Does 'Goddidit' constitute an explanation?

[BananaSlug]

If you ask me why the sky is blue and I say "God did it", does that really answer your question? If "God did it" is a viable explanation, why even bother going to the doctor? Why bother studying any science? Much of the technology we have today would not exist if we used "God did it" as an answer for every question about the way things work.

 

[3sigma]

That's because for you empirical evidence is the only kind sound objective evidence you can get. You're the one saying there are other types of sound objective evidence which are non-empirical but you can't think of any! Could that be because you don't actually believe it? Anyway I'll sign off and save ourselves some time cos the original point I was trying to make is the point I made in a similar post I made a while ago and the person I was addressing took exception to it a bit like you're doing. Rather helpfully though another poster (an agnostic) summed it up nicely. have fun

No, empirical evidence is the only evidence I’ve seen so far. I didn’t say there are other types of evidence; I said there may be other types of evidence. Why do you misrepresent what others write? However, despite my asking you repeatedly for examples of non-empirical, sound, objective evidence verifying the existence of something, you have failed to produce any. You’ve evaded my every request for that and now it seems you are going to evade all the other questions I asked you. Why do religious believers like you behave so evasively? Here are the questions you evaded in my last post alone.

You claimed I hold beliefs without any evidence and I asked you to give me some examples. Well, do you actually know of any beliefs I hold without any evidence or were you lying when you said that?

You claimed religious believers and I are alike in our beliefs. I told you I would relinquish a belief for which there is zero sound, objective evidence and asked whether you would do the same. Well, would you relinquish a belief for which there is zero sound, objective evidence or would you continue to cling to it because it is comforting and your emotions override your reason?

I told you I think God, Satan, angels, heaven, hell and eternal life are all make-believe. Can you show me I am wrong not to believe they exist by presenting some sound, objective evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt they do exist?

Are you eager or willing to accept unsound, subjective evidence that any of those things are real?

Except understanding that 'Goddidit' doesn't stop you from understanding how 'Goddidit' it happened. Therefore what you said all the way back on page 4 is wrong.

Really? Tell me, have you or any other religious believer ever investigated how your God supposedly answers prayers? Has any religious believer ever investigated how your God supposedly created the universe, the Sun, the Earth, life and humans? By investigating, I don’t mean accepting the tales in an ancient storybook that reinforce your comforting religious beliefs; I mean actually investigating. If so, what were the results of those investigations? Tell us what mechanisms your God supposedly used to create the universe, the Sun, the Earth, life and humans. What process does your God use to supposedly answer prayers? How does an entity entirely outside the universe apparently affect the universe in observable ways while its actions remain unobservable?

 

[SkyWriting]

Tell me, have you or any other religious believer ever investigated how your God supposedly answers prayers?

I have documented the process. And it's repeatable. So it's good enough for me.
And it's in the Bible, so all that missing is for people to apply it and duplicate
my results. As far as I can tell, many have done just that. That would make it entirely Scientific.
Oh yah, it's been peer reviewed. For 1000's of years. More than Science itself.

How does an entity entirely outside the universe apparently affect the universe in observable ways while its actions remain unobservable?

There are 10 -20 models that would open up your mind to such possibilities in this book: Introducing Relativity

 

[3sigma]

I have documented the process. And it's repeatable. So it's good enough for me.

That isn’t what I asked. I didn’t ask whether you think it answers prayers or how often you think it answers prayers. I asked have you ever investigated how your God supposedly answers prayers? What process does it use? What is the underlying mechanism involved?

For example, I can type posts and see them appear on this forum. It is repeatable. However, that doesn’t tell me how it happens. Just seeing them appear doesn’t reveal the underlying process. It doesn’t reveal the processing going on inside my computer, the routers across the Internet or the web server. It doesn’t reveal the underlying communications protocols used, the routing decisions made, the paths taken or any of the addresses involved. To discover those things, I would need to investigate further.

You think your God has answered your prayers, but have you or any other religious believer ever investigated how your "God did it"? Have you ever investigated any further than simply assuming that because something you desire sometimes occurs when you pray that your prayer must have been answered? Are you willing or able to investigate any further to explain in detail the process involved?

 

[SkyWriting]

That isn’t what I asked. I didn’t ask whether you think it answers prayers or how often you think it answers prayers. I asked have you ever investigated how your God supposedly answers prayers? What process does it use? What is the underlying mechanism involved?

Yes. I know exactly how it's all done. Check it out for yourself.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Yes. I know exactly how it's all done. Check it out for yourself.

Let me guess, he "opens doors?"

 

[SithDoughnut]

Yes. I know exactly how it's all done. Check it out for yourself.

Could you do us a favour and tell us? I feel that God isn't going to pay much attention to me. I mean like the actual process, not the metaphorical stuff which is just a way of saying 'I'm taking a wild guess here'. What mechanisms does he use to answer prayers?

 

[3sigma]

Yes. I know exactly how it's all done. Check it out for yourself.

