Does guilt have any place in the life of a Christian?

[The Unforgettable Fire]

"Guilt has no place in the life of a believer. Jesus either did it all or he did nothing. You are not guilty of any sin if you are a believer. They are done away with. You don't have them anymore." - statement by the pastor at church this morning

What do you think?

 

[Yitzchak]

"Guilt has no place in the life of a believer. Jesus either did it all or he did nothing. You are not guilty of any sin if you are a believer. They are done away with. You don't have them anymore." - statement by the pastor at church this morning

What do you think?

I think that he is wrong. Truths in the bible have a context and usually have conditions that are stated. For example , this verse is often quoted.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus

But here is the rest of the verse, the condition.

who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The requirement to have the blessing is to be in the spirit and not in the flesh.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Take a look at this passage. Seems like it supports what your pastor said.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

But read the rest of what it says

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It seems to be that your pastor is being high minded as it describes in this passage.The context of this passage is about how natural Israel was cut of because of unbelief. the passage clearly states that the gentile believers who have been grafted in can also be cut off in the same way. Your pastor seems to think that is impossible.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

[Yitzchak]

What there is no place for is dysfunctional false guilt. We need to receive the grace of God and not rehearse over and over sins that we have repented of. But there is no place for willful disobedience and unbelief in the life of a Christian.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

I think that he is wrong. Truths in the bible have a context and usually have conditions that are stated. For example , this verse is often quoted.




But here is the rest of the verse, the condition.



The requirement to have the blessing is to be in the spirit and not in the flesh.





Take a look at this passage. Seems like it supports what your pastor said.




But read the rest of what it says






It seems to be that your pastor is being high minded as it describes in this passage.The context of this passage is about how natural Israel was cut of because of unbelief. the passage clearly states that the gentile believers who have been grafted in can also be cut off in the same way. Your pastor seems to think that is impossible.

So if I take that as you have presented it, then if a Christian willfully commits a sin after they are saved, then they are lost and cannot be saved.

 

[Faulty]

I don't know how as a believer matures, he doesn't become more aware of just exactly what it was he was saved from, becoming more self-aware of their fallen condition and more thankful for a wholly undeserved gift of reconciliation.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

What there is no place for is dysfunctional false guilt. We need to receive the grace of God and not rehearse over and over sins that we have repented of.
But there is no place for willful disobedience and unbelief in the life of a Christian.

So Christians should live a life of guilt then. Every time we do something wrong like think a bad thought, forget to be thankful, don't treat those around us in a perfect Christ like way.

 

[Yitzchak]

So Christians should live a life of guilt then. Every time we do something wrong like think a bad thought, forget to be thankful, don't treat those around us in a perfect Christ like way.

Your response implies that you are offended at this bible truth.

 

[Yitzchak]

So if I take that as you have presented it, then if a Christian willfully commits a sin after they are saved, then they are lost and cannot be saved.

What emerges is a need to repent. For some though , I suspect that they never really repented in the first place. They simply prayed a prayer and accepted the "christian sub culture". Once again , having an arrogant high minded attitude is a symptom of a deeper heart problem..

 

[Yitzchak]

So Christians should live a life of guilt then. Every time we do something wrong like think a bad thought, forget to be thankful, don't treat those around us in a perfect Christ like way.

If you are feeling condemnation it is because you have not met the condition of living in the Spirit.

 

[Yitzchak]

Here is the bottomline.


YouTube - Soften Your Heart-Keith Green

This Christianity that teaches that those who have hard stubborn and arrogant hearts that resist the Holy Spirit daily and yet they are sanctified and in good standing with God based upon some ritual prayer that they went through. It is nothing new, just a retooled version of what the Pharisees taught.
The Gospel is not a loophole so that you can avoid humbling your heart and repenting.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

It surprises me that I simply ask a question and the talons come out. I'm hesitant to say anything else because someone is bound to turn it into something ugly and negative about me personally.

 

[probinson]

It surprises me that I simply ask a question and the talons come out. I'm hesitant to say anything else because someone is bound to turn it into something ugly and negative about me personally.

Indeed.

The message of "repentance" in this thread goes something like this; "If you feel guilty and condemned, it's because you haven't met the condition of living in the Spirit." It's devoid of any kind of encouragement, or hope. Just a simple, you don't measure up, so repent. If you feel offended, it's because you are opposed to "Bible Truth".

