Does Hebrews 3 and 4 do away with Sabbath?

[Adventtruth]

I think I am misunderstanding you here. IF you are saying the Jew who wears the law as his badge without gospel yes. If you are saying that the gentile in chapter 2 is heathen then no.

 

[VictorC]

Has nothing to do with my question or your earlier remarks. Besides...Paul speaks of a solution and the gospel in chapter 1, as well as a solution in chapter 2....a future judgment.



As I said...Paul has already presented the problem and solution in both chapters. Paul was speaking in contemporary terms and times...addressing the problems of the Jew who then boasted in Torah. Chapter 2:16 is clearly speaking of a future judgment of God.




Each chapter builds upon the previous chapter...that was Pauls style of writing.

Romans 2:26 states "in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.". That's not a solution - it's the problem, as it merely finishes a sentence telling how that the Gentiles will have their consciences either accusing them or excusing them according to the working of the law written in their heart.

But it didn't change the Gentiles disposition found in verse 12 showing that they're going to perish without the law, and it doesn't change the mandate conveyed by the first covenant that only the "doers of the law will be justified" in verse 13. That doesn't excuse anyone from the argument building up that all are rendered "guilty before God". The solution isn't presented until Paul makes sure they need it.

The pivot in tense for the solution comes in Romans 3:21: "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed...". Everything that was written in the present tense before now appears becomes past-tense.

 

[Adventtruth]

But never the less, I'll respond here as you and I do see this chapter a bit different.. (oh by the way Vic...on a side note...im sitting here responding to you taping my feet, listening to some new vinyl. 180g. Paul Desmond's latest reissue. "First place again" recorded 1959 and Connie Kay is just flat out fantastic on drums) You may find it a cduniverse.com if interested)

Romans 2:26 states "in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.". That's not a solution - it's the problem, as it merely finishes a sentence telling how that the Gentiles will have their consciences either accusing them or excusing them according to the working of the law written in their heart.

I think you meant Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Its a only a problem to those outside Pauls understanding of Gods law court. For those who are within the new covenant its a solution.

But it didn't change the Gentiles disposition found in verse 12 showing that they're going to perish without the law, and it doesn't change the mandate conveyed by the first covenant that only the "doers of the law will be justified" in verse 13. That doesn't excuse anyone from the argument building up that all are rendered "guilty before God". The solution isn't presented until Paul makes sure they need it.

Paul in chapter 2 is contrasting the Jewish nation with the gentile nation to show that all are under sin...and that true circumcision is of the heart inwardly and not merely, as they suppose...external.

Again...the Jew had the solution, though it was rejected. The reference to Christ and judgment = Gods law court...which all Jews understood but rejected "The Way" as a new covenant and new court. You seem to infer that it was the law keeping that saved? And yes the Jew misunderstood. It wasn't obedience to the Torah but trust in God that saved a Jew under the first covenant. Paul here in verse 12 and 13 makes a point that will be continued in later chapters (as he is accustom to doing)

The pivot in tense for the solution comes in Romans 3:21: "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed...". Everything that was written in the present tense before now appears becomes past-tense.

Not merely the "pivot" but the climax of the covenant. Paul's point up until verse 21 of Chapter 3 is to show those of the church, Jew and Gentile, that all Jews and Gentile all are alike.....are presently guilty before God in His law court metaphor...that no amount of law keeping will save you, only the righteous act of Christ and the declaration of not guilty through Christ by God.

 

[VictorC]

But never the less, I'll respond here as you and I do see this chapter a bit different.. (oh by the way Vic...on a side note...im sitting here responding to you taping my feet, listening to some new vinyl. 180g. Paul Desmond's latest reissue. "First place again" recorded 1959 and Connie Kay is just flat out fantastic on drums) You may find it a cduniverse.com if interested)

I just bought several used CDs from Amazon - mostly the Crusaders, Allison Brown, and Flim and the BB's. I'm enjoying the polycarbonate more than the vinyl lately...

I think you meant Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Its a only a problem to those outside Pauls understanding of Gods law court. For those who are within the new covenant its a solution.

