Does God love everyone or just his sheep?

[Strong in Him]

Looks like we agree to disagree. We don't place conditions on God's love; rather he does it.

He doesn't, but obviously I'm not going to be able to persuade you of that; even with Scripture.

Obedience is key. If you choose to not believe that then that is certainly your prerogative.

Likewise.
I'd hate to constantly have to think, "have I obeyed God 100% in all my thoughts, words and actions? If not, then he can't love me".
Maybe that's not what you're saying, but it sounds like it. I'd hate to live with that uncertainty, and I am sorry for you if you do. John wrote his first epistle so that his readers would KNOW that they had eternal life; count how many times he uses the word 'know'. He does not say "he who has the Son has life - on the condition of continued obedience". Neither does he say "God is love, but he rations that love and will only give it under certain conditions."

 

[bekkilyn]

Do you really believe God loves us unconditionally whether we love him back or not? A believer who backslides and lives in chronic unrepentant sin. Is not repentance a condition that is now required of him in order to regain God's love and forgiveness? Yes or no? If this backslidder does not repent, he dies in his sins and ends up in the lake of fire where he is subjected to God's wrath and is thus tormented forever. Yet you claim that God still loves him? That may fit with your concept of God's love but it certainly does not fit mine.

Yes, God loves us unconditionally whether we love him back or not.

 

[Oldmantook]

He doesn't, but obviously I'm not going to be able to persuade you of that; even with Scripture.

You haven't shown me anything in Scripture that supports your view but that is fine as it's your opinion. Obviously our opinions differ.

Likewise.
I'd hate to constantly have to think, "have I obeyed God 100% in all my thoughts, words and actions? If not, then he can't love me".
Maybe that's not what you're saying, but it sounds like it. I'd hate to live with that uncertainty, and I am sorry for you if you do. John wrote his first epistle so that his readers would KNOW that they had eternal life; count how many times he uses the word 'know'. He does not say "he who has the Son has life - on the condition of continued obedience". Neither does he say "God is love, but he rations that love and will only give it under certain conditions."

I wonder why you have to resort to a red herring argument? I have written nothing whatsoever that states that obedience means 100% obedience. All sin and whoever claims he is without sin deceives himself according to 1 John 1. You fail to read the scriptures carefully where they distinguish between occasional sin and the practice of sin. You also fail to account for Heb 5:9 where it plainly states that ongoing obedience is requisite for eternal life. For you to claim that the condition of continued obedience is unnecessary obviously contradicts this scripture. You also failed to account for the Greek verb tenses in the verse you cite to support your view. 1 Jn 5:12 - "The one who has (echōn | ἔχων | pres act ptcp nom sg masc) the Son has (echei | ἔχει | pres act ind 3 sg) life; the one (echōn | ἔχων | pres act ptcp nom sg masc) who (echōn | ἔχων | pres act ptcp nom sg masc) does (echōn | ἔχων| pres act ptcp nom sg masc) not have (echōn | ἔχων | pres act ptcp nom sg masc) the Son of God does (echei | ἔχει| pres act ind 3 sg) not have (echei | ἔχει | pres act ind 3 sg) life.
The Greek participles echōn and echei are rendered in the present tense which indicates action that is presently occurring. Therefore it should read "The one having the Son has life/is having life...." The Greek present tense only indicates that the action of having the Son is presently occurring with no guarantee that this action will continue on into the future. Ironically this verse proves the opposite of what you believe in that we are having the Son only as long as we remain in Him. John 15:7 states IF YOU REMAIN in me... which indicates the possibility that in he future, a believer may choose not to remain in Christ. And at that point - he no longer has the Son and therefore - he no longer has life. Scripture interprets scripture.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes, God loves us unconditionally whether we love him back or not.

It is fine for you to believe that God loves even those in the lake of fire whom He directs his wrath at and torments endlessly. That is like saying an earthly dad still loves his child despite continuously and unendingly tormenting his child. If that fits your definition of unconditional love you are certainly entitled to it. I'll stop replying at this point as that doesn't fit my definition of unconditional love.

