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Does God have free will?

Harry3142

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Oshulten-

We Christians believe that God originated all that exists today, including free will. So to ask if free will controls his own activity is like saying that Michaelangelo is The Pieta instead of being the artist who brought it into existence.

Is God a personal God, with emotions as well as intellect? Yes, he is. But both his emotions and his intellect are on a far higher plane than ours. In his encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge, Pope Pius XI wrote of God's being a personal God rather than a 'thing' or an icon. As The Author of Justice he is to be answered to, and as The Epitome of Mercy he is to be approached with gratitude.

I hope this helps you better understand us. God bless-
 
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drich0150

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Drich0150, please. Your words echo ironically in my ears. I asked you, as christians, a question - regarding the nature of God - in order for me to explore Christianity through real christians.
According to your follow up questions your interest only goes as far as your current interpretation of "real" Christianity allows you to argue a specific point.

What you believe interests me, but even more so why you believe what you believe.
Again your exploration of Why we believe as we do, seems to be limited to one specific dimension of the topic. You have turned a blind eye to anything you are not willing to argue.

Indeed, it was a closed question. But a simple yes/no answer does not satisfy me.
To which yes or no response are you referring?

I then ask you (the people on this forum in general) why you answered the way you did, and this is the reply I get from you, drich.
The reason you got the reply you did is because you are selectively sniping the answers that you can deconstruct with your general understanding of "free will." While ignoring anything that does not fit the argument you have prepared yourself to argue or "explore."

If exploration of Christianity stops at swallowing whatever you answer without further questioning of how/why and so on, then it is you that do not allow yourself thought outside a very specific set of parameters. If you can't provide reasons for you belief, than what do you support your beliefs on? That's all I ask.
Are you even responding to the same post that i am referring to? When I directly confronted your definitions of freewill all interest in the subject matter seemed to be lost until someone else made a comment that fit your favored definition of the term. Your "interest" in our beliefs seem to go only as far as you can turn our beliefs on us. You seem to have little interest in a understanding that has you questioning you own interpretations of this subject matter. This is beyond hypocritical behavior, and this is exactly why I said your efforts more closely resembled a witch hunt more closely than what ever it is you have fooled yourself into believing you are doing.

You ask me about my behavior. I ask you, have I been rude?
Selectively deconstructing certain arguments, and pretending others were over looked... Yes that is rude.

Have I insulted you?
You insult those who are making an effort to address your question, by picking apart answers and not addressing them as a whole.

Have I been judging in any way in this thread?
This entire post was a personal judgment in that you deemed or judged the situation necessary to turn my topic of conversation from comparing the biblical definition of free will with your definition of free will, into a what looks like a personal assault, which affords you the right to question or JUDGE my approach to your actions here. So yes you have judge in this thread!

If you prefer a monologue - you talking without listening to response - then why are you even on this forum?
Perhaps you are confused to the nature of this specific area of the forum. Although it is encouraged for the OP to ask questions, this is not a debate forum. Nor is this a place to force Christianity to accept a secular understanding of your topic of choice. This is a place where non believers come to Explore Christianity. You ask us questions and We give You answers.. Kinda like an interactive Monologue.

If you think that a polite, reasonable dialog is a 'witch hunt', how can you even function as a human being together with other people with different beliefs than yours?
I simply pointed out that your actions more closely resemble a witch hunt rather than a "polite dialog." I never said you are burning people for being a witch.

It's funny hearing about persecution from a follower of the hands down largest religion on the planet.
One does not have to be in the minority to be persecuted, your actions prove this to be true.

Your and certain other's belittling attitude soils this thread. Let us please adopt a polite tone of voice, where we can talk about things on equal and fair ground. Thank you, and sorry for the understandably, albeit necessary, less-than-pleasant reply.
If my actions are considered belittling, yet they accurately portray your actions here in this thread, then what does that say about your actions?
 
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OzSpen

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Oshulten,
By Ozpen:

Now again, there is the problem. Let's say God acts on the tenets justice, holiness and righteousness. Did God decide to favor these values above others? Why did he choose them? Could he have had chosen any other values just as likely? If not, why not?

By DCJazz:

In what way is free-will a finite definition of anything? Either we can describe God in our own terminology, or we can't. If we can, and we do, then my question whether or not God possesses free will is perfectly valid and should be treated as such. If not, then we cannot give God attributes like just, holy and righteous. Indeed, we cannot know or describe God at all.
You are demonstrating that you are not here to by "exploring Christianity". Whenever I present evidence of the attributes of God that quash your idea of human free will, you retort with these kinds of human-centred views of God.

God is absolute and all of his attributes are absolute. God is not into partiality. He is absolutely just and righteous.

The facts are that we can describe God, limited by what he has revealed in the Scriptures.

I have already defined human free-will to you. That cannot apply to God because he is NOT human.

Oz
 
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Oshulten

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I reread the thread, let me sum it up:

a) I ask you: 'Does God have free will'?', also putting forth the dilemma that even if he can act on his will, he can't choose what he wants his will to be.

b) Several of you respond: 'Of course God has free will!'.

salida:
God is sovern and doesn't need anybody.

Jpark:
Of course He has free will. He is the only one who has permanent free will and is not under predetermination (God's Omniscience does not apply to His decisions.

drich0150:
We can only persume that the nature of God dictates His own will. Because Who could bind the will of God other than God Himself? So any action He takes is of His own accord.