Paul in chapter 2 is contrasting the Jewish nation with the gentile nation to show that all are under sin...and that true circumcision is of the heart inwardly and not merely, as they suppose...external.

Again...the Jew had the solution, though it was rejected. The reference to Christ and judgment = Gods law court...which all Jews understood but rejected "The Way" as a new covenant and new court. You seem to infer that it was the law keeping that saved? And yes the Jew misunderstood. It wasn't obedience to the Torah but trust in God that saved a Jew under the first covenant. Paul here in verse 12 and 13 makes a point that will be continued in later chapters (as he is accustom to doing)

Not merely the "pivot" but the climax of the covenant. Paul's point up until verse 21 of Chapter 3 is to show those of the church, Jew and Gentile, that all Jews and Gentile all are alike.....are presently guilty before God in His law court metaphor...that no amount of law keeping will save you, only the righteous act of Christ and the declaration of not guilty through Christ by God.

Very simply, you point out the theme of judgment in a legal setting that is presented in Romans 2. Contrast that with the promise made by Jesus in John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. The judgment illustrated is presented as the problem we need a solution to, as no one is going to survive a judgment based on their own merit.

John 3
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

 

[Adventtruth]

For some reason my reply to this posting yesterday did not post. So here it is again

I just bought several used CDs from Amazon - mostly the Crusaders, Allison Brown, and Flim and the BB's. I'm enjoying the polycarbonate more than the vinyl lately...

You cant go wong with the Jazz Crusaders.

Very simply, you point out the theme of judgment in a legal setting that is presented in Romans 2. Contrast that with the promise made by Jesus in John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. The judgment illustrated is presented as the problem we need a solution to, as no one is going to survive a judgment based on their own merit.

John 3
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

I agree unless you teach a form of OSAS. Initial justification is by nothing but faith and final justification is by nothing but faith. But the Holy Spirit works in us for His good pleasure. Those who have not the Holy Spirit are none of His. This seems a forgotton truth to our OSAS brethern.


AT

 

[VictorC]

I agree unless you teach a form of OSAS. Initial justification is by nothing but faith and final justification is by nothing but faith. But the Holy Spirit works in us for His good pleasure. Those who have not the Holy Spirit are none of His. This seems a forgotton truth to our OSAS brethern.

I don't know why you're bringing up OSAS, and I don't see any relation of OSAS to the topic. I think that you have a bone to pick with those perceiving the security of salvation that isn't via our performance.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.​

God's adoption -which gives us His Spirit of adoption- is the basis of our eternal security. As mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1...

20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.​

Signed, sealed, delivered, I'm His! That's security with a deposit of guarantee.

 

[Adventtruth]

I don't know why you're bringing up OSAS, and I don't see any relation of OSAS to the topic. I think that you have a bone to pick with those perceiving the security of salvation that isn't via our performance.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.​

God's adoption -which gives us His Spirit of adoption- is the basis of our eternal security. As mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1...

20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.​

Signed, sealed, delivered, I'm His! That's security with a deposit of guarantee.

I bring it up because it is easily forgotten that the Spirit is a very important part of the life of the justified christain. You and I are talking about justification and judgment. I am sick and tired of believers talking about salvation void of the Spirit as if they lead their own lives, but the minute some say anything about performance others are quickly to point out some form of legalism for salvation. You got a problem with mentioning performance?

Shoot....performance is very much part of the believers life and its interpreted as fruit which is brought on by the Spirit. (John 15)


This has nothing to do with Torah. Paul develops his initial ideas in Romans chapter 2 over in Romans chapter 8, but most formers wont go there, and most really don't understand what the heck is really going on in chapter 2...they never see the contrast of Jew and Gentile Paul has laid out in the chapter where the Jew boasted in the Torah and wore it as a badge, but still came under the curse of the Old Covenant because of a lack of humility thus they really trusted in them selves rather than God....while the gentile believer was lead of the Spirit through the conscience apart from Torah and Moses. This idea Paul develops in Chapter 8

