Does God want "all men" to be saved?

[Clare73]

Clare, you could not be more wrong.
The EVENTS are NEVER revealed to Daniel (while on this earth)
because they remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all saints until
they are "revealed" at the "time of the end"...
did Daniel live during the "time of the end"?


Here is the CONTEXT of what we are discussing.
Notice (1) the EVENTS being discussed are the "Little Horn"
ruling over the "holy people" for 3.5 "times" and (2) this is the
SAME EVENT shown in Daniel 7 as the "Little Horn" rules over
the "saints" for 3.5 "times". So, we are talking about EVENTS
during the period shown as 3.5 "times/years/days/watches".
As these EVENTS are shown in DOZENS of other passages.


Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; [the Little Horn]
and he [the Little Horn] shall be diverse from the first [ten Horns],
and he shall subdue three kings. Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Now, after being shown these EVENTS in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8
and Daniel 11 and Daniel 12.... Daniel then admits:


Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?


The Bible then PROMISES the understanding of these prophecies
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until the "time of the end"
(also shown as the "Season and Time" in Dan 7:11-12) and then
the Last Saints "shall understand"


Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are
closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Dan 12:10 Many
shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


And we see this promise that the Last Saints "shall understand"
was already given - only a few verses before:


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,
even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro,
and knowledge shall be increased.


So you "theory" is completely refuted by Scripture.
Daniel did not understand the EVENTS in Daniel 7 or Daniel 8
or Daniel 11 or Daniel 12... and he did not understand the period
of 3.5 "times" either. Except it was the "time of the end".





But that is not the issue. The church (like Daniel) have not been
able to understand the fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies
(or prophecies of the Revelation Beast) as God PROMISED.


It is one thing to HAVE the TEXT (OT saints had Daniel's TEXT)
it is another thing altogether to UNDERSTAND the fulfillment of
those prophecies.


Now, JESUS PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" the fulfillment
of Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" [Mat 24:15] and He also
PROMISED they "shall see ALL OF THESE THINGS", referring to
all of the Great Tribulation prophecies [Mat 24:33]


The church HAD the text of Revelation and Matthew 24 and 25..
but NONE were ever able to "understand". And this is proven
immediately by the fact that NOBODY can tell the NAME of the
man called the "Little Horn" or the "False Prophet" or "Beast"
of Revelation or the "Man of Sin" of 2Thess 2.


However, 2Thess 2:6-9 PROMISES (again) the Saints that see
the Holy Spirit "taken out of the way" will be the same Saints
to which the "Man of Sin" is (wait for it.....) "revealed".


So, I do not mean to be rude or condescending to you (seriously)
but you do not have a CLUE what you are talking about with this
subject. As I said, there are (literally) DOZENS of other passages
talking about this SAME EVENT. You would have to harmonize
all of them before you could pretend to offer an "informed opinion".

Which is the reason WHY you must accept what the BIBLE
says about these "mysteries" being "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all saints until they are "revealed" to the Last Saints during the
"time of the end" or the "Season and Time" or the period
when the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" and the
"Man of Sin" has been "revealed" (to the Last Saints)


Of course, you can prove me wrong....
Just tell me the NAME of the person called the "Little Horn"
or "False Prophet" or "Man of Sin", commonly known as the
Antichrist. Based on your argument you MUST know the NAME
of the Antichrist. Otherwise, you have already PROVEN yourself
to be CLUELESS... and not able to offer an "informed opinion"
on this matter.


Although I am certain you can offer an "informed opinion"
on many other Scriptures. And I mean that sincerely.


Jim

I'm not happy to hear that from you.
So with the same all due respect, let me point out that:

"Revealed" in your sense above is "to manifest, to make evident to sight," as Jesus is "revealed" at the Second Coming (1Co 1:7; 2Th 1:7; 1Pe 1:5, 13, 4:13), the glory "revealed" in the saints (Ro 8:18), the grace "revealed" in Christ (2Ti 1:10), etc.

My understanding of your use of "reveal" is "teaching, understanding," "revealed" in the church in the last times.

Your presenting of teaching in the past on a subject, which teaching is not understood, and then additional teaching to come in the future on the same subject, which teaching is understood, sets up the NT Word of God written some 2,000 years ago to be neutralized, nullified by new teaching not found in, or contradictory to, the NT Word of God written--in that we did not understand 2,000 years ago what we now understand, which may not be in agreement with, or may be even contradictory to the NT Word of God written 2,000 years ago.

And I understand you to be using this principle to justify your interpretation of prophecy not in agreement with NT teaching.

However, I think we are in agreement on everything outside fulfilled and unfulfilled prophecy.

And you are correct, I have no specific interpretations of prophecy, but I do have a general one... which I will not defend. . .it's prophecy after all, subject to more than one interpretation.

The Book of Completions (7's) -- THE SUM OF PROPHECY -- for the Church age

the figurative Completion of God's plan: of God's decrees, proclamations, revelations and judgments,
in four completions: of Christ's satisfaction, of God's mercy, of God's wrath and judgment, and of God's inheritance in the saints.

I. Plan begins in eternity. . .
Completion of Christ's Satisfaction
---a) Chp 1-3 = shepherding from beyond time of 7 churches by the Good Shepherd

II. Plan continues in time. . .
Completion of God's Mercy (Church age)
---b) Chp 4-7 = completion of trial, persecution of church under 7 seals (decrees)
---c) Chp 8-11 = completion of protection, victory of church under 7 trumpets (proclamations)
---d) Chp 12-14 = completion of conflict of two spiritual kingdoms under 7 signs (revelations)

Completion of God's Wrath (end of Church age)
---e) Chp 15-16 = judgment of Satan's kingdom under 7 plagues and bowls poured out (judgments)
---f) Chp 17-19 = destruction of Satan's kingdom
---g) Chp 20 = summary of Church age

III. Plan ends in eternity. . .
Completion of God's Inheritance in the Saints--Ps 33:12; Eph 1:18; Ex 19:5, Dt 7:6, 26:18; Mal 3:17:
---h) Chp 21-22 = exaltation of Church (OT and NT saints) in heavenly city of glory

 

[5thKingdom]

I'm not happy to hear that from you.

I do not know WHAT specifically you are not happy to hear
so I cannot respond to that - but I doubt that makes any
difference.

"Revealed" in your sense above is "to manifest, to make evident to sight," as Jesus is "revealed" at the Second Coming (1Co 1:7; 2Th 1:7; 1Pe 1:5, 13, 4:13), the glory "revealed" in the saints (Ro 8:18), the grace "revealed" in Christ (2Ti 1:10), etc.

No, it is not MY USE of the term "revealed" at all...
It is the Bible's use of the term, which I cited to you already,
but I will now QUOTE so there can be no confusion:


2Th 2:6-9
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed
in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only
he who now letteth [the Holy Spirit] will let, until he be taken out
of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy
with the brightness of his coming: Even him [the "Little Horn" of Dan,
or the "Beast" of Rev. or the "man of sin" who is "revealed" in v3,
the person commonly called Antichrist], whose coming is after the
working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Clearly in 2 Thess2 v3 and v6-9 the term "revealed" indicates the
Saints living at that time become AWARE... or as Daniel 12 says,
they "shall understand", or as Matthew 24 says, they "shall SEE
all these things". There can be no debate about what the term
"revealed" means in these cases - or to WHO "shall see" or
"shall understand".

My understanding of your use of "reveal" is teaching, understanding, "revealed" in the church in the last times.

As explained above, the BIBLE'S use (not my use) of "revealed"
or "shall understand" or "shall see" in respect to the "Little Horn"
or "the Beast" or the "Man of Sin" has NOTHING to do with what
was "revealed" to the church since Pentecost. It applies ONLY to
the Last Saints who are alive AFTER the Holy Spirit has been (again)
"taken out of the way" and AFTER the Revelation Beast arises.


Which is WHY Daniel 12:8-10 specifies this information remains
"closed-up" and "sealed" to ALL THE SAINTS until the period
called the "time of the end"... which is AFTER the church age.


Again, this all occurs AFTER the church age is finished, when the
"testimony" of the church is done [Rev 11:7], after the LAST
saint has been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] and Satan is "loosened"
to RULE during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast [Rev 9:1-2]
This is the CONTEXT of the "time of the end" [Dan 12:8-10] or
the "Season and Time" [Dan 7:11-12] or the period BETWEEN
the Sixth Trump and Seventh Trumpet [Rev 11:14] or the period
BETWEEN Revelation 20:10 and 19:20. Or the period shown in
Daniel 7:24-25 or in Rev 17:12-13 and Rev 17:17. And I could go
on-and-on, but there is no point... the point has been made (clearly).


