Does God want "all men" to be saved?

[5thKingdom]

No but the OT Gospel is the NT Gospel. The Old Testament is New Testament concealed, the NT is the OT revealed. When Paul preached the Gospel in the NT times, he used the OT scripture 1 Cor 15:3-4

Yes, of course I have heard that very cute saying about the
OT being the NT concealed and the NT being the OT revealed.
Very cute... the only problem is that it's just a cute saying
and not a Biblical teaching.


You can believe whatever you want... it does not make it true.
But you can prove me wrong... just use SCRIPTURE instead of
your "feelings". Can you show me ONE VERSE in the Bible that
teaches the OT Gospel was the SAME as the NT Gospel?


Of course you cannot because (a) you would have already done
so, if you could, instead of arguing your "feelings" as if they had
some authority and (b) you even acknowledge the NT Gospel
"reveals" what was not known in the OT Gospel... so you have
already contradicted yourself.


Regardless.
I CAN show you SCRIPTURE that contradicts your "feelings".
So you have been refuted by the BIBLE, not my opinions.


Mat 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is
instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man
that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure
things new [New Testament truths] and old [Old Testament Truths].


Here is another passage that relates:


Mat 9:17
Neither do men put new wine [NT doctrines] into old bottles
[OT Gospel]: else the bottles [Gospels] break, and the wine
[doctrines] runneth out, [they do not mix, they are different]
and the bottles [Gospels] perish: but they put new wine
[NT doctrines] into new bottles [NT Gospel], and both
[the OT Gospel and NT Gospel] are preserved.


Listen, while I realize this will be WAY over your head, but it's
Bible truth... so I will show you HOW wrong you are. Not only
was the New Testament Gospel different than the OT Gospel...
but the Gospel of the Great Tribulation is DIFFERENT than the
Gospel of the church age.


Daniel 12:8-10 PROMISES the Last Saints (Great Tribulation Saints)
"shall understand" Biblical mysteries that remained "closed-up"
and "sealed" from all previous Saints until the "time of the end"...
or the "Season and Time" of Daniel 7:11-12.


Matthew 24:15 and 33 PROMISES the Last Saints ("wise virgins")
"shall see ALL of these things", fulfillment of ALL Great Tribulation
prophecies (or "signs") when they see the great "falling away" and
the "Man of Sin" who is "revealed" (to them and ONLY them) and then destroyed by the Brightness of the Lord's Return.... and all of
this occurs AFTER the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" [2Thes2:6-9] when the church age ends.


So... not only is the New Testament Gospel DIFFERENT than the
Gospel preached in the Church Age, BEFORE the "testimony" of
the church is "finished" [Rev 11:7] and BEFORE the Last Saint
has been "sealed" and the Great Tribulation can begin[Rev 7:1-3]
and BEFORE Satan is "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit
[Rev 9:1-2] to RULE over the Revelation Saints...


But these Last Saints ["wise virgins"] PREACH the Biblical mysteries
that remained "sealed" (including the NAME of the "Little Horn" or
"False Prophet" or Antichrist) during the time period known as the
"time of the end" or "Season and Time"... the time in Rev 11:14
or the time BETWEEN Rev 19:20 and 20:10.


Bottom Line:
The Gospel during the Pre-Flood "Kingdom" was DIFFERENT
than the Gospel in the Jewish "Kingdom" and DIFFERENT than
the Gospel during the Christian "Kingdom" and DIFFERENT than
the Gospel during the Great Tribulation "Kingdom" [Mat 25:1-13]


As I said, this is all WAY over your head and Daniel 12:8-10
PROMISES only the Last Saints "shall understand". So I am
not looking for confirmation from you... I am just telling you what
the BIBLE SAYS (the Gospel of EACH Kingdom is different)...
and this is confirmed by history/reality.


Finally, neither the OT Gospel or NT Gospel "revealed" the people
called the ten "kings/horns" who were RULED by the "Little Horn"
[Dan 7:24-25] are the same people called the ten "kings/horns"
who are RULED by the Revelation Beast [Rev 17:12-13, 17] and
the same people called the "ten virgins" who are RULED by the
Antichrist [Mat 25:1-13].


So, not only was the Jewish Gospel different than the
Christian Gospel, but the Great Tribulation Gospel was also
unique... as was the Gospel before the Flood. You make a huge
mistake thinking of God's Salvation Plan as ONLY being the
Jewish and Christian Kingdoms because there can be
no debate there was a Pre-Flood Kingdom and
a Great Tribulation Kingdom.


