Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

jahel · Jan 13, 2020

Hammster said:
Sure.

I can say, with Paul, that Christ loved me and gave Himself for me. Your view has Christ dying for a plan, or idea. There’s nothing personal about it.

Maybe it is to Him.

St_Worm2 · Jan 13, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Good grief I sound like a Calvinist...

Hello again Charlie, I feel your pain brother, truly I do, but at least you have an out, while I'm stuck with mine. The question is, did I choose it, or was it predestined for me

Charlie24 said:
But when he hears the gospel, I said, but when he hears the gospel of our salvation, man has no choice but to make a choice. He cannot ignore it! He will accept or reject. This is the call of "whosoever will."

I agree with you (for the most part), but what has changed Since neither Jew nor non-Jew seeks God (as St. Paul posits for us in Romans 3:9-12), then "whosoever will" must mean "no one will". NONE will choose to accept/ALL will choose to reject.

We are (even us Christians), "children of wrath" until God changes us, until He quickens us/makes us alive spiritually, yes .. e.g. Ephesians 2:1-5?

Thanks!

--David

redleghunter · Jan 13, 2020

Charlie24 said:
This is the call of "whosoever will."

Depends on if “whosoever” has ears that hear and eyes that see.

Hammster · Jan 13, 2020

Charlie24 said:
He did die for a plan, the one He and His Father planned before the foundation of the world when they knew man would fall and would have no hope.

God ordained that plan for man, His Son carried it out with His life on the cross.

And He said, "whosoever will" call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

He didn’t die for a plan.

She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
— Matthew 1:21

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep....My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10

Charlie24 · Jan 13, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Hello again Charlie, I feel your pain brother, truly I do, but at least you have an out, while I'm stuck with mine. The question is, did I choose it, or was it predestined for me

I agree with you (for the most part), but what has changed Since neither Jew nor non-Jew seeks God (as St. Paul posits for us in Romans 3:9-12), then "whosoever will" must mean "no one will". NONE will choose to accept/ALL will choose to reject.

We are (even us Christians), "children of wrath" until God changes us, until He quickens us/makes us alive spiritually, yes .. e.g. Ephesians 2:1-5?

Thanks!

--David

The Calvinists do have a twist on words. They seem to make it complicated when it's not.

You have been predestined for the plan. You must make the choice when the Gospel is heard, to be in the plan.

Whosoever will, is anyone who chooses Christ and enters the plan.

God has predestined you for His plan, He wants you in His plan for man, but the choice to be in the plan is left to you.

Charlie24 · Jan 13, 2020

Hammster said:
He didn’t die for a plan.

She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
— Matthew 1:21

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep....My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10

OK, if you say so.

Hammster · Jan 13, 2020

expos4ever said:
Don’t follow the reasoning. True the other poster’s words were not the best when he or she referred to a “plan”. But if God really offers salvation to all persons, surely this is “personal”.

How is it personal?

Hammster · Jan 13, 2020

Charlie24 said:
OK, if you say so.

Scripture does, any way.

redleghunter · Jan 13, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
It's a simple question, which requires a simple, Yes or No, answer.

No.

Once again “Let God be God”

“Let God be God”

Charlie24 · Jan 13, 2020

Hammster said:
Scripture does, any way.

That's fine with me, I have no problem with it.

This doesn't determine our salvation, we are brothers in Christ.

We just disagree on doctrine.

jahel · Jan 13, 2020

Just out of curiosity what is the difference between Calvinists and Armenians besides the 2 sides of OSAS?

St_Worm2 · Jan 13, 2020

Calvinists are normally better looking

jahel · Jan 13, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Calvinists are normally better looking

lol

LiquidCat · Jan 13, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
It's a simple question, which requires a simple, Yes or No, answer.

Yes

St_Worm2 · Jan 13, 2020

jahel said:
Just out of curiosity what is the difference between Calvinists and Armenians besides the 2 sides of OSAS?

