Does Hebrews 3 and 4 do away with Sabbath?

[StormyOne]

Punishment can be effective, but it is at the bottom of the spectrum of discipline. A last resort. Until there is an acute failure in relationship, punishing a child is not necessary. Even when a child does hurtful, risky things. But that requires enough awareness on the part of the parent - and child - to be in relationship through good discipline. And the learning that follows. It's much easier to punish than to discipline. That's part of why we love heaven/hell theology so much. It's supports our laziness.

(Stormy, I recognize that in your field you regularly are dealing with conditions that make this immensely more challenging.)

As parents, most of us fall short - but to greatly varying degrees. Our intention should be falling less short.

True Avonia, however you are on point.... discipline is a way of life and should be taught whenever possible. Punishment is used to make us feel good, and not the one being punished. It also instills fear so that the consequence is not, "I'll never do that again," but, "I will find a way to do that and not get caught." As I said before, relationships based on fear are NOT healthy relationships..... so it says a lot about people pushing heaven to avoid hell...

 

[k4c]

Nope, I am asking you why you are rejecting sabbath directives that ARE biblical... I haven't called Jesus anything, so don't evade the question, answer it....

You really need to stop your double talk...

You made the dogmatic statement that leaving your house on the Sabbath was a violation of the Sabbath, which shows your lack of understanding or your willfull deceptive tactics to make the Sabbath a burden, rather than, a delight.

Jesus and His disciples were outside on the Sabbath thus making them a Sabbath breaker and a sinner, according you.

 

[k4c]

Punishment can be effective, but it is at the bottom of the spectrum of discipline. A last resort. Until there is an acute failure in relationship, punishing a child is not necessary. Even when a child does hurtful, risky things. But that requires enough awareness on the part of the parent - and child - to be in relationship through good discipline. And the learning that follows. It's much easier to punish than to discipline. That's part of why we love heaven/hell theology so much. It's supports our laziness.

(Stormy, I recognize that in your field you regularly are dealing with conditions that make this immensely more challenging.)

As parents, most of us fall short - but to greatly varying degrees. Our intention should be falling less short.

I'm not talking about punishment, I'm talking about fear of punishment, there's a difference.

 

[Avonia]

You made the dogmatic statement that leaving your house on the Sabbath was a violation of the Sabbath, which shows your lack of understanding or your willfull deceptive tactics to make the Sabbath a burden, rather than, a delight.

Where the rubber meets the road is a quick survey of SDA kids on whether the Sabbath seems like a burden or a delight.

 

[StormyOne]

You really need to stop your double talk...

You made the dogmatic statement that leaving your house on the Sabbath was a violation of the Sabbath, which shows your lack of understanding or your willfull deceptive tactics to make the Sabbath a burden, rather than, a delight.

Jesus and His disciples were outside on the Sabbath thus making them a Sabbath breaker and a sinner, according you.

Not even.... you are evading the question..... I presented the texts and you are refusing to address them..... then accusing me of double talk.... is this how you engage in discussion?

 

[k4c]

Not even.... you are evading the question..... I presented the texts and you are refusing to address them..... then accusing me of double talk.... is this how you engage in discussion?

Read the context of the verse you tried to use as a standard for Sabbath keeping and get back to.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Where the rubber meets the road is a quick survey of SDA kids on whether the Sabbath seems like a burden or a delight.

A very relevant and important point.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

Read the context of the verse you tried to use as a standard for Sabbath keeping and get back to.

No need... you are the one who has started numerous threads on the law, and the sabbath, and this was an opportunity to clarify why putting to death sabbathbreakers, or staying at home is not applicable. However you have opted not to, which is your right...

The problem remains, the old covenant included all of those laws, statutes, and ceremonies. The ancient jew saw it all as one, not divided into ceremonial or moral laws which is convenient for adventists but disingenuous..... the old covenant was abolished... but you can't say that because saying so means admitting that "the sabbath" is part of the old covenant.... so thank you, your silence on this issue is admission enough...

 

[VictorC]

You made the dogmatic statement that leaving your house on the Sabbath was a violation of the Sabbath, which shows your lack of understanding or your willfull deceptive tactics to make the Sabbath a burden, rather than, a delight.

Discarding large portions of the law that defined how the sabbath was kept holy for the motive of calling the sabbath a "delight" isn't compliant with the law, doesn't keep the sabbath holy, and is the height of dogmatic arrogance.

 

[k4c]

Where the rubber meets the road is a quick survey of SDA kids on whether the Sabbath seems like a burden or a delight.

While you're there you might as well ask them if going to church on Sunday, praying, reading their Bibles are a delight as well.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

While you're there you might as well ask them if going to church on Sunday, praying, reading their Bibles are a delight as well.

I wonder if any of us believe that any of these activities represent the seal of God or that there will be a day when people will receive the mark of the beast if they don't do them. I rather doubt it.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

While you're there you might as well ask them if going to church on Sunday, praying, reading their Bibles are a delight as well.

reading the KJV, definitely a burden....