 

[bekkilyn]

It is fine for you to believe that God loves even those in the lake of fire whom He directs his wrath at and torments endlessly. That is like saying an earthly dad still loves his child despite continuously and unendingly tormenting his child. If that fits your definition of unconditional love you are certainly entitled to it. I'll stop replying at this point as that doesn't fit my definition of unconditional love.

The problem with your claim though is that if God doesn't unconditionally love us, then he would no longer be perfect, and if he is not perfect when it comes to love, then it would also imply that he has flaws in other areas as well, and then how are we to trust him or believe his promises? Everything about him would be a lie.

And I think that's the sort of thing that Satan wants us to believe, wanting us to doubt God's perfection, to put limits on God's goodness and power.

 

[Strong in Him]

You haven't shown me anything in Scripture that supports your view but that is fine as it's your opinion. Obviously our opinions differ.

I have, but it seems you don't want to hear it.
I've said that love is eternal and never gives up, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. I've said that Jesus told his disciples not to love only those who loved them, as even the pagans can do that, but to be perfect as God is perfect, Matthew 5:43-48. I gave the example of the Prodigal Son where the father stood witching for his son and then hugged and kissed him BEFORE he had given his speech of repentance. And I've said, several times, that God is love.

I wonder why you have to resort to a red herring argument? I have written nothing whatsoever that states that obedience means 100% obedience.

You have said that if obedience is the key to receiving life and God's love.
So we don't have to obey completely? At what point do we lose God's love then? If we are disobedient 3, 5 or 8% of the time does God say "it's only a small amount; I'll make an exception"?

All sin and whoever claims he is without sin deceives himself according to 1 John 1.

Yes, agreed.

You fail to read the scriptures carefully where they distinguish between occasional sin and the practice of sin.

No, I agree with that. I have often argued that point with another person on this forum who claims that if we sin even once, that's it. It's not.
But you said;

This verse contains the word "if" which makes this a conditional sentence. The "if" clause specifies a condition (ongoing obedience) that must be fulfilled by the believer in order for God to have a loving/abiding relationship.

If someone is continually obedient to God, God will love him. This appears to have been your previous argument - i.e God's love is conditional upon our obedience.
Now you are saying that we don't need to be obedient 100% of the time. But if someone disobeys God 2% of the time, and continues to do so, then they are living in disobedience. Even if it's only a tiny thing like a failure to do/say something that God wants us to do or say. If God constantly tells us to do it, not do it, not say it etc and we disobey - that is practicing, and living continually in, sin.
So by your argument, God will not love that person.

You also fail to account for Heb 5:9 where it plainly states that ongoing obedience is requisite for eternal life.

If that's how you read Heb 5:9 then you need to reconcile it with verses such as John 6:40 where Jesus talks about receiving eternal life, without any conditions attached.

The author of Hebrews is not saying "Jesus only gives eternal life to those who obey him". That would contradict the rest of Scripture which says that there is nothing we can do to earn God's love, grace or salvation. We are not saved by works but by God's grace.

For you to claim that the condition of continued obedience is unnecessary obviously contradicts this scripture.

If we have to obey God continually in order to receive his love and eternal life, that means all the time - 100% Yet you've just said that we don't have to obey him 100% of the time, and that you have never written anything which claims that we do.

So which is it? Continual obedience, or 97% obedience; allowing for the occasional slip up?

May continue later; I need to go out.

 

[Oldmantook]

I have, but it seems you don't want to hear it.
I've said that love is eternal and never gives up, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. I've said that Jesus told his disciples not to love only those who loved them, as even the pagans can do that, but to be perfect as God is perfect, Matthew 5:43-48. I gave the example of the Prodigal Son where the father stood witching for his son and then hugged and kissed him BEFORE he had given his speech of repentance. And I've said, several times, that God is love.

As you know the the prodigal son was spiritually dead. Spiritual death by definition is separation from God and his love. So how can the father love his son when he is spiritually dead? As my seminary theology professor once said, not all details in a parable have significance. The fact the father waited for his son to come home is a minor detail in my opinion although it is not in your mind. However for the sake of argument let me examine your claim based on when the prodigal gave his repentance speech. It is irrelevant when the son gave his repentance speech. The reason being is that in the prodigal's mind he had already repented - v.18. The scriptural definition of repentance is from the word metanoia which means a change of mind. Thus the prodigal repented before his father even greeted him. No need for the father to wait for his speech as he had already repented (changed mind) and therefore the father could love now him before he even said anything. In my opinion, this parable remains problematic for you.