Just a little perspective for you.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

God doesnt never change Mal 3:6

But there can be no doubt or debate that God's PROGRAM
of Salvation changes. God's program during the Pre-Flood
Kingdom was DIFFERENT than God's program during the
Jewish Kingdom and DIFFERENT than God's Program in
the Christian Kingdom and DIFFERENT than God's
Program during the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


You need to EXPAND your thinking...
the history of mankind is just a REFLECTION of God's
salvation plan over four (4) temporal Kingdoms and EACH was
unique. That is just a Biblical and historical fact... whether you can
accept it or not.


Jim

 

[Clare73]

Hi,
Romans 5:18 "(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; (b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

There are at least 2 truths found in this verse:
(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.This verse is a like an if-then type statement, that being IF Rom 5:18(a) is true, THEN Rom 5:18(b) is equally true.

Some will take 18(a) and try to make it teach the false notion of original sin, that is, they claim 18(a) teaches that ALL men are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners by the one offence of Adam. Well if that is true, then 18(b) must teach that same ALL men will UNCONDITIONALLY be justified by the righteousnesss of Christ and that creates Universalism. Obviously Paul is NOT teaching either original sin or universalism in Romans 5:18. People are reading the UNCONDITIONAL idea into the verse.

That's why I pointed out to you Paul's frequent usage of "all" to mean two things, both of which he uses in Ro 5:18.
a) all without exception (18a)
b) all without distinction (18b).

It's a parallel of imputation, not of application.

There are two applications of the word "all"--a) and b) above--to the one meaning of imputation
in Ro 5:18.

It is Ro 5:12-14 that explains the imputation of Adam's sin to all men.

I see that Paul is showing the ALL MEN, EACH & EVERY PERSON, ALL MANKIND is going to be on the receiveing end of one of two things, condemnation or justification. Being saved or lost are the only two options man has, so ALL MEN will fall into one or the other. Out of ALL MEN, those that CONDITIONALLY choose to have have faith will be the ones justified (Romans 5:1). Those that CONDITIONALLY choose to disobey and choose to sin (Romans 5:12) and remain impenitently in that sin will be the one condemned. THerefore we have all men falling into either the saved or lost categories.

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

In this verse Paul uses "many" as contrasted to using "all men" in verse 18.

Again, some make the wrong ASSUMPTION "many" are made sinners UNCONDITIONALLY. IF true then 19(b) has that same "many" UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous. But again, this is NOT what Paul is saying here.

I see the reason Paul said "MANY made sinners" because all are not sinners, infants are not sinners, those with severe mental disabilities are not sinners nor was Christ a sinner. So "the many" here refers to those that reach an age of accountability (Romans 7:8-9).

And "MANY be made righteous" for ALL (each & everyone) will not be saved, no Universalism.

Again, Paul in this verse does not specifically say HOW many are made sinners and many are nade righteous. So it is ASSUMPTION that many inherit Adam's sin ans it would to be many inherit righteousness. For personal sin or person righteousness cannot be transferred/imputed from one person to another.

 

[BobRyan]

And you think that proves something? Why?
Do you think there was NOT a Jewish Gospel?
What was the OT?

.

Gal 1:6-9 only ONE Gospel
Gal 3:8 The Gospel was preached to Abraham
Heb 4:2 "we have had the Gospel preached to us just as they also"
1 Cor 10 "They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ"
1 Pet 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

 

[BobRyan]

But there can be no doubt or debate that God's PROGRAM of Salvation changes.

No such thing in the Bible as "the PROGRAM of salvation" ...

There IS the "one Gospel" however - Gal 1:6-9

 

[BobRyan]

Well, then. . .that thorough analysis leaves only one conclusion:

of the several senses in which "all" is used by Paul, this one is Gentile as well as Jew; i.e.
"all without distinction," rather than "all without exception."

"1 Gentile + 1 Jew" would satisfy that downsize of the term. In that case it would be over-marketecture to claim that was "all the world

 

[Clare73]

"1 Gentile + 1 Jew" would satisfy that downsize of the term. In that case it would be over-marketecture to claim that was "all the world

But that case is an unproven hypothetical, in which neither the Word of God nor I deal.

 

[5thKingdom]

Gal 1:6-9 only ONE Gospel

Of course you are right TECHNICALLY.
But there is no question the Gospel was "revealed" to the saints
in a progressive manner. Saints living before the Flood did not
know the same Truths as Saints living in the Jewish "Kingdom".
And Saints living in the Christian "Kingdom" know MORE of the
Gospel that either the Pre-Flood Saints or the Jewish Saints.


I hope that you can understand and agree with that HISTORICAL
reality.