Is Paul all of a sudden talking about the possibility of salvation by law keeping...even by heathens in chapter two? Certainly not! Most see the gentiles in 2 and automatically assume they are heathen keeping the law by nature, not knowing that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus teaches BELIEVERS His ways from within and we begin to walk in His paths all apart from Torah or Moses. That is why the bible teaches if one has not the Spirit then they are none of His. Trusting Christ brings on a new Spiritual life. Christ leads through the Spirit. No one is perfect, we still sin, but do we have the Spirit to constantly lead us...Salvation is from faith to faith. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed us from the law of sin and death.(Romans 8:2) Our sins are not held against us, (Romans 4:6-8) The justified christian will show signs of LIFE. The new covenant demands it. (Romans 8)(Gal 5:22-25)

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

I suspect you bring that into the conversation to prove you are OSAS? Because the context that surround it does not suggest so. No one can unloose the grip of God...but one can reject faith. The gift of faith is the only thing that is needed to gain Gods other gift...a declaration of not guilty, and the down payment of the Holy Spirit. But some where down the road the gifts of God can be rejected.

(Gal 5:1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

(Gal 5:2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

(Gal 5:3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

(Gal 5:4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[VictorC]

I am sick and tired of believers talking about salvation void of the Spirit

There is no such thing.

I do not understand your comments regarding Romans 2, as you have not addressed what I observed and you have not made any other point.

I suspect you bring that into the conversation to prove you are OSAS? Because the context that surround it does not suggest so. No one can unloose the grip of God...

Stop right there. You just declared yourself to be OSAS. If no one can unloose the grip of God, the one kept in that grip is included.

but one can reject faith. The gift of faith is the only thing that is needed to gain Gods other gift...a declaration of not guilty, and the down payment of the Holy Spirit. But some where down the road the gifts of God can be rejected.

You just admitted that faith is a gift, and is not from ourselves.

(Gal 5:1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

(Gal 5:2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

(Gal 5:3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

(Gal 5:4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

These verses address the return to the law mediated by Moses, by those who doubt His redemption. It was only 2 verses previous (Galatians 4:30) where this same author concludes that those remaining in the covenant from Mount Sinai have no claim to eternal life.

 

[Adventtruth]

There is no such thing.

Yeah..tell it to a 5 pointer like Zane Hodges and you got flat out war.

I do not understand your comments regarding Romans 2, as you have not addressed what I observed and you have not made any other point.

I know you dont....and I think you believe, but not sure, that the gentiles in chapter 2 are heathen? IF so then the context of the bible knows no such heathens.

Stop right there. You just declared yourself to be OSAS.

LoL . Stop putting on Vic.

If no one can unloose the grip of God, the one kept in that grip is included.

Then you don't believe in the gift of faith, but one kept against his own will as a prisoner.

You just admitted that faith is a gift, and is not from ourselves.

And....

These verses address the return to the law mediated by Moses, by those who doubt His redemption. It was only 2 verses previous (Galatians 4:30) where this same author concludes that those remaining in the covenant from Mount Sinai have no claim to eternal life.

And what might your point be?

AT

 

[VictorC]

LoL . Stop putting on Vic.

No.
I was serious, and continue to be that your whole hypothesis seems to be that God's Spirit doesn't assure us of our salvation.

Now you want to regard the Gentiles as unwashed heathen, refer to God's adoption as imprisonment, imply our imprisonment of God's Spirit in us, and turn someone named Zane Hodges into a 5-point buck. When you began this complaint of yours, you made no sense, and you're making less sense with each installment you add. Are you a proponent of some concept veiled in just enough obfuscation to conceal a racist leaning?

 

[Adventtruth]

No.
I was serious, and continue to be that your whole hypothesis seems to be that God's Spirit doesn't assure us of our salvation.

No I never said nor implied that....you just did. Gods assurance of salvation is just that...assurance, not hostage against our own desires. Do you understand the difference?