I told you this is way beyond your understanding. But I can show
complete harmony of Scripture about these EVENTS. And there
are (literally) DOZENS of other verses talking about ("revealing")
these EVENTS. I do not say this sarcastically or maliciously, but
very sincerely, as I have been studying these things for well over
20 years and have SEEN these things "revealed", as have others.

Your presenting of teaching in the past on a subject, which teaching is not understood, and then additional teaching to come in the future on the same subject, which teaching is understood, sets up the NT Word of God written some 2,000 years ago to be neutralized, nullified by new teaching not found in, or contradictory to, the NT Word of God written--in that we did not understand 2,000 years ago what we now understand, which may not be in agreement with, or may be even contradictory to the NT Word of God written 2,000 years ago.

You completely lost me with that. But the concept is very simple.
God never intended Jews to understand the END of their Kingdom
as the LAST Jewish saints were "harvested" into the Christian era.


John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields;
for they are white already to harvest.


Likewise, God never intended the saints in the church age to be
able to "understand" what would be "revealed" to the Last Saints
during the "time of the end" AFTER the church age is done, AFTER
the "testimony" of the church is finished, AFTER the Last Saint has
been "sealed"... which is the CONTEXT of what we are talking
about (above) and relates to the passage below.


Act 1:6-7
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you [saints in the church age]
to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put
in his own power. [and would be "revealed" to the Last Saints]

And you are correct, I have no specific interpretations of prophecy, but I do have a general one... which I will not defend. . .it's prophecy after all, subject to more than one interpretation.

Of course that is what the church has always taught BECAUSE
God PROMISED the Truth would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all saints until the "time of the end" AFTER the church age...
so saints WITHIN the church age could only GUESS at possible
fulfillment of prophecies they were NEVER given to understand.


The REASON why you say prophecies are "subject to more than
one interpretation" is because God PROMISED the Truth would
remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until the church age was done...
so previous saints could only GUESS at the fulfillment of prophecy.
While the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints "shall understand"
(for the first time) and they "shall see ALL of these things"
(for the first time). And they would PREACH all these things.


As I already pointed out to you (which you ignored) the
Last Saints and ONLY the Last Saints "shall see" the fulfillment
of Great Tribulation prophecies and ONLY they would be able to
NAME the "Little Horn" or "Man of Sin" or the "Antichrist...
I asked you to NAME the Antichrist and, of course you could not.
But the Last Saints will know his NAME since he RULES over them.
Look up what the BIBLE "reveals" about this matter, if you dare.
[Rev 17:12-13, Rev 17:17, Dan 7:24-25, Mat 25:1-13]


Listen, I do not expect you to understand (Dan 12 promises that
is not possible) and I am not looking for any confirmation... I am
just telling you the way it is BIBLICALLY and HISTORICALLY.


Again, I say this with all due respect.
But knowing I can harmonize these things that are "revealed"
with (literally) DOZENS of OTHER PASSAGES besides the ones
which I have already QUOTED... and are sufficient to end any/all
"debate" about what the Bible says on this subject.

The Book of Completions (7's) -- THE SUM OF PROPHECY --
for the Church age

Again, we are talking about things "revealed" or "seen" AFTER
the church age... after the "testimony" of the church has been
"finished" and AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed"...


So the GUESSING ("interpretations") you note are completely
worthless. It is like Jews GUESSING ("interpreting") the END
of their Kingdom. That is a totally accurate analogy. Shown
by the fact you cannot deal with the SCRIPTURES I quote
but are diminished to ignore them and post GUESSING
of those who GOD PROMISED were not meant to
understand. (as it was "closed-up" and "sealed")
to them. That is what the Bible teaches.


Jim

 

[Clare73]

I do not know WHAT specifically you are not happy to hear
so I cannot respond to that - but I doubt that makes any
difference.

The emphasis was on "you," because I value your Biblical understanding.

Since prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation, my only interest in an interpretation is when it is not in agreement with NT teaching.
My response to your interpretation is simply because it sets up NT teaching to be neutralized, nullified, or at least contradictory to "new understanding."
No way that's right.

No, it is not MY USE of the term "revealed" at all...
It is the Bible's use of the term, which I cited to you already,
but I will now QUOTE so there can be no confusion:

2Th 2:6-9
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed
in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only
he who now letteth [the Holy Spirit] will let, until he be taken out
of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy
with the brightness of his coming: Even him [the "Little Horn" of Dan,
or the "Beast" of Rev. or the "man of sin" who is "revealed" in v3,
the person commonly called Antichrist], whose coming is after the
working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Clearly in 2 Thess2 v3 and v6-9 the term "revealed" indicates the
Saints living at that time become AWARE... or as Daniel 12 says,
they "shall understand", or as Matthew 24 says, they "shall SEE
all these things". There can be no debate about what the term
"revealed" means in these cases - or to WHO "shall see" or
"shall understand".

That fits the meaning of revealed as "made manifest". . .he may be walking around among them, but he has not manifested himself as the man of lawlessness.
No need for it to mean "new (different) understanding apart from NT teaching."

As explained above, the BIBLE'S use (not my use) of "revealed"
or "shall understand" or "shall see" in respect to the "Little Horn"
or "the Beast" or the "Man of Sin" has NOTHING to do with what
was "revealed" to the church since Pentecost. It applies ONLY to
the Last Saints who are alive AFTER the Holy Spirit has been (again)
"taken out of the way" and AFTER the Revelation Beast arises.
Which is WHY Daniel 12:8-10 specifies this information remains
"closed-up" and "sealed" to ALL THE SAINTS until the period
called the "time of the end"... which is AFTER the church age.


Again, this all occurs AFTER the church age is finished, when the
"testimony" of the church is done [Rev 11:7], after the LAST
saint has been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] and Satan is "loosened"
to RULE during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast [Rev 9:1-2]
This is the CONTEXT of the "time of the end" [Dan 12:8-10] or
the "Season and Time" [Dan 7:11-12] or the period BETWEEN
the Sixth Trump and Seventh Trumpet [Rev 11:14] or the period
BETWEEN Revelation 20:10 and 19:20. Or the period shown in
Daniel 7:24-25 or in Rev 17:12-13 and Rev 17:17. And I could go
on-and-on, but there is no point... the point has been made (clearly).


I told you this is way beyond your understanding. But I can show
complete harmony of Scripture about these EVENTS. And there
are (literally) DOZENS of other verses talking about ("revealing")
these EVENTS. I do not say this sarcastically or maliciously, but
very sincerely, as I have been studying these things for well over
20 years and have SEEN these things "revealed", as have others.





You completely lost me with that. But the concept is very simple.
God never intended Jews to understand the END of their Kingdom
as the LAST Jewish saints were "harvested" into the Christian era.


John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields;
for they are white already to harvest.


Likewise, God never intended the saints in the church age to be
able to "understand" what would be "revealed" to the Last Saints
during the "time of the end" AFTER the church age is done, after
the "testimony" of the church is finished, after the Last Saint has
been "sealed"... which is the CONTEXT of what we are talking
about (above) and relates to the passage below.


Act 1:6-7
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you [saints in the church age]
to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put
in his own power. [and would be "revealed" to the Last Saints]






Of course that is what the church has always taught BECAUSE
God PROMISED the Truth would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all saints until the "time of the end" AFTER the church age...
so saints WITHIN the church age could only GUESS at possible
fulfillment of prophecies they were NEVER given to understand.


The REASON why you say prophecies are "subject to more than
one interpretation" is because God PROMISED the Truth would
remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until the church age was done...
so previous saints could only GUESS at the fulfillment of prophecy.
While the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints "shall understand"
(for the first time) and they "shall see ALL of these things"
(for the first time). And they would PREACH all these things.


As I already pointed out to you (which you ignored) the
Last Saints and ONLY the Last Saints "shall see" the fulfillment
of Great Tribulation prophecies and ONLY they would be able to
NAME the "Little Horn" or "Man of Sin" or the "Antichrist...
I asked you to NAME the Antichrist and, of course you could not.
But the Last Saints will know his NAME since he RULES over them.
Look up what the BIBLE "reveals" about this, if you dare.
[Rev 17:12-13, Rev 17:17, Dan 7:24-25, Mat 25:1-13]


Listen, I do not expect you to understand (Dan 12 promises that
is not possible) and I am not looking for any confirmation... I am
just telling you the way it is BIBLICALLY and HISTORICALLY.


Again, I say this with all due respect.
But knowing I can harmonize these things that are "revealed"
with (literally) DOZENS of OTHER PASSAGES besides the ones
which I have already QUOTED... and are sufficient to end any/all
"debate" about what the Bible says on this subject.





