tdidymas
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Your analogy still doesn't fit, because they surrendered under duress, and they are still the enemy. In God's kingdom, the ones He saves are His friends, not His enemies any more. These are the only ones who surrender to Him, since that's a spiritual matter.
1Co 1:27-29 "but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God."
Can you see that God is treating some differently than others? Can you see that when men are full of ego, pride, knowledge, etc. which the world considers as regarding a high self-esteem, that God shames those people by saving the poor, the foolish, the uneducated, the ignoble, etc.? Well, those people don't feel shamed, but they certainly will be in the day of judgment.
v. 30-31 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”"
And here Paul seals the idea by saying that our being in Christ is "His doing." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that our faith in Christ is not "our doing."
There are some things lacking in your analogy:
1. The son is in the family, so he would naturally be treated differently than a stranger.
2. The father knows the son, but doesn't know the stranger, so it is highly unlikely they be treated the same.
3. If the son refused to work with the father, it is highly unlikely that the father would send the son to jail.
4. Sin against God is a rebellion against the ultimate just and holy one, unlike some man committing vandalism against another. Therefore, the just responses are unequal.
5. What the son did was in a hot fit of anger, a crime of passion. What the neighbor did was in cold-hearted premeditated hate. Unequal crimes requiring unequal responses.
6. The hate of the neighbor puts him at a disadvantage from reconciliation, seeing that he makes himself an enemy, in contrast to the son who is willing to participate in the restoration because he already loves his father and believes in him.
Need I go on?
I think I see what you are trying to say, but it doesn't fit in Rom. 9. God still has mercy on whomever He pleases, and it doesn't depend on what is in man. God's sovereignty in salvation is the point of that chapter. If 2 neighbors did the same thing, and they were both equal in unfriendliness, would you think yourself unjust if you had mercy on one and not the other? The difference in your actions would be considered whimsical or capricious, but God's ways are higher than ours. Since God is the creator, He has the right to condemn one for his sin and have mercy on another.
Ok, so it appears you do believe in unmerited grace, but it appears contradictory to what you said earlier, in which I am pointing out that what you say appears like merited grace.
No, I disagree. Paul writes that there are sins in which people will not inherit the kingdome of God - that is, eternal life. This presumes that some people in the church who reads this or hears it read are hypocrites who need a call to repentance. It's the same today.
For support of my idea I am using Rom. 3:10-18, Eph. 2:12, 1 Cor. 1:21, Rom. 8:7, Deu. 32:41, Prov. 8:36, and many others. The whole problem with your "humbly accept pure charity" idea is that it requires faith in God and some level of love for God already before one is willing and able to do it. The unregenerate don't believe, since that's a spiritual matter. It takes an act of God to get them to faith in order to do what you say here.
TD
Soldiers that surrender can take “gifts” (like food, clothes and shelter) from their enemy, but with God the gifts are unbelievably huge.
Your analogy still doesn't fit, because they surrendered under duress, and they are still the enemy. In God's kingdom, the ones He saves are His friends, not His enemies any more. These are the only ones who surrender to Him, since that's a spiritual matter.
Please help me! I am not finding anything in 1 Cor.1 where God is treating anyone differently in the area that truly matters (salvation). No one is going to be able to say: I used my wisdom, smarts, knowledge, money, and connections to become a Christian. The lowliest mature adult on earth can but their trust in a benevolent Creator, so for the noble, powerful, rich, wise, educated to trust in a benevolent Creator is a humbling act which anyone can do (equality). Who has the advantage? Some people think my problems would be solved if I: was smarter, healthier, wiser, richer and had better connections, but those that have those things can also see the lack of security in those things, so who comes out ahead? The poor have the advantage of being more willing to accept pure charity, but the rich and smarter have the advantage of knowing they need something spiritual since carnal things do not solve their anxiety.
1Co 1:27-29 "but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God."
Can you see that God is treating some differently than others? Can you see that when men are full of ego, pride, knowledge, etc. which the world considers as regarding a high self-esteem, that God shames those people by saving the poor, the foolish, the uneducated, the ignoble, etc.? Well, those people don't feel shamed, but they certainly will be in the day of judgment.
v. 30-31 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”"
And here Paul seals the idea by saying that our being in Christ is "His doing." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that our faith in Christ is not "our doing."
I am not suggesting justice and mercy are the same, where did you get that idea? No, mercy is not an “exception to justice”! As a parent I want to be very merciful and yet very equal in justice toward my children. That does not mean I treat them exactly the same way every time, since they have different personalities and temperament. I am not perfect with this, but I am not God.
Think about this:
There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.
Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?
Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?
What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?
Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So, was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?
Did your father show a merciful Love for the neighbor?
How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?
Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?
There are some things lacking in your analogy:
1. The son is in the family, so he would naturally be treated differently than a stranger.
2. The father knows the son, but doesn't know the stranger, so it is highly unlikely they be treated the same.
3. If the son refused to work with the father, it is highly unlikely that the father would send the son to jail.
4. Sin against God is a rebellion against the ultimate just and holy one, unlike some man committing vandalism against another. Therefore, the just responses are unequal.
5. What the son did was in a hot fit of anger, a crime of passion. What the neighbor did was in cold-hearted premeditated hate. Unequal crimes requiring unequal responses.
6. The hate of the neighbor puts him at a disadvantage from reconciliation, seeing that he makes himself an enemy, in contrast to the son who is willing to participate in the restoration because he already loves his father and believes in him.
Need I go on?
I think I see what you are trying to say, but it doesn't fit in Rom. 9. God still has mercy on whomever He pleases, and it doesn't depend on what is in man. God's sovereignty in salvation is the point of that chapter. If 2 neighbors did the same thing, and they were both equal in unfriendliness, would you think yourself unjust if you had mercy on one and not the other? The difference in your actions would be considered whimsical or capricious, but God's ways are higher than ours. Since God is the creator, He has the right to condemn one for his sin and have mercy on another.
“Pure Charity” differs from lots of other so-called charitable acts. It is real charity (unconditional, undeserved and really sacrificial.
Ok, so it appears you do believe in unmerited grace, but it appears contradictory to what you said earlier, in which I am pointing out that what you say appears like merited grace.
The tares were not Christians and Paul is addressing only Christians and not just anyone who shows up at the meeting place.
No, I disagree. Paul writes that there are sins in which people will not inherit the kingdome of God - that is, eternal life. This presumes that some people in the church who reads this or hears it read are hypocrites who need a call to repentance. It's the same today.
You are not present good scripture support for your conclusion that: sinner cannot "humbly accept pure charity", like we are all called upon to do. It is not just to call upon us to do something we cannot make happen? Yes, we will need help to do the stuff, but that help is up to us allowing God to help us.
For support of my idea I am using Rom. 3:10-18, Eph. 2:12, 1 Cor. 1:21, Rom. 8:7, Deu. 32:41, Prov. 8:36, and many others. The whole problem with your "humbly accept pure charity" idea is that it requires faith in God and some level of love for God already before one is willing and able to do it. The unregenerate don't believe, since that's a spiritual matter. It takes an act of God to get them to faith in order to do what you say here.
TD
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