Does God know/see the future?

[cb]

doc,

what do you think of this?

What if you taped a football game. Then decided to watch it later. No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to get the final score to change. It has be determined already. However, this does not mean that during the course of that game, the players were not free. From God's perspective (since he is omniscient) everything has been for-knonw or determined already. that doesn't mean that we aren't free to make the choices we do.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by cb
You haven't answered my question, Souljah, please see above.

Yes I have, and its the same thing you are saying with your football tape analogy!

 

[DrLao]

Originally posted by cb
What if you taped a football game. Then decided to watch it later. No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to get the final score to change. It has be determined already. However, this does not mean that during the course of that game, the players were not free. From God's perspective (since he is omniscient) everything has been for-knonw or determined already. that doesn't mean that we aren't free to make the choices we do.

It is different because I didn't create the football players or give them the ability to choose. If I created the game whole cloth and knew what the outcome was going to be as I created it and had the ability to choose whatever outcome I wished, then the players would have no choice.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by DrLao
knew what the outcome was going to be as I created it

"Was going to be"...linear time...you are thinking as a human.

 

[DrLao]

Originally posted by cb
It has to do with the difference between force and choice. does God force me to make the choices that i will? no. does he allow me to make the choices? yes.

If God created the universe, and had knowledge of what decisions I would make as He created it, and could affect the outcome of those decisions as He created it, then free will is just an illusion. We are playing out God's script.

I don't fully (and any who says they do is full of bunk) understand the logistics of this. I do know the bible says that God is sovereign and that we are responsible for the choices we make in life.

That seems like a contradiction to me.

 

[cb]

Soul-

to be quite honest, i don't really understand what you are talking about. maybe doc can explain it if he understands.
I have a few questions that will help me clarify:

Do you believe that God knows everything that has and will happen? That he is aware of all things: past, present and future?

Do you believe that God allows these things to happen, that he knew from eternity past exactly who carrie bradley was, and what she would choose?

Do you believe not that God lives in the eternal present, but that ALL time is the eternal present for him?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Do you believe that God knows everything that has and will happen? That he is aware of all things: past, present and future?

Yep

Do you believe that God allows these things to happen, that he knew from eternity past exactly who carrie bradley was, and what she would choose?

Yep.

Do you believe not that God lives in the eternal present, but that ALL time is the eternal present for him?

No, time is a function of space, as Einstein demonstrated. He is outside of human contraints of space/time.

 

[cb]

Originally posted by DrLao
It is different because I didn't create the football players or give them the ability to choose. If I created the game whole cloth and knew what the outcome was going to be as I created it and had the ability to choose whatever outcome I wished, then the players would have no choice.

Are you saying that God was a fool to allow us the responsiblity to determine our own destiny? That he should have tweaked the universe so that every single individual would choose God? Isn't this contradictory to God's purpose in having a relationship with us? What is God freely chose, by His own Free will, to give us our own free will? By allowing you to make the choice that you will make, God is respecting you.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by cb


Are you saying that God was a fool to allow us the responsiblity to determine our own destiny? That he should have tweaked the universe so that every single individual would choose God? Isn't this contradictory to God's purpose in having a relationship with us? What is God freely chose, by His own Free will, to give us our own free will? By allowing you to make the choice that you will make, God is respecting you.

You are right. He doesn't want robots.

 

[cb]

Originally posted by DrLao



If God created the universe, and had knowledge of what decisions I would make as He created it, and could affect the outcome of those decisions as He created it, then free will is just an illusion. We are playing out God's script.

If God knew what choices I would make, and somehow "over-rode" my free choice to coerce me to choose him, wouldn't that be a violation of sorts? The Carrie Bradley sitting right here is the Carrie Bradley of reality. Any other Carrie Bradley in a different reality would be a different Carrie Bradley. It may look like me, but it would not be me. Changing just the slightest detail of my life would affect my entire personhood so much that I could no longer be this Carrie Bradley.
it is BECAUSE of the fact that he does NOT change or alter the outcome that our choice is our own. Should God say "Oh, I don't like what Dr. Lao will choose, so let me change things so He must choose differently?"






That seems like a contradiction to me. [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Right...but also, He can use our choices...even evil ones, for His own purposes.

 

[cb]

Soul you said:

"Of course, I wonder, is that answer limiting God? Saying that He couldn't see the future seems limiting at first, but since He lives in an eternal "Now," then there is no (pre). He can see the future only in terms of there being a future, ie, inside our universe, which He can certainly predict, but only AFTER creating us. "

Why can God only see the future after he creates us, if as you acknowledge, he is aware of ALL things, Past, Present and Future?

 

[cb]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Right...but also, He can use our choices...even evil ones, for His own purposes.

right, soul.

which brings me to another point. God allowed us to determine our future (sin) but chose to intervene and save us anyways. God always has the power and authority to intervene.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Because there is no future when He created our souls. There was no time/space...nothing but Him. When He created the Universe, then time existed, and He could see it all played out like the football game.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by cb

which brings me to another point. God allowed us to determine our future (sin) but chose to intervene and save us anyways. God always has the power and authority to intervene.

We are not saved until God says so though. Remember that.

God always has the power and authority to intervene.

Unless intervening interferes with free-will. He won't do that.

 

[cb]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Because there is no future when He created our souls. There was no time/space...nothing but Him. When He created the Universe, then time existed, and He could see it all played out like the football game.

You don't think God knew what would happen before he created it?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by cb


You don't think God knew what would happen before he created it?

How could He know something that is dynamic (human choice) before it exists?

 

[cb]

Originally posted by s0uljah


We are not saved until God says so though. Remember that.



Unless intervening interferes with free-will. He won't do that.

That wasn't my point. My point was that: even tho humanity chose sin for itself, to be its own master and therefore condemn itself to death. God still provided a solution for our mistakes (in Christ)

God has already shown us what we must do to be saved. as long as we do that, he has promised, he will save us.

 

[cb]

Originally posted by s0uljah


How could He know something that is dynamic (human choice) before it exists?

Because he knows all there is to know. God never says "i wonder what will happen if..." but states "this will happen if..."

 

[cb]

God knew the reality of his creation before he created it.