Again, we are talking about things "revealed" or "seen" AFTER
the church age... after the "testimony" of the church has been
"finished" and AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed"...


So the GUESSING ("interpretations") you note are completely
worthless. It is like Jews GUESSING ("interpreting") the END
of their Kingdom. That is a totally accurate analogy. Shown
by the fact you cannot deal with the SCRIPTURES I quote
but are diminished to ignore them and post GUESSING
of those who GOD PROMISED were not meant to
understand. (as it was "closed-up" and "sealed")
to them. That is what the Bible teaches.

I am in total disagreement of anything after the resurrection, rapture and final judgment at the end of time other than the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness.
Your proofs are based on your interpretation of prophecy, which interpretation is what is to be demonstrated.

Sorry, you went to all that trouble.

The only thing I was trying to determine is if your understanding of "revealed" means what is "revealed" can override the NT Word of God written.

I had you figured to be too sound for that notion.

Did I get it wrong?

 

[5thKingdom]

The emphasis was on "you," because I value your opinion on Biblical teaching.

Thank you, I value your opinion also.
But you do not understand Scriptures about events
AFTER the church age. And that is what we are discussing.

Since prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation,

Prophecy is ONLY subject to more than one interpretation
until it is "revealed" or "fulfilled". Jesus was the fulfillment
of the "Lamb of God", and that was "revealed" the those
in the church... to the saints AFTER the Jewish Kingdom.


Likewise, we are talking about prophecies that were "revealed"
to the Saints when they were "fulfilled" AFTER the church age.
So any "interpretation" of the church age would be meaningless,
as meaningless as an "interpretation" from the Jewish Kingdom.

my only interest in an interpretation is when it is not in agreement with NT teaching.

But, of course, that is the POINT.
We are talking about prophecies that were not meant to be
"revealed" (which God PROMISED they would remain "sealed")
until AFTER the church age.


So "interpretations" FROM THE CHURCH AGE are meaningless.


Let me put it this way.
Daniel 12:8-10 PROMISES the Truth of Daniel's prophecies
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" UNTIL the "time of the end"
which is AFTER the church age.


Therefore, any "interpretation" of men BEFORE the end of the
church age (before the "time of the end") is AUTOMATICALLY
proven to be wrong... because it was made BEFORE the time
when the Truth was no longer "closed-up" and "sealed".

My response to your interpretation is simply because it sets up NT teaching to be neutralized, nullified, or at least contradictory to "new understanding." No way that's right.

Again... that is the POINT.
Just as some prophecies were "sealed" in the Jewish age,
the Bible PROMISES other prophecies (like Daniel's prophecies
and Great Tribulation prophecies) would remain "sealed" until
AFTER the Church age.


Therefore, it is a contradiction to say prophecies "sealed" during
the church age should have been understood in the church age.
The Bible PROMISES they would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
until AFTER the church age was finished and the Holy Spirit was
"taken out of the way".


Look, I have already shown you MANY passages talking about
EVENTS that occur AFTER the church age is finished and all the
saints have been "sealed"...


Has the church ever "testified" about EVENTS that occur
AFTER the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" and
AFTER the last saint has been "sealed" and Satan Rules...
as I showed you? You never refuted any SCRIPTURE that
I gave you - you only object to the concept of Biblical Truth
being "sealed" during the church age. That rebukes nothing.


Especially when I gave you SCRIPTURE that PROMISED
events would remain "sealed" during the church age...
before the "time of the end".

No need for it to mean "new (different) understanding apart from NT teaching."

And again, just as prophecies "sealed" during the Jewish Kingdom
were not "revealed" until AFTER the Jewish age. Prophecies
"sealed" during the Church age were not "revealed" until
AFTER the church age.


The "Man of Sin" is not "revealed" until AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" (after the church age)...
so you cannot argue it MUST be "revealed" BEFORE
the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way".


It's just a contradiction to claim they should be KNOWN
during the church age (while they were "sealed")
I cannot say this any clearer...


The BIBLE cannot say this any clearer.


As I said, I did not expect you to understand (since Daniel 12
PROMISES that is not possible) and I am not looking for your
acknowledgement of these Biblical Truths.


The Bible PROMISES the Last Saints would PREACH these things
(after the church age) and that is what we are doing. I am not
offended you disagree (or cannot "see"), but I have DOZENS
of passages saying the same thing (harmony of Scripture)
and all you have is "the church did not teach that"...
when that is exactly the POINT of being "sealed"
until AFTER the church age.


I would like to just drop this.
I have nothing to add and you have no SCRIPTURE
that addresses events AFTER the church age. So we
are only arguing about your "feelings", and not Scripture.
In fact you have not even attempted to refute any Scripture
that I provided. So we will have to just agree to disagree.


Jim

 

[Clare73]

Thank you, I value your opinion also.
But you do not understand Scriptures about events
AFTER the church age. And that is what we are discussing.

I won't argue your statement.

My understanding, just for the record:
NT teaching presents the church age as now, and ending at the end of time. The end of the church age is the end of time. The next age is the new creation, the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, after the present heavens and earth are destroyed by fire.

So I guess you see the events you are describing as occurring after the end of time. . .in what age?
Or, are these events part of a temporal destroying by fire of the present heavens and earth, resulting in the new creation, the home of righteousness, which begins after the end of time?

Prophecy is ONLY subject to more than one interpretation
until it is "revealed" or "fulfilled". Jesus was the fulfillment
of the "Lamb of God", and that was "revealed" the those
in the church... to the saints AFTER the Jewish Kingdom.

I agree. . .we don't know the true meaning of prophecy until it is fulfilled.

Likewise, we are talking about prophecies that were "revealed"
to the Saints when they were "fulfilled" AFTER the church age.
So any "interpretation" of the church age would be meaningless,
as meaningless as an "interpretation" from the Jewish Kingdom. . .

. . .So "interpretations" FROM THE CHURCH AGE are meaningless.

Help me out here. . .if interpretations from the church age are meaningless, and you are in the church age, does that mean your interpretations are meaningless?

This is the point where the rail divides.
I see no temporal age after the church age in NT teaching.

Your understanding of events as being after the church age comes from your personal interpretation of prophecy, which interpretation I see as not in agreement with NT teaching.

Your basis of understanding prophecy is personal interpretation, whereas my basis of understanding is boundaried by NT teaching; i.e., interpretation must be in agreement with NT teaching.

So carry on. . .we are on different rails.

But, of course, that is the POINT.
We are talking about prophecies that were not meant to be
"revealed" (which God PROMISED they would remain "sealed")
until AFTER the church age.


So "interpretations" FROM THE CHURCH AGE are meaningless.


Let me put it this way.
Daniel 12:8-10 PROMISES the Truth of Daniel's prophecies
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" UNTIL the "time of the end"
which is AFTER the church age.


Therefore, any "interpretation" of men BEFORE the end of the
church age (before the "time of the end") is AUTOMATICALLY
proven to be wrong... because it was made BEFORE the time
when the Truth was no longer "closed-up" and "sealed".





Again... that is the POINT.
Just as some prophecies were "sealed" in the Jewish age,
the Bible PROMISES other prophecies (like Daniel's prophecies
and Great Tribulation prophecies) would remain "sealed" until
AFTER the Church age.


Therefore, it is a contradiction to say prophecies "sealed" during
the church age should have been understood in the church age.
The Bible PROMISES they would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
until AFTER the church age was finished and the Holy Spirit was
"taken out of the way".


Look, I have already shown you MANY passages talking about
EVENTS that occur AFTER the church age is finished and all the
saints have been "sealed"...


Has the church ever "testified" about EVENTS that occur
AFTER the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" and
AFTER the last saint has been "sealed" and Satan Rules...
as I showed you? You never refuted any SCRIPTURE that
I gave you - you only object to the concept of Biblical Truth
being "sealed" during the church age. That rebukes nothing.


Especially when I gave you SCRIPTURE that PROMISED
events would remain "sealed" during the church age...
before the "time of the end".





And again, just as prophecies "sealed" during the Jewish Kingdom
were not "revealed" until AFTER the Jewish age. Prophecies
"sealed" during the Church age were not "revealed" until
AFTER the church age.


The "Man of Sin" is not "revealed" until AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" (after the church age)...
so you cannot argue it MUST be "revealed" BEFORE
the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way".


It's just a contradiction to claim they should be KNOWN
during the church age (while they were "sealed")
I cannot say this any clearer...


The BIBLE cannot say this any clearer.


As I said, I did not expect you to understand (since Daniel 12
PROMISES that is not possible) and I am not looking for your
acknowledgement of these Biblical Truths.