Moreover, the Saints living AFTER the church age is finished,
the Saints ["wise virgins"] living in the Great Tribulation Kingdom
and/or the Revelation Beast know MORE of the Gospel than the
Pre-Flood Saints AND the Jewish Saints AND the Christian Saints.


And this is shown in the Bible in Daniel 12:8-10
And Matthew 24:15, 33. And Revelation 10:7-11.

Gal 3:8 The Gospel was preached to Abraham

Of course that is correct... but MORE of the Gospel was "revealed"
to the New Testament Saints than to the OT Saints... there can
be no debate about that.

Heb 4:2 "we have had the Gospel preached to us just as they also"

So you want to argue the OT Saints understood as much of the
Gospel as the NT Saints AFTER Pentecost? I cannot even take
such an argument seriously. Clearly the NT Saints understood
MUCH MORE than the OT Saints... in fact many LIVED and
SPOKE directly with Jesus. The NT "reveals" OT mysteries.

1 Cor 10 "They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ"

Now you are just making a STRAWMAN argument by CONFLATING
separate issues. Of course the Word of God all CAME from God...
that is NOT the issue we are discussing. The issue we are discussing
is simple: Did the NT Saints understand MUCH MORE of the Gospel
after Pentecost than the OT Saints understood before Christ came?
And the answer is so obvious it's not even debatable.

1 Pet 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Another STRAWMAN because we are NOT discussing whether the
OT Saints understood the "GRACE" that would come with the
Messiah.


Instead, we are discussing did the NT Saints KNOW MORE of the
Gospel than OT Saints.


Listen... I will make this very easy for you.
The Saints BEFORE Pentecost did not understand as much of the
Gospel as the Saints AFTER Pentecost... that is how EASY it is
to (Biblically) REFUTE your "theories".


Now... I will take it a step further:
The Saints living in the time of the Great Tribulation and/or
the 7-Headed Revelation Beast know MUCH MORE of the Gospel
than either the OT Saints or the Saints of the church age... before
the "testimony" of the church is finished [Rev 11:7] and before
the Last Saint is "sealed" and the Great Tribulation can begin
[Rev 7:1-3] with Satan being "loosened" from the Bottomless
Pit [Rev 9:1-2] after the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of
the way" [2Thess 2:6-9] so Satan can RULE during the
Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.


In fact, the Great Tribulation Saints are PROMISED that they
"shall understand" Biblical mysteries that remained "closed-up"
and "sealed" to ALL PREVIOUS SAINTS until the period called the
"time of the end" [Dan 12:8-10] or the "Season and Time".
[Dan 7:11-12].


And Jesus PROMISED the Great Tribulation Saints "shall see ALL
of these things" [Mat 24:15,33], meaning fulfillment of prophecies
of Great Tribulation events INCLUDING the NAME of the Antichrist.
Did the OT Saints know the NAME of the Antichrist? Did any of the
church age Saints know the NAME... do YOU know his NAME?


So clearly... there can be no SERIOUS debate that God "reveals"
His Gospel in a progressive manner so that the Jewish Saints knew
MORE than Pre-Flood Saints and the Christian Saints knew MORE
than the Jewish Saints (the POST Pentecost Saints knew MORE
than the PRE Pentecost Saints)... and the Great Tribulation Saints
know MUCH MORE than any previous Saint.


That is what the Bible teaches
And that is what history (reality) confirms.


Jim

 

[Brightfame52]

5th king

Yes, of course I have heard that very cute saying about the
OT being the NT concealed and the NT being the OT revealed.
Very cute... the only problem is that it's just a cute saying
and not a Biblical teaching.

Thats your opinion, but I believe its true !

You can believe whatever you want... it does not make it true.
But you can prove me wrong... just use SCRIPTURE instead of
your "feelings". Can you show me ONE VERSE in the Bible that
teaches the OT Gospel was the SAME as the NT Gospel?

You can believe whatever you want, that doesnt make it true.

I cant show a person anything if they dont have eyes to see. Paul used the OT scriptures to preach the Gospel under the New Covenant. That should be enough proof for a person who has any spiritual discernment.

Of course you cannot because (a) you would have already done
so, if you could, instead of arguing your "feelings" as if they had
some authority and (b) you even acknowledge the NT Gospel
"reveals" what was not known in the OT Gospel... so you have
already contradicted yourself.

The Gospel was Preached to Moses He 4:1-3

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Christ is the Eternal Purpose of God was slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Brightfame52]

But there can be no doubt or debate that God's PROGRAM
of Salvation changes. God's program during the Pre-Flood
Kingdom was DIFFERENT than God's program during the
Jewish Kingdom and DIFFERENT than God's Program in
the Christian Kingdom and DIFFERENT than God's
Program during the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


You need to EXPAND your thinking...
the history of mankind is just a REFLECTION of God's
salvation plan over four (4) temporal Kingdoms and EACH was
unique. That is just a Biblical and historical fact... whether you can
accept it or not.