More likely though, if you feel guilty and/or condemned, it's quite possibly because people are heaping condemnation upon you. If you feel offended, it's also quite possibly because people are being offensive. There's a big difference in the message being offensive and the messenger being offensive.

Unfortunately, this is really nothing more than a subtle attempt at manipulating people to respond in a predetermined manner, and has little to do with true repentance.

People use guilt all the time to try to get people to react. God, not so much. God OTOH, uses "conviction". If you've ever had the misfortune of being the target of someone's condemnation AND the pleasure of being at the other end of God's conviction and correction, you know that it is like night and day. God's conviction brings with it a Godly sorrow, but also an assurance of His unconditional Love.

The other big difference is that when people attempt to use guilt and condemnation to change people, it's seldom lasting. But when the goodness of God leads people to repentance, it's a life changing event.

Guilt doesn't bring repentance. The goodness of God brings repentance.

 

[pdudgeon]

the point here is that a new Christian repents of the sins that they are aware of. But as/if they grow in the Christian life and grow closer to Jesus, then they can see past sins that they had forgotton about, or learn to recognize sin when they see it in their life. And of those they should repent.

Indeed, our prayer should be "Search me, oh God, and see if there be any wicked way in me." not so that we might accumulate more and more guilt, but so that we can repent and be washed clean of that sin, and grow more and more like Jesus.

Jesus saw all of us in our uncleanness and yet He loved us enough to die that we might be cleansed of the stain of sin. He who was without sin Himself knew how much we needed to be restored into a right relationship with the Father. And He also knew that we in our sinful state could do nothing of ourselves in order to effect this restoration. We can never be "good enough" to stand in the presence of a Holy and Righteous God.

But it is in our recognizing what that stain of sin does to us and to others that we begin to understand the mind of Jesus and the love of the Father who sent Him. And we begin to comprehend how great our need truly is for forgiveness in every particle and aspect of our lives. Such that we are not willing to stop at glossing over what Jesus's sacrifice ment for us, and view sin as a surface stain that can easily be wiped clean on the outside. but we are indeed willing to humble ourselves, go deeper, and view our own past in order that we can truly comprehend how deep our need was for a Saviour who loved us enough to die for us.

Our Jewish brothers and sisters recognize this process in the cleaning of their homes for Passover. they are directed to sweep and shine a light into the darkest corners in order to eliminate the tiniest speck of leven from their houses. A little leven, a tiny forgotten sin, can leaven a whole loaf--or corrupt a whole life.

How does that happen? Just like the strands of a rope, sin weaves its way thru our lives. And we begin to justify our sinful behaviour, turning away from the mirror of God's holiness so that we might not see ourselves as we truly are, or the hideousness of our sin for what it truly is. And gradually the coils of that rope of sin's deception begins to bind us until we cannot find a way out on our own, but are locked fast in the deception.

We begin to believe this lie in such a way that we will even defend our right to continue living our lives in sin, turning away from those who shine the light of God's love on what we are doing. We call wrong as though it were right, we threaten and despise anyone who says otherwise to us, and even dare to call those who would show us Jesus and His love for us as hypocrits--no better than us, for they sin too!

We are quick to recognize and point out the sin in others, but we cannot see our own sin for what it is, until someone with love comes along, sees our need, and is willing to tell us of Jesus--the only One who can save us.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Indeed.

The message of "repentance" in this thread goes something like this; "If you feel guilty and condemned, it's because you haven't met the condition of living in the Spirit." It's devoid of any kind of encouragement, or hope. Just a simple, you don't measure up, so repent. If you feel offended, it's because you are opposed to "Bible Truth".

More likely though, if you feel guilty and/or condemned, it's quite possibly because people are heaping condemnation upon you. If you feel offended, it's also quite possibly because people are being offensive. There's a big difference in the message being offensive and the messenger being offensive.

Unfortunately, this is really nothing more than a subtle attempt at manipulating people to respond in a predetermined manner, and has little to do with true repentance.

People use guilt all the time to try to get people to react. God, not so much. God OTOH, uses "conviction". If you've ever had the misfortune of being the target of someone's condemnation AND the pleasure of being at the other end of God's conviction and correction, you know that it is like night and day. God's conviction brings with it a Godly sorrow, but also an assurance of His unconditional Love.