The Bible PROMISES the Last Saints would PREACH these things
(after the church age) and that is what we are doing. I am not
offended you disagree (or cannot "see"), but I have DOZENS
of passages saying the same thing (harmony of Scripture)
and all you have is "the church did not teach that"...
when that is exactly the POINT of being "sealed"
until AFTER the church age.


I would like to just drop this.
I have nothing to add and you have no SCRIPTURE
that addresses events AFTER the church age. So we
are only arguing about your "feelings", and not Scripture.
In fact you have not even attempted to refute any Scripture
that I provided. So we will have to just agree to disagree.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

NT teaching presents the church age as now, and ending at the end of time. The end of the church age is the end of time.

No Clare, the church age ends BEFORE the Great Tribulation
and/or the Revelation Beast occurs. This is the period when the
Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" because the last saint
has been "sealed" (saved) and Satan will now RULE (by his Antichrist)
for a time called 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night"


Notice you cannot REFUTE any of the Scriptures I gave you?
Biblical Truth is not LIMITED to what you understand. The Bible
talks about EVENTS AFTER THE CHURCH AGE in (literally) dozens
of verses... NONE of which you can explain. Here are just a few:


(1) How do you explain the period AFTER the Holy Spirit has
been "taken out of the way"? [2Thess 2:3,6-9] You cannot
explain it because it happens AFTER the church age is finished,
before Satan can be "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit so he
can RULE over the Last Saints.


(2) How do you explain the period AFTER the "testimony" of
the church (the 2 candlesticks and 2 Olive Trees = the church)
is been "finished"? [Rev 11:7] You cannot explain it because
it happens AFTER the Church age is finished and AFTER the
Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way"."


(3) How do you explain the period AFTER the last Saint has been
"sealed"... before the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast BEGINS?
[Rev 7:1-2] You can't explain this because it happens AFTER the
"testimony' of the church age is finished... and AFTER salvation
is finished (since the last saint is saved) and AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE over the
Last Saints, during the Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast.


(4) How do you explain how the the "Little Horn" makes war and
"prevails" against the (last) saints, until the "Ancient of Days"
comes? [Dan 7:21-22] You can't explain it because it happens
AFTER the church age is finished, AFTER the last saint is "sealed"
and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" so Satan can
RULE (through his Antichrist) during the Revelation Beast.


(5) How do you explain how the period WHEN the "Little Horn"
RULES over the last saints for 3.5 "times"? [Dan 7:24-25]
You can't explain it because it happens AFTER the church age
is finished and AFTER the last Saint is "sealed" and AFTER
the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan
can RULE during the Great Tribulation.


(6) How do you explain the period WHEN the "woman" [the bride]
is HIDDEN from the serpent for 3.5 "times"? [Rev 12:14]
You can't explain it because it's AFTER the church age is finished
and AFTER the last saint is "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE.


(7) How do you explain the period WHEN the power of the
"Holy People" is "scattered" [by the Antichrist] for 3.5 "times"?
[Dan 17:7]. You can't explain it because it happens AFTER the
church age is finished, AFTER the last saint has been "sealed"
and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" so that
Satan can RULE during the Revelation Beast.


(8) How do you explain the period WHEN the (last) saints are
"given into the hand" of the Antichrist for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7:25]. You can't explain it since it occurs AFTER the church age is finished
and AFTER h the last saint is "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" so the "Little Horn" can RULE.


(9) How do you explain the period WHEN the last saints are first "overcome" and then they are "killed" by Satan (and his Antichrist]
for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11:7-11]. You can't explain it because it occurs
AFTER the church age is finished, AFTER the (last) saint has been
"sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way",
so Satan can RULE during after being "loosened" from the
Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-2]


(10) How do you explain the period WHEN the "Holy City" is trodden
under the feet (of the Antichrist) for 42 months or 3.5 "years"
[Rev 11:1-2]. You can't explain it because it happens AFTER
the church age has been finished and AFTER the last Saint has
been "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way".


(11) How do you explain the period WHEN the Revelation Beast
is "worshiped" as "power is given to him" to RULE over everyone
(including the last saints, the Great Tribulation saints) for a period of
forty two months or 3.5 "years"? [Rev 13:4-7] You can't explain
because it happens AFTER the "testimony" of the church has been
"finished", AFTER the church age is over, and AFTER the last Saint
is "sealed", and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"
so Satan can RULE over the last Saints for a period shown as
3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night".



Clare, the people called the ten "virgins" of Matthew 25:1-13 are
the last "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns. And the people called the ten "kings/horns" of Daniel 7 are also the
last "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns. And
people (again) called the ten "kings/horns" of Revelation 17 are
the "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns.
In other words, the Bible shows the last "wheat and tares"
on earth from (at least) these three different perspectives.


Rev 17:12-13
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; [during the church age] but receive
power as kings one hour with the [Revelation] Beast. These [last
wheat and tares] have one mind, and shall give their power and
strength unto the beast.


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God
shall be fulfilled.


Clare, before you can even PRETEND to understand the END
of the Church Age and the events occurring in the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1], also shown as the 7-Headed
Revelation Beast, you will need to be able to explain all the verses above. If you cannot (and you cannot) then you only demonstrate
that you are neither capable or qualified to offer an "informed opinion"
on the events which occur AFTER the church age ENDS and AFTER
the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE
over the Last Saints. It is rally as simple as that.


It does not matter what you "feel" or what you "believe" or what
the "church" says... Harmony of Scripture is the ONLY MEASURE of
Biblical Truth and there are (literally) DOZENS of passages besides
the ones I presented above - and you cannot explain any of them.
You are REFUTED by Scripture (not by me).


Again, I say this with all due respect and no malice whatsoever,
you simply do not know what you are talking about when you say
the end of the church age is the end of the world.


Besides the verses shown above (NONE of which you can explain)
there are MANY MORE (related) verses you cannot incorporate into
your theory, like the time AFTER the Second Woe and BEFORE the
Third Woe [Rev 11:14], or the time AFTER Revelation 20:10 and
BEFORE Revelation 19:20... which is the time AFTER the Revelation Beast is "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" [Rev 20:10] and the time
when Satan and the government of the world (Kingdoms of Man)
are destroyed and JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake of Fire [Rev 19:20]


You would need to HARMONIZE all the verses I just presented
(and many others) before you could claim to be qualified or capable
of offering an "informed opinion" on the END of the Church age...
or EVENTS occurring AFTER the end of the church age.


You can (and will) DENY what I have shown you in SCRIPTURE,
but you can never REFUTE it with even one verse of Scripture...
so your "feelings" or "beliefs" about the matter mean nothing.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Help me out here. . .if interpretations from the church age are meaningless, and you are in the church age, does that mean your interpretations are meaningless?

It's the BIBLE that says mysteries remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
until AFTER the end of the church age... I just quoted those verses.
Your fight is with the BIBLE (not with me) since you cannot
harmonize those verses into your preaching.


And who said we are still in the church age?
I never said that and you have no reason to assume it.
The Jews SINCERELY believe the END of their Kingdom is still
in the future... just as you SINCERELY believe the same.


When you can address the SCRIPTURES I just gave you
in Post #86, then (and only then) can you offer any kind
of an "informed opinion" on this matter.


Jim

 

[Brightfame52]

No Clare, the church age ends BEFORE the Great Tribulation
and/or the Revelation Beast occurs. This is the period when the
Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" because the last saint
has been "sealed" (saved) and Satan will now RULE (by his Antichrist)
for a time called 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night"


Notice you cannot REFUTE any of the Scriptures I gave you?
Biblical Truth is not LIMITED to what you understand. The Bible
talks about EVENTS AFTER THE CHURCH AGE in (literally) dozens
of verses... NONE of which you can explain. Here are just a few:


(1) How do you explain the period AFTER the Holy Spirit has
been "taken out of the way"? [2Thess 2:3,6-9] You cannot
explain it because it happens AFTER the church age is finished,
before Satan can be "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit so he
can RULE over the Last Saints.


(2) How do you explain the period AFTER the "testimony" of
the church (the 2 candlesticks and 2 Olive Trees = the church)
is been "finished"? [Rev 11:7] You cannot explain it because
it happens AFTER the Church age is finished and AFTER the
Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way"."


(3) How do you explain the period AFTER the last Saint has been
"sealed"... before the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast BEGINS?
[Rev 7:1-2] You can't explain this because it happens AFTER the
"testimony' of the church age is finished... and AFTER salvation
is finished (since the last saint is saved) and AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE over the
Last Saints, during the Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast.


