Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

corinth77777 · Jan 22, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
So, He consults with the clay before He acts. Got it.

Permission may not be the best word...but what is He saving the person from should be the first question. Obedience and keeping His command are how we fall into His will.
And God acts according to His will. GOD did not make us people without freewill so He would act without us....doesn't that go against His creation? Since God is predicated based on Himself, as the self existing one, and the "I am that I am"
Why would God go against the intentions of His own creation. The key is for His will to be our will. And it seems we find the process of shaping the will out, when we realize we need Him when we are allowed by our own will of free choice to be able to not choose Him.

Hammster · Jan 22, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
If their stubbornness is the cause of their condemnation then it’s pretty obvious that their cooperation is required.

Required for what exactly?

fhansen · Jan 22, 2020

Hammster said:
What you’re saying, then, is that they took verses out of context and built a theology around that. Not much has changed.

Hmm, no, that was the Reformers thing-when things did change. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura caused more confusion and disagreement within Christian ranks (between SS adherents themselves) than had ever occurred in the past. The theology of the ancient churches, east and west, was actually received and proclaimed before a word of the New Testament was written.

Hammster · Jan 22, 2020

fhansen said:
Hmm, no, that was the Reformers thing-when things did change. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura caused more confusion and disagreement within Christian ranks (between SS adherents thenselves) than had ever occurred in the past.

You said “They know that God loves all and desires none to perish“, which right off the bat is taking a verse out of context. So if that’s the foundation, then everything that follows is not going to be correct.

corinth77777 · Jan 22, 2020

corinth77777 said:
Permission may not be the best word...but what is He saving the person from should be the first question. Obedience and keeping His command are how we fall into His will.
And God acts according to His will. GOD did not make us people without freewill so He would act without us....doesn't that go against His creation? Since God is predicated based on Himself, as the self existing one, and the "I am that I am"
Why would God go against the intentions of His own creation. The key is for His will to be our will. And it seems we find the process of shaping the will out, when we realize we need Him when we are allowed by our own will of free choice to be able to not choose Him.

you.

Matthew 6:10 - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

corinth77777 · Jan 22, 2020

Hammster said:
You said “They know that God loves all and desires none to perish“, which right off the bat is taking a verse out of context. So if that’s the foundation, then everything that follows is not going to be correct.

But doesn't scripture say He would that no one perish?

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

BNR32FAN · Jan 22, 2020

Hammster said:
Required for what exactly?

What were we talking about?

BNR32FAN said:
Well if their own stubbornness is building up the righteous wrath of God upon them then it is quite clear that God desires our cooperation in order to receive salvation.

fhansen · Jan 22, 2020

corinth77777 said:
Which are the laws of Love, Faith, Spirit and life?

Yes, summed up best by the Greatest Commandments IMO. Love is the only real source of righteousness for man and was always meant to be the authentic motivation for man's obedience, just as it's the motivation behind the actions of God, the very Source of love. Love encompasses faith and hope and is the chief and most important product of the Spirit's work in us.

fhansen · Jan 22, 2020

Hammster said:
You said “They know that God loves all and desires none to perish“, which right off the bat is taking a verse out of context. So if that’s the foundation, then everything that follows is not going to be correct.

No, the Christian church knows this to be true simply because the church knows God, Whom she met two some millennia ago. And Scripture, naturally, agrees.

Hammster · Jan 22, 2020

corinth77777 said:
But doesn't scripture say He would that no one perish?

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If you look at the context, the “us” are His elect. Otherwise, He’ll never return.

Hammster · Jan 22, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
What were we talking about?

What aspect of salvation? Regeneration? Justification? Sanctification? Glorification?

Hammster · Jan 22, 2020

fhansen said:
No, the Christian church knows this to be true simply because the church knows God, Whom she met two some millennia ago. And Scripture, naturally, agrees.

That’s pretty ambiguous.

fhansen · Jan 22, 2020

Hammster said:
That’s pretty ambiguous.

Not really. The continuous understanding of the church often resolves conflicts where Scripture appears vague or ambiguous or even contradictory at times.

Hammster · Jan 22, 2020

fhansen said:
Not really. The continuous understanding of the church often resolves conflicts where Scripture appears vague or ambiguous or even contradictory at times.

Which is fine. But there’s nothing vague about justification, sanctification, etc. Rome just has it wrong.

Neogaia777 · Jan 22, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
It's a simple question, which requires a simple, Yes or No, answer.

I know of very few people who are saved against their will who do not eventually before the end of their life turn or steer toward doing His will in their lives, before the end of it/them anyway, not that any man or mere human should judge (another human) (in those matters) though...

God Bless!

fhansen · Jan 22, 2020

Hammster said:
Which is fine. But there’s nothing vague about justification, sanctification, etc. Rome just has it wrong.

No, Rome has it right-just happens to. Studying the decrees of the Council of Trent on justification, session 6, is very edifying IMO. The church set out to consider the various doctrines on justification very seriously at that time, during the beginning of the Reformation. One must ignore certain language, mainly the anathemas, used during very non-ecumenical times.

Hammster · Jan 22, 2020

fhansen said:
No, Rome has it right-just happens to. Studying the decrees of the Council of Trent on justification, session 6, is very edifying IMO. The church set out to consider the various doctrines on justification very seriously at that time, during the beginning of the Reformation. One must ignore certain language, mainly the anathemas, used during very non-ecumenical times.

Why must one ignore the anathemas?

jimmyjimmy · Jan 22, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I think Romans 2 answers this question quite well.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

How does that answer my question?

BBAS 64 · Jan 22, 2020

corinth77777 said:
Permission may not be the best word...but what is He saving the person from should be the first question. Obedience and keeping His command are how we fall into His will.
And God acts according to His will. GOD did not make us people without freewill so He would act without us....doesn't that go against His creation? Since God is predicated based on Himself, as the self existing one, and the "I am that I am"
Why would God go against the intentions of His own creation. The key is for His will to be our will. And it seems we find the process of shaping the will out, when we realize we need Him when we are allowed by our own will of free choice to be able to not choose Him.

Good Day, Corinth777

Can you comment on this passage given your view that God some how values our free-will above his own?

Gen 20:6Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

In Him,

Bill

fhansen · Jan 22, 2020

Hammster said:
Why must one ignore the anathemas?

"Ignore" might not be the best term but in any case we need to distance ourselves from emotional reactions so that we can study the actual points involved. You may already have that kind of objectivity while others may not. Either way the church today is just as adamant about the correct understanding of justification while not using language that might come off as pejorative or unnecessary in today's climate.

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