The other big difference is that when people attempt to use guilt and condemnation to change people, it's seldom lasting. But when the goodness of God leads people to repentance, it's a life changing event.

Guilt doesn't bring repentance. The goodness of God brings repentance.

Great post! Thanks Pete and Amen on the goodness of God!

 

[pdudgeon]

Indeed.

The message of "repentance" in this thread goes something like this; "If you feel guilty and condemned, it's because you haven't met the condition of living in the Spirit." It's devoid of any kind of encouragement, or hope. Just a simple, you don't measure up, so repent. If you feel offended, it's because you are opposed to "Bible Truth".

More likely though, if you feel guilty and/or condemned, it's quite possibly because people are heaping condemnation upon you. If you feel offended, it's also quite possibly because people are being offensive. There's a big difference in the message being offensive and the messenger being offensive.

Unfortunately, this is really nothing more than a subtle attempt at manipulating people to respond in a predetermined manner, and has little to do with true repentance.

People use guilt all the time to try to get people to react. God, not so much. God OTOH, uses "conviction". If you've ever had the misfortune of being the target of someone's condemnation AND the pleasure of being at the other end of God's conviction and correction, you know that it is like night and day. God's conviction brings with it a Godly sorrow, but also an assurance of His unconditional Love.

The other big difference is that when people attempt to use guilt and condemnation to change people, it's seldom lasting. But when the goodness of God leads people to repentance, it's a life changing event.

Guilt doesn't bring repentance. The goodness of God brings repentance.

sorry, but i disagree.

there are far too many Christians today who latch on to the goodness of God and how He loves us, but they never stop to equate that love with repentence. How else can we explain all the rainbow signs with phrases like "God loves me just as I am".

God does love us, but He loves us far too much to let us stay 'just as we are'.

Guilt doesn't 'bring' repentence, but it plays a necessary part in bringing us to the realization that to keep on traveling down the same sinful path will not bring us to Heaven, and into a restored relationship with God.

Guilt comes ONLY with a realization that what we thought was right was actually wrong. On the other hand, if we feel that we are the ones who are in the right, that is when resentment rears it's head, and all further conversation on the subject is useless.

(as a side note, let me relate a brief incident that happened between my father and me when i was 4 years old. I loved to pretend i was "reading" the comics. One day i asked my father to read them to me, so he started out with the comic strip "Little Orphin Annie".....except i corrected him, and told him that the strip had a different title. keeping in mind that he was the one who could read and i of course could not, nothing he said then could convice me that he was right; so eventually he stoppd trying, and that was the end of reading the comics to me. In later years when i could read, i found out that he was indeed right.)

But when we understand what right is, and where we have missed the mark, that combined realization is what leads us to guilt, which is another word for conviction.

But if we stop at guilt/conviction, we have come to a dead end, or the bottom of the hole---a place from which the only way out is up. And it's at that point that the goodness of God is effective in leading a sinner out of sin.

(and yes, years later i did appologize to my father for the comic strip incident. But it's also something that i haven't forgotten, because the lesson was so well-learned.)

If the goodness of God is applied before the person understands their position in sin in relation to God's holiness, then they have no reason to come under conviction, because in their eyes they are not guilty of anything.

 

[probinson]

sorry, but i disagree.

Well OK, but just know that if you disagree that the goodness of God leads men to repentance, it's not me you're disagreeing with;

Romans 2:4 (AMP)
Or are you [so blind as to] trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent (to change your mind and inner man to accept God's will)?
​

 

[Yitzchak]

Well OK, but just know that if you disagree that the goodness of God leads men to repentance, it's not me you're disagreeing with;

Romans 2:4 (AMP)
Or are you [so blind as to] trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent (to change your mind and inner man to accept God's will)?
​

Actually , the passage you quoted is quite harsh. It is a warning about judgement. The goodness of God in the passage that you quoted is that he withholds his judgement in order to give us a chance to repent. The message of the passage is repentance. Not only that the passage comes accross as a huge guilt trip from God.