Well then please give us the explanation. Explain in detail exactly how your God supposedly answers prayers. Describe the underlying processes and mechanisms used. I asked you to do that, but you evaded those requests. Are you yet another religious believer who constantly behaves evasively? Please answer the questions and provide some sound, objective evidence to support your conclusions.

 

[sandwiches]

Could you do us a favour and tell us? I feel that God isn't going to pay much attention to me. I mean like the actual process, not the metaphorical stuff which is just a way of saying 'I'm taking a wild guess here'. What mechanisms does he use to answer prayers?

Be prepared for something along the lines of "You wouldn't understand without the holy spirit in you" or "I won't do your work for you." In other words, a cop out.

 

[Michael]

Does 'Goddidit' constitute an explanation? It doesn't matter if it's an untestable one, but does it count as an explanation?

In that respect, is it a scientific hypothesis, albeit a woefully poor one?

It seems infinitely more plausible that Guthflation, er, "Inflation, dark energy and magic matter did it". I'll take "God did it with electricity" any day of the week in terms of a "scientific" explanation.

 

[SkyWriting]

Well then please give us the explanation. Explain in detail exactly how your God supposedly answers prayers. Describe the underlying processes and mechanisms used. I asked you to do that, but you evaded those requests. Are you yet another religious believer who constantly behaves evasively? Please answer the questions and provide some sound, objective evidence to support your conclusions.

Sorry. I altered the question to fit the data I was prepared to give.

And you altered the Data you've already received to fit the conclusion that you are planning on having.

So we are both disqualified from a mutual examination of the data. I expected this, and recommend the only valid solution for cases such as this. Select your own data sources and draw your own conclusions. That's what I had to do.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Be prepared for something along the lines of "You wouldn't understand without the holy spirit in you" or "I won't do your work for you." In other words, a cop out.

Oh I know there'll be one - in fact, I think there is one a few posts above me. I was hoping for it so I could lead it into a question I have about Christianity, the question being: Do you have no curiosity at all?

When I believe God exists, I wanted to know all about him. I wanted to know who he was, how he did what he did, why he did it all in the first place. What I found was that God apparently created a curious, imaginative and investigative species and then told them to live with what they know and not look for more. The Bible barely explains anything, it's merely an account, yet for some reason (and this applies to many religions, not just Christianity) Christians appear to be happy with a tiny percentage of the knowledge that is out there - even in their worldview. I've never seen a Christian give an answer to a question that actually explains anything - surely someone must be wondering what exactly is going on?

This is the issue I have with 'Goddidit'. It perpetuates the unfounded belief (even in the Bible) that curiosity is a bad thing and should be avoided. It's not exactly like Christians have no capability of finding out more - I see many claims that God is beyond the reach of science and experimentation, yet you claim to have a direct line to him - why not ask him? Why not actually look further beyond the reaches of a 2000 year old history (and I use that in the loosest term possible) book and try to find something new? There is nothing, nothing at all in Christianity that says that trying to understand God is a bad thing, yet no one seems to try.

Bit of a waste of 2000 years of Christianity, if you ask me. You've got an all knowing omnipotent God and yet it seems none of you have asked him any worthwhile questions.

Of course, if I'm wrong, and you have investigated further than the stories of the Bible, please tell me what you have found. No one else has told me anything, including people who see it as their job. Explain to me how and why God does what he does, or who he actually is (What is he made out of? How does he exist? In a world where everything has a purpose -i.e. the general Christian worldview - what is God's?).

 

[AV1611VET]

The Bible barely explains anything, it's merely an account, yet for some reason (and this applies to many religions, not just Christianity) Christians appear to be happy with a tiny percentage of the knowledge that is out there - even in their worldview.

As someone once said: I love flowers, but I hate botany.

 

[SithDoughnut]

As someone once said: I love flowers, but I hate botany.

There are a lot of botanists out there though. Surely there must be some curious Christians out there - I was one after all.

 

[Meshach]

The Little Prayer That Could

When The Prayer of Jabes was first published in the spring of 2000, if you had told me that this little ninety-three-page book would become "the fastest-selling book of all time"--as Publishers Weekly dubbed it in 2002- I wouldn't have believed it. But the response has been, and continues to be, incredible. Even now, I employ a full-time assistant to answer e-mails and letters from people writing to tell me of their Jabes experience! And the stories continue to flood in from those who have tasted the miracle of answered prayer.
Wherever I go, wherever I teach, the question is always the same. "How can you explain the sales of your book?" After a couple years, I felt that the answer had become apparent; after all, nearly everywhere I went, someone rushed up to share their own story: "you should hear what God did when I prayed the prayer of Jabes..."