You have said that if obedience is the key to receiving life and God's love.
So we don't have to obey completely? At what point do we lose God's love then? If we are disobedient 3, 5 or 8% of the time does God say "it's only a small amount; I'll make an exception"?

Why do you quantify sin when the scriptures don't do it? Don't you think you can assess when you make a practice of sinning? Don't you think the Holy Spirit will convict you when you start practicing sin? So why ask me? If you or me or any other believer had a inappropriate contentography habit do you think you would quantify it in percentages? Or - would we just admit that we are practicing a sin and therefore living according to the flesh and our sinful desires? When we stand before God I don't think he'll be dealing with percentages. Paul's admonition in Rom 8:13 is plain enough for me: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

If someone is continually obedient to God, God will love him. This appears to have been your previous argument - i.e God's love is conditional upon our obedience.
Now you are saying that we don't need to be obedient 100% of the time. But if someone disobeys God 2% of the time, and continues to do so, then they are living in disobedience. Even if it's only a tiny thing like a failure to do/say something that God wants us to do or say. If God constantly tells us to do it, not do it, not say it etc and we disobey - that is practicing, and living continually in, sin.
So by your argument, God will not love that person.

God cannot love that person as he/she is in willful, chronic sin or practicing sin. If he/she repents God's love toward him/her is restored. If you knew God wanted you to do/say something, why wouldn't you do it - even if in your mind it is a "tiny thing?" In God's mind perhaps it is a big thing - one never knows. Isn't it better to be assured then remain in doubt? "Beloved, if our heart should not condemn us, we have confidence toward God" (1 Jn 3:21).

If that's how you read Heb 5:9 then you need to reconcile it with verses such as John 6:40 where Jesus talks about receiving eternal life, without any conditions attached.

The author of Hebrews is not saying "Jesus only gives eternal life to those who obey him". That would contradict the rest of Scripture which says that there is nothing we can do to earn God's love, grace or salvation. We are not saved by works but by God's grace.

You have committed a logical fallacy known as a false dichotomy. Jn 6:40 refers to believing which is requisite for eternal life. Heb 5:9 refers to obeying which is also requisite for eternal life. Your logical fallacy is that you have chosen to reduce it to one requirement i.e., belief while completely ignoring obedience. You have made it an either/or argument when in fact the scriptures refer to BOTH belief and obedience as necessary for salvation. If I recall correctly, didn't you agree that living according to the flesh (disobedience) results in spiritual death? If you don't believe obedience is necessary that I'm sure you wouldn't have any problem with accepting the mark of the beast would you?

If we have to obey God continually in order to receive his love and eternal life, that means all the time - 100% Yet you've just said that we don't have to obey him 100% of the time, and that you have never written anything which claims that we do.

So which is it? Continual obedience, or 97% obedience; allowing for the occasional slip up?

May continue later; I need to go out.

You should read the scriptures for yourself instead of playing the percentage game. Are not the scriptures self-explanatory?
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 1 Jn 1:7
You don't see any quantities or percentages here do you? Instead you see John specify a QUALITY that should be characteristic of a believer's life - that is - walking in the light. IF makes this verse a conditional sentence. IF a believer chooses to generally live an obedient (not perfect since we all sin) life to God, then he can be said to be walking in the light. IF he does so, then this verse assures him that Jesus' blood cleanses when he does commit sin. In contrast a believer who chooses to live a life marked by disobedience cannot be said to be walking in the light. Instead he walks in darkness and does not even have fellowship with God. 1 Jn 1:6

 

[Strong in Him]

Well like I said, we're not going to agree.

Personally I wouldn't want to tell God what he can't do.

 

[Oldmantook]

Well like I said, we're not going to agree.

Personally I wouldn't want to tell God what he can't do.

Indeed; we agree to disagree. We can't tell God what he can do but he can certainly tell us what we should do and therein lies the difference.