This could help. It has a nifty video and everything (or you can just read it .. as the words are exactly the same): Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct? | GotQuestions.org

--David
p.s. - Arminius had this to say about Calvin and his commentaries, just FYI.

“Next to the study of the Scriptures which I earnestly inculcate, I exhort my pupils to peruse Calvin’s Commentaries, which I extol in loftier terms than Helmich himself [a Dutch divine, 1551–1608]; for I affirm that he excels beyond comparison in the interpretation of Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued than all that is handed down to us by the library of the fathers; so that I acknowledge him to have possessed above most others, or rather above all other men, what may be called an eminent spirit of prophecy.”

― Jacobus Arminius

jahel · Jan 13, 2020

It was a serious question tho. Because Lutherans and Baptists all seem to line up behind one or the other ism.
Sorry for my lack of knowledge of denominational hoey but I never studied the counterfeits.

jahel · Jan 13, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
This could help. It has a video and everything (or you can just read it .. as the words are exactly the same): Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct? | GotQuestions.org

I meant in comparison to others.

St_Worm2 · Jan 13, 2020

Sorry Jahel (or, "the artist formally known as Cassia" ), do you mean how do Arminians and Calvinists differ on the other 4 points (IOW, other than OSAS), or did you mean something else?

Here are the 5 points of Calvinism, for instance. I could compare them with Arminianisms 5 points if you'd like me to.

T - Total Depravity
U- Unconditional Election
L - Limited Atonement
I - Irresistible Grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints (referred to as OSAS, mostly by non-Calvinists)

--David

tdidymas · Jan 13, 2020

1. If I make a choice to believe the gospel (and, obviously to obey it), I am making a RIGHTEOUS choice, since we are justified by faith, and Paul calls this THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD by which we are acceptable in God's sight.

2. If I make this choice all by my lonesome (without God pushing or pulling), then it means that I had some righteousness in me, in contrast with Paul's declaration that no one is righteous, and no one understands. Otherwise, how could I make such a righteous decision in the sight of God? This would have to mean that when Paul said we were dead in sin, we weren't really that dead.

3. If my natural free-will is the deciding factor, then it has the power of righteousness to make a righteous choice. This choice then becomes the righteousness of me, in contrast with the righteousness of God. And if my natural free-will has the power of righteousness before God, then why do I need a Savior, except just for a little help?

4. And who prepared me to receive the gospel (in contrast to those who reject it)? Was it my natural working of curiosity and investigation? Was it my natural reasoning that got me the wisdom to believe and obey? Yet Paul says it is spiritually discerned, and this is in contrast to natural reasoning.

The obvious conclusion, then, is that God had to do something to me, apart from my so-called knowledge, experience, and self-inflated ego. God was at work when I was fat, dumb, and happy living my wicked life. God rearranged my thoughts, attitude, and yes, even my will. God was the one who forced me to surrender to the gospel. It wasn't my "free will" since its work was to hate God and reject what He was about. It was a supernatural act of God to make me a spiritual man who understood and believed the gospel to hope in Christ. I then became one of the "whosoever will."

The short answer is "NO." But after the fact, God has my 'permission' (i.e. my request) to do anything He wants with me.
TD

P.S. Jimmy, why didn't you make it a poll? It would be an easy way to show the statistics of the responses.

jahel · Jan 14, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Sorry Jahel (or, "the artist formally known as Cassia" ), do you mean how do Arminians and Calvinists differ on the other 4 points (IOW, other than OSAS), or did you mean something else?

Here are the 5 points of Calvinism, for instance. I could compare them with Arminianisms 5 points if you'd like me to.

T - Total Depravity
U- Unconditional Election
L - Limited Atonement
I - Irresistible Grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints (referred to as OSAS, mostly by non-Calvinists)

--David

Nvrmnd, never could follow denomination threads. ’Tis ok.

Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

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