(4) How do you explain how the the "Little Horn" makes war and
"prevails" against the (last) saints, until the "Ancient of Days"
comes? [Dan 7:21-22] You can't explain it because it happens
AFTER the church age is finished, AFTER the last saint is "sealed"
and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" so Satan can
RULE (through his Antichrist) during the Revelation Beast.


(5) How do you explain how the period WHEN the "Little Horn"
RULES over the last saints for 3.5 "times"? [Dan 7:24-25]
You can't explain it because it happens AFTER the church age
is finished and AFTER the last Saint is "sealed" and AFTER
the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan
can RULE during the Great Tribulation.


(6) How do you explain the period WHEN the "woman" [the bride]
is HIDDEN from the serpent for 3.5 "times"? [Rev 12:14]
You can't explain it because it's AFTER the church age is finished
and AFTER the last saint is "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE.


(7) How do you explain the period WHEN the power of the
"Holy People" is "scattered" [by the Antichrist] for 3.5 "times"?
[Dan 17:7]. You can't explain it because it happens AFTER the
church age is finished, AFTER the last saint has been "sealed"
and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" so that
Satan can RULE during the Revelation Beast.


(8) How do you explain the period WHEN the (last) saints are
"given into the hand" of the Antichrist for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7:25]. You can't explain it since it occurs AFTER the church age is finished
and AFTER h the last saint is "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" so the "Little Horn" can RULE.


(9) How do you explain the period WHEN the last saints are first "overcome" and then they are "killed" by Satan (and his Antichrist]
for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11:7-11]. You can't explain it because it occurs
AFTER the church age is finished, AFTER the (last) saint has been
"sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way",
so Satan can RULE during after being "loosened" from the
Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-2]


(10) How do you explain the period WHEN the "Holy City" is trodden
under the feet (of the Antichrist) for 42 months or 3.5 "years"
[Rev 11:1-2]. You can't explain it because it happens AFTER
the church age has been finished and AFTER the last Saint has
been "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way".


(11) How do you explain the period WHEN the Revelation Beast
is "worshiped" as "power is given to him" to RULE over everyone
(including the last saints, the Great Tribulation saints) for a period of
forty two months or 3.5 "years"? [Rev 13:4-7] You can't explain
because it happens AFTER the "testimony" of the church has been
"finished", AFTER the church age is over, and AFTER the last Saint
is "sealed", and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"
so Satan can RULE over the last Saints for a period shown as
3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night".



Clare, the people called the ten "virgins" of Matthew 25:1-13 are
the last "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns. And the people called the ten "kings/horns" of Daniel 7 are also the
last "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns. And
people (again) called the ten "kings/horns" of Revelation 17 are
the "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns.
In other words, the Bible shows the last "wheat and tares"
on earth from (at least) these three different perspectives.


Rev 17:12-13
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; [during the church age] but receive
power as kings one hour with the [Revelation] Beast. These [last
wheat and tares] have one mind, and shall give their power and
strength unto the beast.


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God
shall be fulfilled.


Clare, before you can even PRETEND to understand the END
of the Church Age and the events occurring in the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1], also shown as the 7-Headed
Revelation Beast, you will need to be able to explain all the verses above. If you cannot (and you cannot) then you only demonstrate
that you are neither capable or qualified to offer an "informed opinion"
on the events which occur AFTER the church age ENDS and AFTER
the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE
over the Last Saints. It is rally as simple as that.


It does not matter what you "feel" or what you "believe" or what
the "church" says... Harmony of Scripture is the ONLY MEASURE of
Biblical Truth and there are (literally) DOZENS of passages besides
the ones I presented above - and you cannot explain any of them.
You are REFUTED by Scripture (not by me).


Again, I say this with all due respect and no malice whatsoever,
you simply do not know what you are talking about when you say
the end of the church age is the end of the world.


Besides the verses shown above (NONE of which you can explain)
there are MANY MORE (related) verses you cannot incorporate into
your theory, like the time AFTER the Second Woe and BEFORE the
Third Woe [Rev 11:14], or the time AFTER Revelation 20:10 and
BEFORE Revelation 19:20... which is the time AFTER the Revelation Beast is "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" [Rev 20:10] and the time
when Satan and the government of the world (Kingdoms of Man)
are destroyed and JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake of Fire [Rev 19:20]


You would need to HARMONIZE all the verses I just presented
(and many others) before you could claim to be qualified or capable
of offering an "informed opinion" on the END of the Church age...
or EVENTS occurring AFTER the end of the church age.


You can (and will) DENY what I have shown you in SCRIPTURE,
but you can never REFUTE it with even one verse of Scripture...
so your "feelings" or "beliefs" about the matter mean nothing.


Jim

Nothing here about the Church age having come to a end. Granted the testimony of the Church will be silenced and attacked due to the over abundance of false gospels, but the age itself ends only at the 2nd coming.

 

[fhansen]

First, you ether skipped over the end of my response or you
do not believe what the Bible PROMISES to those who are
actually "indwelt". The Bible PROMISES we (real) saints will
absolutely be able to know we are "indwelt" as the result of
our "adoption". So your comment about "none can predict"
has NO Biblical support whatsoever... it is only a reflection
of your "feelings" and not what the Gospel PROMISES.

Now wait a minute. First of all you say that you’re indwelt by the Spirit; I certainly never even suggested such a thing.

 

[5thKingdom]

Nothing here about the Church age having come to a end. Granted the testimony of the Church will be silenced and attacked due to the over abundance of false gospels, but the age itself ends only at the 2nd coming.

LOL
That is hilarious.
Let's REVIEW the information provided
by the BIBLE (verses are cited in post #86)


(1) After the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way"
so Satan can RULE the last Saints, there can be no more church age.


(2) After the "testimony" of the church is "finished",
there can be no more church age - the Great Commission is done,
which JESUS PROMISED (Mat 28) is the "end of the age".
Do you think JESUS did not know that would happen?


(3) After the last saint has been "sealed" the church age
is finished and the Great Tribulation "Kingdom" and/or the
Revelation "Beast" begins... as in points #1 and #2 above,
both Jesus and Satan cannot be "ruling" at the same time,
which is why Satan was "bound" at the Cross. Duh!


(4) How (exactly) do you think the church age continues
when the "Little Horn" (Antichrist) "prevails against the saints"
until the "Ancient of Days" comes? That could not happen during
the church age when the saints "live and reign with Christ".


(5) How do you think the church age continues when the
"Little Horn" RULES over the (last) Saints for a period called
3.5 "times"? Again, this could never happen while the church age
existed and the saints "live and reign with Christ"... you need to
be able to harmonize ALL RELATED passages and to THINK a bit,
because Jesus and Satan cannot be RULING at the same time.
The church cannot be ruled by Satan and Jesus.


(6) See #5 above and HARMONIZE these 3.5 "times".


(7) See #5 above and HARMONIZE these 3.5 "times".


(8) See #5 above and HARMONIZE these 3.5 "times".


(9) See #5 above and HARMONIZE the EVENTS in 3.5 "days"
with the EVENTS in the 3.5 "times".


(10) See #5 and HARMONIZE the EVENTS in the 3.5 "years"
with the EVENTS in the 3.5 "times".


(11) See #5 and HARMONIZE the Events in the 3.5 "years"
with the EVENTS in the 3.5 "times".


(12) Try to HARMONIZE the "ten virgins" of Matthew 25 with
the "ten kings/horns" of Daniel 7 and the "ten kings/horns"
of Revelation 17... and then explain how these PEOPLE
"agree to give their KINGDOM to the Beast", while
they "live and reign with Christ".


Look, I am not upset that you did what I predicted would be done,
just REJECT the Scriptures rather than even TRY to REFUTE them
from the Bible. I understand all this is WAY over your head...
the Bible PROMISED that it would be [Dan 12:8-10]


However, the "fruit" of Saints contesting doctrine is NEVER to
simply say (how did you phrase it?) "... the age itself ends only
at the 2nd Coming".


If that is what you really believe (and I am sure it is because that
is what was incorrectly taught during the "church age"... just as
that is what was incorrectly taught during the Jewish Kingdom)
Then it is your RESPONSIBILITY to REFUTE each of the points
I made (#1-#11) with RELATED SCRIPTURE. It's simply not
enough to express your "feelings" and pretend that is some
kind of SUBSTITUTE for Scripture (it will never be).


If you cannot REFUTE the mysteries "revealed", then it is best
to simply remain silent - rather than to pretend that expressing
your "feelings" and having NO SCRIPTURE to support you... can
ever be taken seriously. Even people who do not claim to be
serious "Bible Students" or "teachers" or "preachers" know
they need to remain silent - if they are unable to REFUTE
a doctrine with SCRIPTURE (feelings just do not count)


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Now wait a minute. First of all you say that you’re indwelt by the Spirit; I certainly never even suggested such a thing.

