this and that, but He just can't make it happen." That's rubbish. God is GOD, Who spoke the universe into being, but suddenly He's helpless because He can't correct the ill-effects of some idiotic, ill-advised, ridiculous, numb-skulled decision one of His creatures made. Really? Bah!

By definition all free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference, or it cannot be defined as free, that is, uncoerced and not constrained.

Without "God's interference" there is no creation, nor any creatures to make stupid decisions. But suddenly His creations have the power to thwart His will, and There's Nothing He Can Do. Who's in charge here, for crying out loud? US? What a ghastly thought!

God is not, nor can He be, bound by any act of His creatures, else He's no God at all. The "poor God" excuse for making God into a torturer is as pernicious as it is false.

 

[TedT]

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
HOPE:
S1679. elpizó: to expect, to hope (for)
Usage: I hope, hope for, expect, trust.

NOT SEEN:
991. blepó: to look (at)
Usage: (primarily physical), I look, see, perceive, discern.

iF we have belief or faith in something we hope for but have not seen, perceived to be true or discerned to be real then we are left with a faith as an UNPROVEN hope...we hope without proof.

 

[TedT]

Have I missed some salient point here?

Indeed.

You have missed GOD's nature as perfectly loving which according to scripture means HE is perfectly patient.

Saved by grace and not by works implies that all are saved IN our own disavowal of HIS offer of salvation for some matter of years or even tens of years, implying that HIS perfect patience would not shut the gates of hell on anyone IF THEY COULD REPENT! HE would outwait them, especially after a millennia or two of suffering hell!

What is the difference to the eternal GOD between 80 years of non-repentance and a million years of non-repentance?

The doctrine of being in hell for non-acceptance of the gospel is hard to hold because it has people in hell forever who could be saved at any time if they would repent...but GOD refuses to wait any longer and shuts them in forever. This denigrates HIS loving patience as limited which is why I contend that only those who have sinned the unforgivable sin and so cannot be redeemed will be damned.

Hell is only for those who cannot be saved because their sin has put them outside of HIS grace and loving mercy, ie, they are NOT damned for a lack of loving patience in the face of their continued rejection of the gospel.

About now I usually get reminded that HE doesn't wait because He knows omnisciently who will never repent even after suffering a millennia or two in hell. Yet HE tells us HE gets no pleasure from the death of anyone and that HE desires that none perish but that all would repent, so, if HE knew before their creation who would end in an eternal hell against these desires and HIS pleasure, all HE would have to do to keep hell empty would be to not create them in the first place!! Easy peasy!

A cannot be not A at the same time in the same form so doing all for HIS own pleasure and not taking any pleasure in hell cannot mean HE also creates people knowing they will end in hell nor can it mean HE suspends HIS loving patience until hell is slammed shut against HIS own desire. Especially since HE is not a house divided...

 

[Mark Quayle]

Interesting, especially since PCE theology denies both these false doctrines...perhaps you don't understand it as well as you think you do.

I purposely mentioned those two; I expected you to agree those are mental attempts to bring certain doctrines together, so I had hoped you would recognize the same thing being attempted by PCE.

 

[Der Alte]

To the OP. Words of Jedsus Only.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:[kolasis] but the righteous into life eternal.​

The Greek word "kolasis" translated "punishment" in this vs. occurs one other time in the N.T. , In jn 4:18.

1 John 4:18
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment[kolasis]. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

He that fears has kolasis/torment and is not made perfect. The "torment" is NOT corrective as some folks argue.
According to Jesus "aionios" the Greek word correctly translated "eternal" does in the fact mean "eternal."
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated 'world' only 5 times in the N.T.
“ainios” is translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer anything common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In the following verses aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal because it sometimes refer to something which is not eternal.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as it is defined/described as "eternal" in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternity.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios [eternal] meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

 

[RickReads]

I contend that the sinful elect are responsible for the postponement of the judgment of the Satanic and therefore ARE responsible for the sufferings of sinners on earth - how else could it be when the parable distinctly tells us the angels were ordered NOT to bring the judgment upon the reprobate by pulling them up because that might destroy the sinful but elect good seed also (proving their sinfulness)...ending with the sinful elect having to live with the reprobate weeds under their tender ministrations...oh, I guess I mean the suffering they bring to the world, eh?