Above is an excerpt from the opening paragraphs of the book "Beyond Jabes". A continuation or follow up of Bruce Wilkinson's first book "The Prayer of Jabes" . How to pray, what to pray for and just about anything you need to know about prayer God answers in His Word. Far to many prayers specifically answered for Christians to be put off as mere coincidences. IMPOSSIBLE. All I can say is if you dont have a relationship with the Creator you are missing out, and if at one time you had a relationship with the Creator and dont now, you missed the boat somewhere along the way. With all I have personally experienced with God I believe it would be IMPOSSIBLE for me to turn away and doubt His existance.

Deuteronomy 4:29

But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

 

[SkyWriting]

Could you do us a favour and tell us? I feel that God isn't going to pay much attention to me. I mean like the actual process, not the metaphorical stuff which is just a way of saying 'I'm taking a wild guess here'. What mechanisms does he use to answer prayers?

For one, yes, He will answer you. He always does.

There are qualifiers, but you will have to learn what they are the hard way.
The easy way is already written out for you. Just read the instruction book again.

HOW does God accomplish miracles. I've experienced Him using two methods that often work together.

#1. He knows what you are going to need. So He makes preparations to provide you with what you need "ahead of time". So when you reach that particular point in time, your needs are met "seemingly instantly".

I first read about this in a true story of a person who felt he was being sent on a journey by the Holy Spirit. When he got to a river with no way to cross, he just prayed for God to do "Whatever". A boat appeared on the opposite side of the river and came across. The boat owner explained as they were crossing that he had felt that someone needed his boat so he made the hour trip down to the river.

#2. God sets the timing and alters a persons prayers to match His plans.
He doesn't do this for any reason other than to show that He is real.

Those are two of the processes I've experience God using in my life.
I know of people's bones that have been healed by God and the x-rays show no breaks. But you know what? I don't believe it. It's virtually impossible for me to believe it because I wasn't there.

That's why I KNOW your intensive questioning about miracles won't work for you. That's WHY I evade the answers you seek. I believe God could heal bones, but I don't believe the story from an ex-girlfriend, because I didn't experience the situation myself.

 

[max1120]

It would not constitute an explanation for most inteligent and educated persons. It is clearly an "opinion" put forth by the person stating such as his belief tha "god did it". Thus it is simply that persons opinion and nothing more.

 

[SithDoughnut]

For one, yes, He will answer you. He always does.

There are qualifiers, but you will have to learn what they are the hard way.
The easy way is already written out for you. Just read the instruction book again.

I spent years reading the instruction book, but that was all it was - an instruction book.

A book telling me how to drive a car doesn't tell me how it works, likewise, a book telling me how to follow God doesn't tell me how he works.

HOW does God accomplish miracles. I've experienced Him using two methods that often work together.

#1. He knows what you are going to need. So He makes preparations to provide you with what you need "ahead of time". So when you reach that particular point in time, your needs are met "seemingly instantly".

I first read about this in a true story of a person who felt he was being sent on a journey by the Holy Spirit. When he got to a river with no way to cross, he just prayed for God to do "Whatever". A boat appeared on the opposite side of the river and came across. The boat owner explained as they were crossing that he had felt that someone needed his boat so he made the hour trip down to the river.

But how did he do it? How did he tell the boat owner to go and make the detour? How does this fit in to the concept of free will - is God actually limited, or does he just choose to be? How limited is he? If he isn't, then how does that fit in with the problem of evil? Is he benevolent, or does he choose to be? Is he forced to be a single type of God or is he capable of deciding to not be benevolent whenever he chooses? If he can change it, how does that affect him being 'all-loving'.

I'm not expecting you to answer those, I'm assuming you wouldn't anyway, at least not with a clear answer. I'm just pointing out how little information is out there.

#2. God sets the timing and alters a persons prayers to match His plans.
He doesn't do this for any reason other than to show that He is real.

Those are two of the processes I've experience God using in my life.
I know of people's bones that have been healed by God and the x-rays show no breaks. But you know what? I don't believe it. It's virtually impossible for me to believe it because I wasn't there.

That's why I KNOW your intensive questioning about miracles won't work for you. That's WHY I evade the answers you seek. I believe God could heal bones, but I don't believe the story from an ex-girlfriend, because I didn't experience the situation myself.

I'm not looking for evidence. I'm working on the assumption that God exists and the Bible is true. I'm not looking for a debate; I just want to know what your answer is.

How does God do it? Can't he just let us know he is real?

 

[SithDoughnut]

It would not constitute an explanation for most inteligent and educated persons. It is clearly an "opinion" put forth by the person stating such as his belief tha "god did it". Thus it is simply that persons opinion and nothing more.

That is all belief is, and therefore that is the most I can expect. Faith by definition is not founded in evidence.

 

[SkyWriting]

When I [believed God existed,] I wanted to know all about him. I wanted to know who he was, how he did what he did, why he did it all in the first place. What I found was that God apparently created a curious, imaginative and investigative species and then told them to live with what they know and not look for more.

That is so odd. It's as if all the data points to a different universe than ours. Here on earth Christians do stuff to investigate and explore. Maybe you just hang with the wrong crowd?