Yes, I did (and do) claim to be "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit... but I fail
to see how the fact that you (and I quote) "... never even suggested
such a thing", makes any difference whatsoever.


Why would you even reply to my post if you cannot (or will not)
even address the two MAIN POINTS being discussed:


(1) Does the Bible teach those who are "indwelt" with the
Holy Spirit (and "adopted" by God) can actually KNOW this
to be the case, and


(2) Is the "gospel" of synergism the OPPOSITE of the True Gospel
of monergism and, therefore, both "another gospel" and "heresy"?
If you REALLY think that synergism and monergism are simply....
(how did you put it?) "... are simply two different understandings
of how God saves and a believer... then I would expect you to at
least TRY to "give a (Biblical) reason" for your belief... especially
after I actually addressed the fault with that "feelings" (since we
cannot really call it a "doctrine" with no support from the Bible)


Jim


PS... this may actually HELP you to "see" or accept what is
happening. Search the Bible to determine what the Last Saints
PREACH and contrast that with the preaching of the Saints during
the Christian "church age". In other words, WHAT is the last "sign"
on earth BEFORE the Lord Returns in Glory?


And I will give you a hint. It will be something that occurs during
the "time of the end" [Dan 12:8-10] or the "Season and Time"
on earth [Dan 7:11-12] or the period BETWEEN the end of the
2nd Woe - and beginning of the 3rd Woe [Rev 11:14] or in the
period BETWEEN Revelation 19:20 as the "Beast" is destroyed
(Satan's spiritual Kingdom) and Revelation 20:10 when Satan
and the "Kingdoms of Man" (Satan's physical/political Kingdom)
are sent to JOIN THE BEAST in the "Lake of Fire". Finally, it will
be an EVENT occurring as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound"
[Rev 10:7-11]


I am sorry, your church teachings cannot help you find the answer
to this question because God PROMISED that this Bible "mystery"
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to all previous Saints until
we "shall understand" at the "time of the end" or the "Season and Time". You will actually need to SEARCH all related Scriptures to find the LAST "sign" on earth before He appears - and the Resurrection occurs, and the Last Saints are "changed" into our incorruptible spiritual bodies
in the "twinkling of an eye".


.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, I did (and do) claim to be "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit... but I fail
to see how the fact that you (and I quote) "... never even suggested
such a thing", makes any difference whatsoever.

It makes a difference because it's just your opinion-as are your personal Scriptural interpretations-and from that basis you view yourself as some sort of warrior of God armed with the sword of truth. But you're not; you're just a guy with an opinion.

 

[Clare73]

No Clare, the church age ends BEFORE the Great Tribulation
and/or the Revelation Beast occurs. This is the period when the
Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" because the last saint
has been "sealed" (saved) and Satan will now RULE (by his Antichrist)
for a time called 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night"

Notice you cannot REFUTE any of the Scriptures I gave you?

Keep in mind, my Scriptures come from NT teaching, not prophecy.

But I'll throw some stuff out there.
That the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is a personal interpretation of prophecy.
It could be something else: the Roman empire, Paul's preaching the gospel, law and government, etc., and the removal of these restrainers would not mean the end of the church age.
That is the essence and sum of my view.

Biblical Truth is not LIMITED to what you understand. The Bible
talks about EVENTS AFTER THE CHURCH AGE in (literally) dozens
of verses... NONE of which you can explain. Here are just a few:

(1) How do you explain the period AFTER the Holy Spirit has
been "taken out of the way"? [2Thess 2:3,6-9] You cannot
explain it because it happens AFTER the church age is finished,
before Satan can be "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit so he
can RULE over the Last Saints.


(2) How do you explain the period AFTER the "testimony" of
the church (the 2 candlesticks and 2 Olive Trees = the church)
is been "finished"? [Rev 11:7] You cannot explain it because
it happens AFTER the Church age is finished and AFTER the
Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way"."


(3) How do you explain the period AFTER the last Saint has been
"sealed"... before the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast BEGINS?
[Rev 7:1-2] You can't explain this because it happens AFTER the
"testimony' of the church age is finished... and AFTER salvation
is finished (since the last saint is saved) and AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE over the
Last Saints, during the Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast.


(4) How do you explain how the the "Little Horn" makes war and
"prevails" against the (last) saints, until the "Ancient of Days"
comes? [Dan 7:21-22] You can't explain it because it happens
AFTER the church age is finished, AFTER the last saint is "sealed"
and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" so Satan can
RULE (through his Antichrist) during the Revelation Beast.


(5) How do you explain how the period WHEN the "Little Horn"
RULES over the last saints for 3.5 "times"? [Dan 7:24-25]
You can't explain it because it happens AFTER the church age
is finished and AFTER the last Saint is "sealed" and AFTER
the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan
can RULE during the Great Tribulation.


(6) How do you explain the period WHEN the "woman" [the bride]
is HIDDEN from the serpent for 3.5 "times"? [Rev 12:14]
You can't explain it because it's AFTER the church age is finished
and AFTER the last saint is "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE.


(7) How do you explain the period WHEN the power of the
"Holy People" is "scattered" [by the Antichrist] for 3.5 "times"?
[Dan 17:7]. You can't explain it because it happens AFTER the
church age is finished, AFTER the last saint has been "sealed"
and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" so that
Satan can RULE during the Revelation Beast.


(8) How do you explain the period WHEN the (last) saints are
"given into the hand" of the Antichrist for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7:25]. You can't explain it since it occurs AFTER the church age is finished
and AFTER h the last saint is "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been "taken out of the way" so the "Little Horn" can RULE.


(9) How do you explain the period WHEN the last saints are first "overcome" and then they are "killed" by Satan (and his Antichrist]
for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11:7-11]. You can't explain it because it occurs
AFTER the church age is finished, AFTER the (last) saint has been
"sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way",
so Satan can RULE during after being "loosened" from the
Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-2]


(10) How do you explain the period WHEN the "Holy City" is trodden
under the feet (of the Antichrist) for 42 months or 3.5 "years"
[Rev 11:1-2]. You can't explain it because it happens AFTER
the church age has been finished and AFTER the last Saint has
been "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way".


(11) How do you explain the period WHEN the Revelation Beast
is "worshiped" as "power is given to him" to RULE over everyone
(including the last saints, the Great Tribulation saints) for a period of
forty two months or 3.5 "years"? [Rev 13:4-7] You can't explain
because it happens AFTER the "testimony" of the church has been
"finished", AFTER the church age is over, and AFTER the last Saint
is "sealed", and AFTER the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"
so Satan can RULE over the last Saints for a period shown as
3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night".

Well, those 11 interpretations all rest on the restrainer being the Holy Spirit, which is subject to several interpretations.

Clare, the people called the ten "virgins" of Matthew 25:1-13 are
the last "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns. And the people called the ten "kings/horns" of Daniel 7 are also the
last "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns. And

people (again) called the ten "kings/horns" of Revelation 17 are
the "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns.
In other words, the Bible shows the last "wheat and tares"
on earth from (at least) these three different perspectives.

You view them as on earth based on the restrainer being the Holy Spirit--which is subject to several interpretations, and his removal being the end of the church age.

Rev 17:12-13
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; [during the church age] but receive
power as kings one hour with the [Revelation] Beast. These [last
wheat and tares] have one mind, and shall give their power and
strength unto the beast.


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God
shall be fulfilled.

Clare, before you can even PRETEND to understand the END
of the Church Age and the events occurring in the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1], also shown as the 7-Headed
Revelation Beast, you will need to be able to explain all the verses above.
If you cannot (and you cannot) then you only demonstrate
that you are neither capable or qualified to offer an "informed opinion"
on the events which occur AFTER the church age ENDS and AFTER
the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE
over the Last Saints. It is rally as simple as that.

My explanation is simply that they all rest on the restrainer being the Holy Spirit--which is subject to several interpretations, and his removal being the end of the church age.

It does not matter what you "feel" or what you "believe" or what
the "church" says... Harmony of Scripture is the ONLY MEASURE of
Biblical Truth and there are (literally) DOZENS of passages besides
the ones I presented above - and you cannot explain any of them.
You are REFUTED by Scripture (not by me).

Isn't your harmony based on the Holy Spirit being the restrainer, and his removal being the end of the church age?

Again, I say this with all due respect and no malice whatsoever,
you simply do not know what you are talking about when you say
the end of the church age is the end of the world.

It's the end of time, not the world. . .the new heavens and new earth remain.