Now you want to regard the Gentiles as unwashed heathen,

Dont see how you come up with that either. I argued against that idea that many promote from reading Romans Chapter 2. To suggest they are heathen is to go against the context of the bible. Below is what I wote to you yesterday but you seem to not be able to undertand a simple posting so you acuse me of something I never said.

AT wrote:

Is Paul all of a sudden talking about the possibility of salvation by law keeping...even by heathens in chapter two? Certainly not! Most see the gentiles in 2 and automatically assume they are heathen keeping the law by nature, not knowing that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus teaches BELIEVERS His ways from within and we begin to walk in His paths all apart from Torah or Moses.

refer to God's adoption as imprisonment, imply our imprisonment of God's Spirit in us, and turn someone named Zane Hodges into a 5-point buck. When you began this complaint of yours, you made no sense, and you're making less sense with each installment you add. Are you a proponent of some concept veiled in just enough obfuscation to conceal a racist leaning?

Hey...just because you cant understand a simple posting dont put a bunch of nonsence in my mouth....I made no such claims, and never said anything about adoption.

Now to make it simple for for you....

1) Heathens have not the Indwelling of the Spirit.

2) God never forces us to do anything against our wills.

3)Zane Hodges is a hyper 5 Pointer who teaches sanctification is worthless and faith is not needed beyond a first experience with God .

4) And your remark about racist is out of left field.

I've never seen you with out understanding Vic...you are really out there on a cloud. Slow your roll.

ROFLMBO!


AT

 

[VictorC]

No I never said nor implied that....you just did. Gods assurance of salvation is just that...assurance, not hostage against our own desires. Do you understand the difference?

No, I don't perceive either a hostage situation nor a detriment against God's ownership of the property He purchased in His redemption of us. With His own presence in us, we come to know God according to His promise found in Hebrews 8:11 and the companion quote from Jeremiah 31. We come to share the same desire at that point, and I don't accept a premise of God desiring to expel Himself and give away His property.

Dont see how you come up with that either.

Then who is it that is arguing that the Gentiles have been relegated to abandonment if it isn't either one of us?

I argued against that idea that many promote from reading Romans Chapter 2. To suggest they are heathen is to go against the context of the bible.

"Many" is a subset that I am statistically likely to encounter, and I have never heard this argument apart from your thesis.

Below is what I wote to you yesterday but you seem to not be able to undertand a simple posting so you acuse me of something I never said.

AT wrote:

Is Paul all of a sudden talking about the possibility of salvation by law keeping...even by heathens in chapter two? Certainly not! Most see the gentiles in 2 and automatically assume they are heathen keeping the law by nature, not knowing that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus teaches BELIEVERS His ways from within and we begin to walk in His paths all apart from Torah or Moses.

Paul never mentions the Gentiles having any claim to salvation via keeping the law they never were placed under. I have no idea where you got this idea. Romans 2:15 is very clear when it says of the Gentiles that they "show the work of the law written in their hearts", and I have pointed this out to show that the law mediated by Moses was never a new covenant promise to be written into anyone's heart. The Gentiles had that law working in their consciences, with the result found in 2:12 "as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law" applied to them. They had no salvation at that time. I pointed out before that Romans 2 illustrates the problem that no one had any claim to eternal life prior to the Gospel, written to present the need for righteousness imputed apart from the law when the Gospel is introduced in 3:21. Ephesians 2:11-16 presents the same message more concisely than how it appears in Romans, and I recommend availing yourself of the simplified rendition found there.

Hey...just because you cant understand a simple posting dont put a bunch of nonsence in my mouth....I made no such claims, and never said anything about adoption.

You have been inserting arguments you admitted to be coming from an undefined "most" that I have never heard before as mine. What you have presented has been convoluted at best, and hence I don't understand why you're surprised that I don't understand where your contention comes from.

Now to make it simple for for you....

1) Heathens have not the Indwelling of the Spirit.

Agreed. I have never suggested that the "heathen" are saved, and Romans 8:9 makes that very clear that "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His". This remains a point that you introduced, and you never have explained why you have. Both your contention and Scripture's affirmation are completely unrelated to what is presented in Romans 2.