 

[Joe67]

Hebrews 3:7-19 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, and said, `They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, `They shall not enter My rest.' '' Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,'' lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.'' For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

k4c,

The key is in the first thought. "Today, if you will hear his Voice..."

When the Voice speaks to us, then we experience the same response as Moses and the 12 tribes experienced at Mt. Sinai.

Abram experienced this same agony when the Sovereign Lord spoke to him concerning Sarai being the mother of the promised heir.

When the Lord "speaks" to us, we experience the "sentence of death" within us, then afterward we hear the consolation of resurrection.

The "sentence of death" is the sabbath rest of Exodus 20. The promise of resurrection is the sabbath rest promised in Psalm 95 (which is fulfilled in Psalm 2 and 110) and witnessed again in Hebrews.

First we must experience sabbath rest as death through Moses' ministration through the stones that he hewed with a rod of iron and the point of a diamond, then we are prepared to be granted the sabbath rest as resurrection in Jesus' ministration from the new Jerusalem sanctuary which is above. First we must need believe Moses' writing, then we are given to hear Jesus' Voice through his blood.

Thus, we are given the victory over the beast, his mark, his number and his name through the song of Moses bringing death in the Lord and the song of the Lamb bringing resurrection from this death unto newness of service through the spirit.

Now we are fitted to deal with the man of sin.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

k4c,

The key is in the first thought. "Today, if you will hear his Voice..."

When the Voice speaks to us, then we experience the same response as Moses and the 12 tribes experienced at Mt. Sinai.

Abram experienced this same agony when the Sovereign Lord spoke to him concerning Sarai being the mother of the promised heir.

When the Lord "speaks" to us, we experience the "sentence of death" within us, then afterward we hear the consolation of resurrection.

The "sentence of death" is the sabbath rest of Exodus 20. The promise of resurrection is the sabbath rest promised in Psalm 95 (which is fulfilled in Psalm 2 and 110) and witnessed again in Hebrews.

First we must experience sabbath rest as death through Moses' ministration through the stones that he hewed with a rod of iron and the point of a diamond, then we are prepared to be granted the sabbath rest as resurrection in Jesus' ministration from the new Jerusalem sanctuary which is above. First we must need believe Moses' writing, then we are given to hear Jesus' Voice through his blood.

Thus, we are given the victory over the beast, his mark, his number and his name through the song of Moses bringing death in the Lord and the song of the Lamb bringing resurrection from this death unto newness of service through the spirit.

Now we are fitted to deal with the man of sin.

Joe

Have I correctly understood your post? Are you suggesting that the sabbath is the means whereby a man avoids the mark of the beast and secures His resurrection unto life?

BFA

 

[VictorC]

The "sentence of death" is the sabbath rest of Exodus 20.
...
First we must experience sabbath rest as death through Moses' ministration through the stones that he hewed with a rod of iron and the point of a diamond, then we are prepared to be granted the sabbath rest as resurrection in Jesus' ministration from the new Jerusalem sanctuary which is above.

These sentences you wrote are particularly troubling. First you affirm the sabbath is a death sentence, and then you conclude you're going to be given a sabbath rest (which I believe is in deference to Scripture, which never suggests this). Doesn't your description of the Gospel conclude you are given a death sentence?

I also find your literary license describing the tools Moses used unsupportable.

 

[Joe67]

Have I correctly understood your post? Are you suggesting that the sabbath is the means whereby a man avoids the mark of the beast and secures His resurrection unto life?

BFA

BFA,

Only the dead are raised unto newness of life, daily.

Then at the appearing of our Lord, those who are doers of the law will be justified in the spirit as was our Lord when he was raised from the dead.

1 Cor 15:3
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. KJV

Rev 12:1
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. KJV

Rev 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. KJV

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. KJV

Rom 1:4
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: KJV

1 Cor 15:44-46
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. KJV

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Then at the appearing of our Lord, those who are doers of the law will be justified in the spirit as was our Lord when he was raised from the dead.

Doesn't sound like "justification by faith" to me . . . . .

BFA

 

[Joe67]

Doesn't sound like "justification by faith" to me . . . . .

BFA

BFA,

Rom 2:12-13
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. KJV
.
.
Rom 2:16
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. KJV

Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, KJV

Joe

 

[VictorC]

BFA,

Rom 2:12-13
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. KJV
.
.
Rom 2:16
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. KJV

Joe

Romans 2 describes the condition of the Jew and Gentile prior to the Gospel, as a means to show the Gospel necessary to change our disposition of "guilty before God" concluded in Romans 3:19. By what do you find support for a thesis that there something other than justification by faith before God?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Rom 2:12-13
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

So am I "in the law" or am I "without law?"

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. KJV
.
.
Rom 2:16
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. KJV

Some additional verses:

17But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,

18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
21you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.
25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?

2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
"THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."
5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?
8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just.
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
​

BFA