Besides the verses shown above (NONE of which you can explain)
there are MANY MORE (related) verses you cannot incorporate into
your theory, like the time AFTER the Second Woe and BEFORE the
Third Woe [Rev 11:14], or the time AFTER Revelation 20:10 and
BEFORE Revelation 19:20... which is the time AFTER the Revelation Beast is "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" [Rev 20:10] and the time
when Satan and the government of the world (Kingdoms of Man)
are destroyed and JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake of Fire [Rev 19:20]

You would need to HARMONIZE all the verses I just presented
(and many others) before you could claim to be qualified or capable
of offering an "informed opinion" on the END of the Church age...
or EVENTS occurring AFTER the end of the church age.

You can (and will) DENY what I have shown you in SCRIPTURE,
but you can never REFUTE it with even one verse of Scripture...
so your "feelings" or "beliefs" about the matter mean nothing.

You know I don't claim to be qualified or capable of offering informed opinion on prophecy.
I've stated that I don't defend any interpretation of prophecy, including any that I may have.
I have nothing vested in any interpretation.

Don't take it personally, my brother. . .I'm simply pointing out that this scenario depends on the restrainer being the Holy Spirit--which is subject to several interpretations, and his removal being the end of the church age.

And being subject to several interpretations means I cannot be certain about this particular interpretation, particularly when it locates another age before the end of time, which the chronology presented in NT teaching does not allow.

It's not personal, it matters not to me one way or the other, for I have nothing vested in any interpretation.

 

[5thKingdom]

It makes a difference because it's just your opinion

You can PRETEND the Bible does not clearly teach the (real) Saints
will KNOW they are "indwelt". But you are only pretending to
yourself because the Bible clearly (and repeatedly)
contradicts your pretense.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Keep in mind, my Scriptures come from NT teaching, not prophecy.

OK Clare, I will go through this ONE LAST TIME with you.
But after this we will just have to agree to disagree because
the Bible PROMISED I will never be able to make you "see"
what has been "revealed" to the Last Saints... but we are
still COMMANDED to preach these mysteries all the same.
(Since they conclude God's revelations to this world,)


Rev 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel,
when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


And you make NO POINT when you say your understanding
comes "from NT teaching" and not prophecy. While we already
discussed the Biblical FACT that the Last Saints "shall understand"
all these things... the Bible also promises these "mysteries" would
remain "closed-up" and "sealed" during the Great Commission.


Act 1:7
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or
the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

That the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is a personal interpretation of prophecy.

No, it is what the Bible teaches. And it's not about "prophecy"
since it's ONLY the Holy Spirit that "restrains" evil (men's natural
depravity) at ALL TIMES during the history of BOTH the worlds...
both the world before the Flood - and the world after the Flood.
(#1) Notice you offer NO SCRIPTURE to support your theory.

It could be something else: the Roman empire,

Clare, you actually suggest the "restrainer" of the depravity of man
and the "restrainer" who must be "taken out of the way" before
the "Man of Sin" could be "revealed" to the Saints is some kind of
physical/political government of men? That is just hilarious.
I do not mean to disrespect you, but that is ridiculous...
and I think you already KNOW that it's ridiculous.


I will not even bother to show WHY that is so contrary to Scripture
because I know that YOU ALREADY KNOW that is just a ridiculous notion which you offer because the TRUTH has never been shown
to you before. You have no theology about the time on earth
AFTER the end of the church age.


I hope we do not spend this ENTIRE post on the FIRST point
I made (with supporting Scripture)... but I will note AGAIN,
(#2) again you offer NO SCRIPTURE to support your theories.

Paul's preaching the gospel, law and government, etc., and the removal of these restrainers would not mean the end of the church age. That is the essence and sum of my view.

Of course your "view" cannot POSSIBLY be Biblical unless it
harmonizes with ALL RELATED Scriptures about this subject.
You are DENYING instead of REBUKING and I know that
you know the difference... and you know why denial means
nothing without Scripture. (#3) this is the Third Time you
offer a theory with NO SCRIPTURE to support your notion.

Well, those 11 interpretations all rest on the restrainer being
the Holy Spirit, which is subject to several interpretations.

Not at all.


First, those 11 "interpretations" are based on SCRIPTURES
and they all HARMONIZE with each other... and with all other
RELATED Scriptures. That harmony of all related Scripture is the
very DEFINITION of Biblical Truth. If even ONE VERSE contradicts
a doctrine - that proves the doctrine is not Biblical Truth... at best,
it can only be some partial Truth. I GAVE YOU total HARMONY.
(#4) And I notice again your comments have NO SCRIPTURE.


Second, those 11 "interpretations" are NOT BASED on the
Holy Spirit being "taken out of the way"... that is you (again)
grasping at straws because you have no theology for the time
AFTER the end of the church age. Which the Bible PROMISED
(in Daniel's day) would be the case when the Last Saints
"shall understand" at the "time of the end".


And Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see all these things"
(much more than the Holy Spirit being "taken out of the way")
immediately before He Returned in Glory.


--------------------


REVIEW & REMIND


In fact, since you are arguing ONLY about the meaning of
2 Thess 2:3 and 2:6-9... let me REVIEW what other Scriptures
provide TOTAL HARMONY with the "mystery" of the "restrainer"
being "taken out of the way"... and let me REMIND you of some
of the other Scriptures which have the same CONTEXT as when
Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way".


(A) I sent you SCRIPTURE talking about the Last Saint
being "sealed" BEFORE the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast
could BEGIN [Rev 7:1-3]. Can you provide a contradictory
SCRIPTURE? Your "feelings" are just not sufficient.


(B) I sent you SCRIPTURE about the Last Saint being "sealed"
BEFORE the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast could begin...
Please tell me what SCRIPTURE teaches the church age will
continue AFTER the Last Saint is saved... and please explain
WHY the church age continues when salvation has ended?
Can you provide some SCRIPTURE teaching this theory?


(C) I sent you SCRIPTURE talking about the "testimony"
of the church being "finished" [Rev 11:7] Do you now pretend
the church age continues AFTER their "testimony" is "finished"?
Now, WHY would the church age continue after their "testimony"
is "finished"? Can you provide a contradictory SCRIPTURE to
support this theory because your "feelings" are just not sufficient.


(D) I sent you SCRIPTURE about how the "Little Horn" makes
war and "prevails" against the (last) Saints, until the "Ancient
of Days" comes [Dan 7:21-22]. Are you now teaching that the
"Little Horn" makes war and "prevails" against the Saints DURING
the church age, when the Saints "live and reign with Christ"?
Do you have any SCRIPTURE to support that theory because
your "feelings" are just not sufficient to create Biblical doctrine.


(E) I sent you SCRIPTURE about how the "Little Horn" RULES
over the (last) Saints for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7:24-25] Are you now saying Antichrist RULES over the Saints for 3.5 "times" DURING
the church age? Do you have any SCRIPTURE to support that
theory, as your "feelings" are just not sufficient to make doctrine.


(F) I sent you SCRIPTURE about the "woman" [the bride] being
HIDDEN from the serpent [Satan] for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12:14].
Are you now saying these 3.5 "times" occur in the church age?
Do you have any SCRIPTURE to support that notion because
your "feelings" are not sufficient to create doctrine.


(G) I sent you SCRIPTURE about the power of the "Holy People"
being "scattered" [by the Antichrist] for 3.5 "times" [Dan 12:7]
Are you now saying these 3.5 "times" when the "Holy People"
have their power "scattered" is DURING the church age? Do you
have any SCRIPTURE to support such a theory because your
"feelings" are not sufficient to create (or refute) doctrine.


(H) I sent you SCRIPTURE about when the Last Saints are to be
"given into the hand" of the Antichrist for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7:25]
Are you saying these 3.5 "times" are DURING the church age?
And do you have any SCRIPTURE to support such a notion because
your "feelings" are not sufficient to create (or refute) Biblical doctrine.


(I) I sent you SCRIPTURE about the Saints being "overcome" and
then "killed" by Satan (and his Antichrist) for 3.5 "days". [Rev 11]
Are you saying the Saints are "overcome" and "killed" DURING
the church age? Do you have any SCRIPTURE to support such
a teaching because your "feelings" are just not sufficient.


(J) I sent you SCRIPTURE about the "Holy City" being "trodden"
under the feet (of the Antichrist) for 42 months or 3.5 "years"
[Rev 11:1-2]. Are you saying this event, these 3.5 "years" occur
DURING the church age? Do you have any SCRIPTURE to support
such a notion because your "feelings" are just not sufficient.


(K) I sent you SCRIPTURE about the Revelation Beast being
"worshiped" and "power is given to him" to RULE everyone for
a period of 42 months or 3.5 "years" [Rev 13:4-7]. Are you
saying this 3.5 "years" occurs DURING the church age? And,
do you have any SCRIPTURE to support such a theory?