2) God never forces us to do anything against our wills.

You stand on dangerous ground declaring what God will or will not do in absolute terms, since Jesus reversed the relationship of cause and effect when He stated "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" found in John 6:44. I do not claim to conclude an absolute that will violate God's election.

3)Zane Hodges is a hyper 5 Pointer who teaches sanctification is worthless and faith is not needed beyond a first experience with God .

I couldn't care less if Zane Hodges got his 5 Points or his 33rd Degree from the Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan himself. If you have defined his position accurately (I don't know him, and don't care to), he erred as soon as he attributed sanctification apart from God's hand, and that is illustrated perhaps the best by Jude when he introduced his epistle: "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ...". "Sanctified" means "set apart", and it is God Who has set apart His adopted children. Once the ownership of property has been transferred via redemption, the seller loses any claim to that property's disposition.

 

[kenblaster5000]

SDA, the theological conundrum. A raveled up knot of beliefs no one dares to try to unravel. Those who are led by the Spirit, are the children of God. Forget the knot, follow the Lord, and He will figure out how to quickly untie the knot. Tie the knot with the Lord.

 

[Adventtruth]

No, I don't perceive either a hostage situation nor a detriment against God's ownership of the property He purchased in His redemption of us. With His own presence in us, we come to know God according to His promise found in Hebrews 8:11 and the companion quote from Jeremiah 31. We come to share the same desire at that point, and I don't accept a premise of God desiring to expel Himself and give away His property.

Then who is it that is arguing that the Gentiles have been relegated to abandonment if it isn't either one of us?

"Many" is a subset that I am statistically likely to encounter, and I have never heard this argument apart from your thesis.

Paul never mentions the Gentiles having any claim to salvation via keeping the law they never were placed under. I have no idea where you got this idea. Romans 2:15 is very clear when it says of the Gentiles that they "show the work of the law written in their hearts", and I have pointed this out to show that the law mediated by Moses was never a new covenant promise to be written into anyone's heart. The Gentiles had that law working in their consciences, with the result found in 2:12 "as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law" applied to them. They had no salvation at that time. I pointed out before that Romans 2 illustrates the problem that no one had any claim to eternal life prior to the Gospel, written to present the need for righteousness imputed apart from the law when the Gospel is introduced in 3:21. Ephesians 2:11-16 presents the same message more concisely than how it appears in Romans, and I recommend availing yourself of the simplified rendition found there.

You have been inserting arguments you admitted to be coming from an undefined "most" that I have never heard before as mine. What you have presented has been convoluted at best, and hence I don't understand why you're surprised that I don't understand where your contention comes from.

Agreed. I have never suggested that the "heathen" are saved, and Romans 8:9 makes that very clear that "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His". This remains a point that you introduced, and you never have explained why you have. Both your contention and Scripture's affirmation are completely unrelated to what is presented in Romans 2.

You stand on dangerous ground declaring what God will or will not do in absolute terms, since Jesus reversed the relationship of cause and effect when He stated "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" found in John 6:44. I do not claim to conclude an absolute that will violate God's election.

I couldn't care less if Zane Hodges got his 5 Points or his 33rd Degree from the Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan himself. If you have defined his position accurately (I don't know him, and don't care to), he erred as soon as he attributed sanctification apart from God's hand, and that is illustrated perhaps the best by Jude when he introduced his epistle: "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ...". "Sanctified" means "set apart", and it is God Who has set apart His adopted children. Once the ownership of property has been transferred via redemption, the seller loses any claim to that property's disposition.

Sorry Vic...been very busy as of late. I will be getting back to this shortly.

AT

 

[VictorC]

Sorry Vic...been very busy as of late. I will be getting back to this shortly.

Quite all right. I think the matter of contention is probably caused by some miscommunication I am not interested in persuing anymore.

 

[Adventtruth]

Quite all right. I think the matter of contention is probably caused by some miscommunication I am not interested in persuing anymore.

Ok...if you are not interested I'll leave it.

AT