Rom 2:1 Some of you accuse others of doing wrong. But there is no excuse for what you do. When you judge others, you condemn yourselves, because you are guilty of doing the very same things.
Rom 2:2 We know that God is right to judge everyone who behaves in this way.
Rom 2:3 Do you really think God won't punish you, when you behave exactly like the people you accuse?
Rom 2:4 You surely don't think much of God's wonderful goodness or of his patience and willingness to put up with you. Don't you know that the reason God is good to you is because he wants you to turn to him?
Rom 2:5 But you are stubborn and refuse to turn to God. So you are making things even worse for yourselves on that day when he will show how angry he is and will judge the world with fairness.
Rom 2:6 God will reward each of us for what we have done.
Rom 2:7 He will give eternal life to everyone who has patiently done what is good in the hope of receiving glory, honor, and life that lasts forever.
Rom 2:8 But he will show how angry and furious he can be with every selfish person who rejects the truth and wants to do evil.
Rom 2:9 All who are wicked will be punished with trouble and suffering. It doesn't matter if they are Jews or Gentiles.

It actually comes right out and says that you won't be able to hide behind your religion. God is just and will judge based on what people do and don't do. If you're doing wrong , you will be sorry. Quite the cosmic guilt trip and scare tactic here.

 

[probinson]

Actually , the passage you quoted is quite harsh. It is a warning about judgement. The goodness of God in the passage that you quoted is that he withholds his judgement in order to give us a chance to repent. The message of the passage is repentance. Not only that the passage comes accross as a huge guilt trip from God.

It actually comes right out and says that you won't be able to hide behind your religion. God is just and will judge based on what people do and don't do. If you're doing wrong , you will be sorry. Quite the cosmic guilt trip and scare tactic here.

It is a very interesting passage of scripture indeed. Let's examine it further;

Romans 2:1 (NIV)
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
​

The first thing we should note is who is being addressed. That would be, "you who pass judgment on someone else".

Romans 2:2-4 (NIV)
Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
​

Still speaking to "you who pass judgment on someone else", it goes on to say that when one does that, it is actually quite possible that they have contempt for the riches of God's kindness, forbearance and patience. IOW, these are people that seem to think that God is being a bit too patient with people they think should get their act together.

The other scenario laid out for us is that these people also seem to think by pointing out other people's flaws, it justifies them. It says that God's judgement is based on Truth. While not directly stated, that also implies that a "mere human being['s]' judgment is not based on Truth.

This is why I said in another thread that I believe Christians should worry more about themselves, i.e. removing the plank from their own eye, rather than trying to correct everyone else i.e. removing the splinters from other people's eyes.

Romans 2:5-9 (NIV)
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
​

This isn't a guilt trip at all. It's a sowing and reaping, cause and effect statement of Truth.

If I tell you, "If you touch that stove, you'll get burnt", I'm not guilting you into not touching the stove. I'm simply telling you what will result if you touch the stove. Likewise here. Unrepentant hearts, self-seekers and those who reject Truth and follow evil will reap what they've sown.

If anything, this is a warning and pleading to allow God's goodness to draw you to repentance. It's not a guilt trip to manipulate you into repenting.

 

[WindBreath]

"Guilt has no place in the life of a believer. Jesus either did it all or he did nothing. You are not guilty of any sin if you are a believer. They are done away with. You don't have them anymore." - statement by the pastor at church this morning

What do you think?

I think he's wrong. You commit a sin, you are guilty for it, and you must repent for it...

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

I think he's wrong. You commit a sin, you are guilty for it, and you must repent for it...

So what you are saying is that Jesus' blood only covers the sins we have repented of?

If this is true what if I steal a pencil, lose my temper, get in a fight with my wife, gossip about someone, fail to seek peace in a situation, fail to act lovingly toward some, know to do right in some various situation and I fail to do so and before I "repent" of it I get hit by a car and die. I burn forever in the lake of fire eternally separated from God?

Is what Christ accomplished on the cross really at the mercy of my imperfect humanity and good or bad decisions like that? Is that the hope of our salvation? That Jesus saves those who act good enough (repent enough) after believing in Him?

If you are going to say little sins God overlooks and big sins He doesn't then who decides what is a big sin or a little sin? Doesn't the Scripture tell us that cursed is everyone who doesn't keep all the law? Whether the transgression is great or small it is still a transgression. Is this the freedom we have been given? Saved from the condemnation of the law so we could be placed back under it?

Should we turn around and do right when we do wrong? Of course we should. But you didn't say should, you said "must."

If eternal life comes by anything more than simple trusting faith in what Jesus accomplished for us then Jesus is a liar and I certainly do not believe Jesus to be a liar. (See John 3:16)