(L) The people called the ten "virgins" of Matthew 25:1-13 are
the last "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns. And the people called the ten "kings/horns" of Daniel 7 are also the
last "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns. And
people (again) called the ten "kings/horns" of Revelation 17 are
the "wheat and tares" living on earth when the Lord Returns.
In other words, the Bible shows the last "wheat and tares"
on earth from (at least) these three different perspectives.


I sent you SCRIPTURE showing these ten "Kings/Horns" have
"received no Kingdom as yet", because the prophecy was made
DURING the church age [Rev 17:12-13] but they receive their
power as Kings during the Revelation Beast (after the church age).
These "kings/horns/virgins" have "one mind" and they agree to
"give their power and strength unto the [Revelation] Beast".
In fact, [Rev 17:17] we know "For God hath put it in their
hearts to fulfil HIS WILL, and to agree, and given their
KINGDOM unto the [Revelation] Beast".


Now... are you REALLY saying this happens DURING the church age?
And what SCRIPTURE can you offer to support such a delusion, as
there is NO SCRIPTURE in the Bible that suggests the Last Saints
give the CHURCH to the Revelation Beast.

You view them as on earth based on the restrainer being the Holy Spirit--which is subject to several interpretations, and his removal being the end of the church age.

Please READ the REVIEW & REMIND section again (A thru L)
because you are only pretending to yourself BECAUSE you have
no theology to deal with the "mysteries" I am "revealing" to you.
And I have (literally) DOZENS of other verses that HARMONIZE.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

CONTINUED FROM POST #95

Isn't your harmony based on the Holy Spirit being the restrainer, and his removal being the end of the church age?

Please READ the REVIEW & REMIND section again (A thru L)
because you are only pretending to yourself BECAUSE you have
no theology to deal with the "mysteries" I am "revealing" to you.


And REMEMBER, I have (literally) DOZENS of other verses that talk
about the RULE of Satan AFTER the church age... HARMONIZING
with the "mysteries" I have already "revealed" to you. While you
have NO SCRIPTURE to defend a "theory" you cannot even begin
to articulate.... exactly as Daniel 12:8-10 PROMISED.

Don't take it personally, my brother. . .I'm simply pointing out that this scenario depends on the restrainer being the Holy Spirit

No, that is just you PRETENDING because you have no theology
able to challenge (much less refute) all the SCRIPTURES given you
... and DOZENS more I have not even "revealed" to you on EVENTS
happening AFTER the end of the church age.


Think about it, the Great Tribulation cannot BEGIN until the last saint
has been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]. In other words, the Great Tribulation
and Revelation Beast DOES NOT OCCUR til AFTER the "testimony"
of the church is "finished" [Rev 11] and salvation has been finished
(the last saint has been saved)... and Satan and the Antichrist RULE
the Last Saints for 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night".


NONE of this makes any sense occurring DURING the church age
when the SAINTS RULE WITH CHRIST. Has any church ever
taught Satan and the Antichrist RULE the Last Saints? The Bible
says exactly that in the SCRIPTURES shown above.


I understand this is NEW information to you (because it has been
"closed-up" and "sealed" until the "time of the end") but the fact
that SCRIPTURE TEACHES things beyond your understanding does
not (by any stretch of the imagination) make it less True.


You should NEVER pretend Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what you
understand.... especially when SCRIPTURE PROMISES it will be
NEW INFORMATION will be "revealed" to the Last Saints...
and the Last Saints will then PREACH these mysteries, but NONE
besides the "wise virgins" can ever "understand" these Truths.


This what SCRIPTURE says (it's in YOUR Bible), and I already
GAVE YOU the verses. But you have NO SCRIPTURE to refute
any of those verses. Which is exactly what the Bible foretold.

It's not personal, it matters not to me one way or the other, for I have nothing vested in any interpretation.

That is simply not true at all. You have a GOSPEL which you are
VERY VESTED in. What happens when you find SCRIPTURES that
destroy the CORE of your Gospel about the church age? I will tell
you what happens.... you will DENY those SCRIPTURES (because
you cannot REFUTE them) in order to PROTECT your Gospel. That
is what you are doing right now... you have not even TRIED to offer
any SCRIPTURE to refute the VERSES I give you in #A though #L
(above) and you PRETEND the ONLY issue is about the Holy Spirit
being "taken out of the way" (which you cannot even explain or
harmonize)... and not a word about the Last Saints being RULED
to the point they "give their Kingdom to the Beast".


As I said above.... this is the LAST TIME I will do this with you
(present SCRIPTURE to refute your "feelings"). If you can find
some SCRIPTURE to support your "feelings" THEN let me know.


Jim

 

[Brightfame52]

LOL
That is hilarious.
Let's REVIEW the information provided
by the BIBLE (verses are cited in post #86)


(1) After the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way"
so Satan can RULE the last Saints, there can be no more church age.


(2) After the "testimony" of the church is "finished",
there can be no more church age - the Great Commission is done,
which JESUS PROMISED (Mat 28) is the "end of the age".
Do you think JESUS did not know that would happen?


(3) After the last saint has been "sealed" the church age
is finished and the Great Tribulation "Kingdom" and/or the
Revelation "Beast" begins... as in points #1 and #2 above,
both Jesus and Satan cannot be "ruling" at the same time,
which is why Satan was "bound" at the Cross. Duh!


(4) How (exactly) do you think the church age continues
when the "Little Horn" (Antichrist) "prevails against the saints"
until the "Ancient of Days" comes? That could not happen during
the church age when the saints "live and reign with Christ".


(5) How do you think the church age continues when the
"Little Horn" RULES over the (last) Saints for a period called
3.5 "times"? Again, this could never happen while the church age
existed and the saints "live and reign with Christ"... you need to
be able to harmonize ALL RELATED passages and to THINK a bit,
because Jesus and Satan cannot be RULING at the same time.
The church cannot be ruled by Satan and Jesus.


(6) See #5 above and HARMONIZE these 3.5 "times".


(7) See #5 above and HARMONIZE these 3.5 "times".


(8) See #5 above and HARMONIZE these 3.5 "times".


(9) See #5 above and HARMONIZE the EVENTS in 3.5 "days"
with the EVENTS in the 3.5 "times".


(10) See #5 and HARMONIZE the EVENTS in the 3.5 "years"
with the EVENTS in the 3.5 "times".


(11) See #5 and HARMONIZE the Events in the 3.5 "years"
with the EVENTS in the 3.5 "times".


(12) Try to HARMONIZE the "ten virgins" of Matthew 25 with
the "ten kings/horns" of Daniel 7 and the "ten kings/horns"
of Revelation 17... and then explain how these PEOPLE
"agree to give their KINGDOM to the Beast", while
they "live and reign with Christ".


Look, I am not upset that you did what I predicted would be done,
just REJECT the Scriptures rather than even TRY to REFUTE them
from the Bible. I understand all this is WAY over your head...
the Bible PROMISED that it would be [Dan 12:8-10]


However, the "fruit" of Saints contesting doctrine is NEVER to
simply say (how did you phrase it?) "... the age itself ends only
at the 2nd Coming".


If that is what you really believe (and I am sure it is because that
is what was incorrectly taught during the "church age"... just as
that is what was incorrectly taught during the Jewish Kingdom)
Then it is your RESPONSIBILITY to REFUTE each of the points
I made (#1-#11) with RELATED SCRIPTURE. It's simply not
enough to express your "feelings" and pretend that is some
kind of SUBSTITUTE for Scripture (it will never be).


If you cannot REFUTE the mysteries "revealed", then it is best
to simply remain silent - rather than to pretend that expressing
your "feelings" and having NO SCRIPTURE to support you... can
ever be taken seriously. Even people who do not claim to be
serious "Bible Students" or "teachers" or "preachers" know
they need to remain silent - if they are unable to REFUTE
a doctrine with SCRIPTURE (feelings just do not count)


Jim

You self refuted.

 

[5thKingdom]

You self refuted.

LOL

I presented SCRIPTURES.

They cannot be "refuted" unless YOU PRESENT Scriptures
that contradict my Scriptures...

And you can't do that. So you are in DENIAL,
that is totally different than refuting Scriptures.

Jim

 

[Brightfame52]

LOL

I presented SCRIPTURES.

They cannot be "refuted" unless YOU PRESENT Scriptures
that contradict my Scriptures...

And you can't do that. So you are in DENIAL,
that is totally different than refuting Scriptures.

Jim

Thats how i know you self refuted.

 

[5thKingdom]

Thats how i know you self refuted.

WOW... whatever.

.