OzSpen:
God is absolutely just, holy, righteous & truthful. They are attributes that dictate the content of His will!

c) I then add: 'I think, on this level of free will, that free will is logically impossible due to its inherent deterministic or random nature.

d) You argue that logic shouldn't apply to God in this case, that he is above logic. You also argue that I can't use a 'human' definition of free will, that it's the definition of free will that is faulty instead of God.

drich0150:
If "our" definition of "Free will" will not allow for a logically possible explanation of it then perhaps it is your definition of "freewill" that is in error.

Christos Anesti:
God is beyond the catagories of "free will" and "determinism".

Ozpen:
You are using a human category, "free will". How can the Sovereign Lord of the universe have free will? As an atheist, you are using the wrong category.
But we are not talking about free-will that is anything like human free-will.

Ozpen:
Free will is defined differently by different people. Logically, there seems to be only three basic views on this topic: (1) Self-caused actions that can be labelled, self-determinism; (2) Acts caused by another person (determinism); and (3) Acts that have no cause whatsoever (indeterminism). Indeterminism violates the law of causality, meaning that every event has a cause. Determinism violates the concept of free will since any moral agent is not causing or is responsible for his or her own actions.

---

You have not shown that my definition of free will is faulty. Instead, you say it doesn't apply to God, without giving a good reason why. You also spend time and energy on telling me I'm not exploring Christianity, feeling persecuted, calling me rude and insulting.

If you want to sidestep the issue by excluding logic to make your world view fit together, then fine by me. I had just hoped that you had a better explanation. If this is indeed all I will get (plus the scorn), then I don't have much to to add.

---

Harry:
Oshulten-

We Christians believe that God originated all that exists today, including free will. So to ask if free will controls his own activity is like saying that Michaelangelo is The Pieta instead of being the artist who brought it into existence.

Is God a personal God, with emotions as well as intellect? Yes, he is. But both his emotions and his intellect are on a far higher plane than ours. In his encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge, Pope Pius XI wrote of God's being a personal God rather than a 'thing' or an icon. As The Author of Justice he is to be answered to, and as The Epitome of Mercy he is to be approached with gratitude.

I hope this helps you better understand us. God bless-

Thank you for your contribution to this topic Harry. However, If God created free will, then he couldn't have done it out of free will, because free will didn't exist when he created it. Personally I don't think that free will can be created any more than anger or sorrow can be created; I think these feelings arise from intelligence and cannot exist independently from them.
 
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drich0150

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In post 13 i outline the biblical definition of freewill, and put in contrast of your working definition of free will, even in your "recap" you seem to have over looked the biblical definition. I believe it is because this definition in a religious context invalidates the arguments you have prepared yourself with, there by revoking your "hunting license." Because you are here to hunt and not explore. I believe it is easier for you to simply call the person who is point out this hypocritical behavior, Character into question. Then ignore any evidence that has you look at your beliefs as you would have us examine ours, rather than address the short comings, and hypocritical nature that can be found through out your argument.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Okey, let me try to define freewill. Actions not influenced by other forces. Meaning that freewill can only exist outside of a deterministic universe. So when God take action, does he always do it for specific reasons - like his own emotions, the condition of humanity or for the sake or order? Or are his actions taken arbitrarily, based on nothing but random whims?

Either extreme you approach the situation from, God does not seem to be excepted from these limitations of any kind of will.

What exactly is a 'whim'? This notion seems pretty vague.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I read the text put forth by Christos; I'm sorry to say I didn't quite grasp it.



Then what kind of free-will is it?



I have read parts of both the Old Testament and the New Testamente. It describes God's actions and speech, and his followers and enemies reaction and relation to him. From the scriptures I understand one can make a range of interpretations about the nature of God. However, I don't want to be caught up in a quote-war here. Could someone please sum up the essentials?

Again, why doesn't our definition of free-will apply to God? Where I stand now, I find it difficult to see any free-will logically possible. We have causality (determinism) and chance (indeterminism), but simply no third option. There's no magic involved. What is free-will to you?

Why are you using this kind of 'speech-act'? If you don't know what 'free-will' means with a clear and distinct denotation, why would you ask if anyone else knows either? May I ask who you think in history has 'attained' a clear and distinct notion of 'free-will'? I find it funny that we attempt to utilize deductive conclusions when our premises are filled with vague notions that NO ONE has ever pinned down. Doesn't this strike you as a little odd?
 
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bling

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Hi Christians!

Do you think that God has his own free will? He can certainly act out on whatever he wants to do. But why does he want certain things? Is he the one to decide, or is he a helpless victim of his own needs and whims?

This is actually a good question if you really want to know.

I might define “free will” differently, but let’s just try to understand “God’s free will”. All of God’s decisions are controlled by the most powerful force in all universes and that is “Love” (Godly type Love as defined by Christ’s words and deeds). BUT God is Love so He is also that force, so He is controlling Himself.

God is not arbitrary or does He do anything for His own sake that is not being done for the sake of others (as Love, God is the ultimate in unselfishness). Just as Jesus was compelled by Love to do all He did and Christian’s are to be compelled by Love to do all they do (unselfishness).
This makes God totally consistent and always doing the absolute best thing that can be done (so totally predictable). So does that mean to you God does not have free will? The thing is this “Love” is by choice, so God chooses to Love (that is part of the definition of Godly type Love and not some strictly “emotional” type of love). God has the power to “choose” and do something else, but will always chose to the one best thing for the sake of some others.
 
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