Anyone who knows GOD's hatred for sin and that HE cannot abide evil for one nano-second longer than is absolutely necessary must know that HE has been ready since the Satanic first fell to slam the gates of hell behind them but instead HE flings them to earth - what's with that? - and keeps them around to torment HIS future Bride, aka the sheep gone astray into sin aka the sinful good seed?

What is the loving, righteous and just reason you believe accounts for this world of suffering under the predations of evil? Why has the judgment not been called yet?

As for how many believe in this theology, I did say that not many who believe in our pre-conception existence have studied the theology. They know and sing that Jesus will take them home, that they will return to GOD when they die etc ,strongly believing that they came from heaven and will return to heaven.

What that means in theological and scriptural terms has only been deeply explored and written out (that I have come across) since ~1975-78. I rejected it immediately for my blend of Arminianistic Calvinism but once I started to understand the meaning of it's contentions and how the scriptures supported it and as the leading of the Holy Spirit became clearer to me, after some years of study I became a firm believer in the theology, not just in the fact, of our pre-conception existence.

I know I am a bad spokesperson for any theology but I have been blessed by the conversations I have had in the public forums like this one challenging me to seek deeper into the meaning of the bible and into the leading of the Spirit I follow as my GOD.

You do not understand me on this point at all. I am totally orthodox about salvation being by grace alone through faith, not by works and whatever you think you saw in my words as different were a product of your own thinking...you might want to figure out how that happened.

Here's the problem with that. You believe that judgment has been postponed. There is no Biblical basis to believe that. The day of judgment is an appointed time, has been from the beginning.

You also say you cannot be held at fault for Adam's sin. Yet you make the elect responsible for the sins of the lost. God would not allow a double standard like that.

The elect are not causing the judgment to be postponed they are preventing it from coming early.

On the other point, grace is an act of God. Even your faith is given to you by God. The lost cannot come to Jesus without Gods help. Without this help You cannot make a choice for Christ.

You just won't do it.

 

[TedT]

You believe that judgment has been postponed. There is no Biblical basis to believe that. The day of judgment is an appointed time, has been from the beginning.

The setting of the time was chosen to include the postponement...

Please consider:
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, without metaphor, in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness ! a complete separation of the people of the kingdom in their hearts from the people of the evil one. Only then will the judgement day arrive.

That is how we can speed up that great and terrible day of the LORD, by holy and godly living:
2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.

 

[TedT]

ou also say you cannot be held at fault for Adam's sin. Yet you make the elect responsible for the sins of the lost. God would not allow a double standard like that.

Which rabbit hole did you pull this from? I claimed nothing of the kind, in fact just the opposite!!

I contend that it was the sins of the reprobate lost as you call them, which came first and had them condemned on the spot for this unforgivable sin while the elect were choosing to put their faith in YHWH as telling them the truth about the full gospel and YHWH's deity so as to came under HIS promise of election to salvation from all sin if they ever heeded it.

Once the Satanic were judged as condemned GOD called all HIS elect to come out from among their now eternally evil friends and lovers so the judgement could proceed without harm to any elect since HE knew their hearts. That is, some elect, feeling safe from hell by their election to be saved from all sin, out of sympathy for the devil and idolatry of all the condemned over their GOD, rebelled against this command which caused their fall (as sheep going astray) so that they needed redemption and training in righteousness unto full sanctification, ie, a full accord with HIS plans for the eternally evil ones.

The elect by sinning are not responsible for the SINS of the reprobate but they certainly are responsible for causing all the SUFFERING on earth while they learn to give up their idolatry of the goats and learn to be righteous. Without their sin those condemned already would have been banished to the outer darkness of hell from this reality and the Kingdom of the heavenly marriage started a long long time ago.