Jim

You really been deceived. Salvation is by Grace through the Lord Jesus Christ from Day 1

 

[Clare73]

Yes, of course I have heard that vry cute saying about

the OT being the NT concealed and the NT being the OT revealed.
Very cute... the only problem is that it's just a cute saying
and not a Biblical teaching.

You don't think the NT revealing the meaning of the OT priesthood and mediatorship is a Biblical teaching?

You don't think the sacrifices of the OT concealing the NT human sacrifice of Jesus is a Biblical teaching?
.

 

[Brightfame52]

Gal 1:6-9 only ONE Gospel
Gal 3:8 The Gospel was preached to Abraham
Heb 4:2 "we have had the Gospel preached to us just as they also"
1 Cor 10 "They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ"
1 Pet 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Hey good scripture. No doubt Isaiah had the Gospel preached to him Isa 53:1-12

Who hath believed our report?[Gospel]
and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant,
and as a root out of a dry ground:
he hath no form nor comeliness;
and when we shall see him,
there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
and we hid as it were our faces from him;
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment:
and who shall declare his generation?
for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[BobRyan]

And you think that proves something? Why?
Do you think there was NOT a Jewish Gospel?
What was the OT?

.

Gal 1:6-9 only ONE Gospel
Gal 3:8 The Gospel was preached to Abraham
Heb 4:2 "we have had the Gospel preached to us just as they also"
1 Cor 10 "They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ"
1 Pet 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Of course you are right TECHNICALLY.
But there is no question the Gospel was "revealed" to the saints
in a progressive manner.

Saints living before the Flood did not
know the same Truths as Saints living in the Jewish "Kingdom".

No doubt as time goes by God reveals more details about the one and only Gospel. But the Gospel works the same no matter how limited is the data you have access to - about it.

Heb 11
4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he was attested to be righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for before he was taken up, he was attested to have been pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

ALL of the saints listed in HEB as the giants of the faith - held up as examples for NT saint to consider... are OT saints.

John 8
"6 Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw it and rejoiced."

1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow

 

[BobRyan]

Hey good scripture. No doubt Isaiah had the Gospel preached to him Isa 53:1-12

Amen to that!!

 

[5thKingdom]

Read Post #48 (again, since you responded to nothing in that post)
There is no reason for me to show the Truth over and over when
it will just be ignored (not refuted, just ignored). There can be
no serious debate about how the Gospel has been revealed.
It's history (reality), for which you cannot argue against.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Amen to that!!

Right... Isaiah knew the name of the Antichrist.
LOL

 

[5thKingdom]

Gal 1:6-9 only ONE Gospel

Right, all the previous saints understood what Jesus PROMISED
in Mat 24:15,33 and understood what the Bible said the last saints
"shall understand" Dan 12:8-10.

Deal with reality.

 

[5thKingdom]

You don't think the NT revealing the meaning of the OT priesthood and mediatorship is a Biblical teaching? You don't think the sacrifices of the OT concealing the NT human sacrifice of Jesus is a Biblical teaching?
.

Clare,

Please read post #48 again.
There is no reason for me to show the Truth over and over when
it will just be ignored (not refuted, just ignored). There can be
no serious debate about how the Gospel has been revealed.
It's history (reality), for which you cannot argue against.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

You really been deceived. Salvation is by Grace through the Lord Jesus Christ from Day 1

The question was NOT if Salvation is by Grace through Christ...
so you are only building a STRAWMAN when you pretend
otherwise.

Read Post #48 (again, since you responded to nothing in that post)
There is no reason for me to show the Truth over and over when
it will just be ignored (not refuted, just ignored). There can be
no serious debate about how the Gospel has been revealed.
It's history (reality), for which you cannot argue against.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

No doubt as time goes by God reveals more details about the one and only Gospel. But the Gospel works the same no matter how limited is the data you have access to - about it.

My statement was simple and clear...
The Gospel preached by Jewish Saints was DIFFERENT than
the Gospel preached by Pre-Flood saints (that is history)

The Gospel preached by Christian Saints was DIFFERENT
than the Gospel preached by Jewish Saints (again historical fact)

The Gospel preached by Great Tribulation Saints is DIFFERENT
than the Gospel preached by the Christian church...
See Daniel 12:8-10 and Matthew 24:15,33

This is just historical fact.... whether you like it or not.

.